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You don't think that taking rookie UFAs and developing them into backups doesn't take coaching abilitiy?
It depends on the actual "quality of depth" they provide Coach. Just warm bodies? Or actual "quality depth".
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You don't think that it takes coaching ability to, in a few short months, develop a DE into an OLB? I never said they were FULLY DEVEOPED and at their PEAK, I said that RAC is the one that is responsible for their developing into what they have.
Once again Coach,your very own words were "That doesn't happen. It takes three years". Now you claim it only takes a few months. You said it and I comprehended it. The problem is,those comments totaly contradict themselves.
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You see, Pit, some people can read and comprehend, others want to have debates and discussions. You....want to be right so bad you'll twist anything. 
And some people shift their opinions and what they say depending on which one suits their arguement.
Next time actually try breaking my post down and try answering the questions. Because I bring up points,ask questions and in return just spout generalisations and seem to call that a debate. Well,it's not.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Let's try this again Damon.
No, let's not... Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall,,,,, You win, RAC Sucks, he should be shot and his remains spread over the meadowlands in the corner where Jimmy Hoffa is buried in the cement..
If you knew anything, you would know that you don't know EVERYTHING,,, for whatever reason you can't get it through you skull that you can't in all fairness judge RAC on those years where he was handed inferoir players.... But you don't get it,, and I can't get it through to you,,
SO YOU WIN,,, HE SUCKS! YOU ARE RIGHT! I AM WRONG,,
Feel like a man now Pit? 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No Coach, he doesn't have a link to anything. He's going by what MOST on this board know to be true. Are you one of the MOST. 
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I would agree with you Damon, but I don't know anything. I don't have enough posts.
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[Granted Romeo hasnt been perfect. But the guy is learning. He's growing as a coach just like our team is growing as a team.
And exactly what have you seen to indicate he's "growing as a coach"?
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You can bet that if we fire Romeo and he ever did get another head coaching job. He'd do well. Remember, Belichek was run out of town because of a bad decision. Not completely, but that didnt help. When he left, he had learned and was ready. But he didnt have his own hole to dig out of.
I also remember Palmer and Butch. What great NFL head coaches are they NOW again? Bud,that's a two way street. I've seen nothing to indicate RAC would succeed elsewhere somewhere else,have you?
For every "one Bellicheck" there's 10 Palmers and Butches. I understand what you're saying. But the odds of your assertion here being correct aren't that good if you look at the law of averages.
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Right now Romeo is digging out of his own hole (I got your analogy daman). Thats a little tougher than going to someone else's flat ground and building a hill with it. He's filling in his own hole. Let him try. Why not right?
If our D giving up 45 points last week is "digging out of a hole" it's only half a shovel full. There are two sides of the ball to consider wheather you're digging a hole or filling it in.
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Sound coaching or not, its improving, and if thats what we want from the team, then we should allow the coach that same luxury. Improvement is the name of the game. Romeo isnt regressing, he is progressing too
You base that improvement on one game rather than the body of work? Maybe this "improvement that you speak of" is a little pre mature based on one game. I hope you're right,but IMO the jury is still out by a long shot.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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For every "one Bellicheck" there's 10 Palmers and Butches.
Are those the names of the video camera`s he uses...  
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I will say this you all make alittle sense but none of you are 100% right. Rac has had very little talent and Rac has shown very little improvement. The things that come to mind when I think about how he has done is the record against our division opponents, the coin flip (which by the way reminds me of a gut feeling) and the unemotional way of coaching. I'm sorry but I'm old school and I believe a foot up the behind every once and awhile will get some attention wether it be a player, a referee, an opposing team or the media  Lets just give him this season and see what happens at the end. At this point what do we have to lose?
Last edited by Corpusdawg; 09/20/07 01:37 AM.
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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I would agree with you Damon, but I don't know anything.
I don't have enough posts.
Now your catching on,, you won't know enough till you hit roughly 2000 posts! Statistically speaking that is 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lets just give him this season and see what happens at the end. At this point what do we have to lose?
Take all the bull out of it, and that's all I've been trying to say! Thanks Corpus 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Can you honestly believe that the veteran players haven't been the leaders on the field all along? Are you suggesting it's been the rookies that RAC has asked to lead this team on the field up untill just last week? He asked the "rookies" to "lead by example" in training camp?
In all of my sports experience, coaches haven't had to ASK anybody to lead... natural leaders just assume the role... Usually they are the more veteran players but not always, usually they are the better players but not always.... If RAC noticed a void in leadership and called out some of the vets to step up, then I commend him for that.
yebat' Putin
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Pit, Maybe we are asking too much of you. Because if you had ACTUALLY PLAYED some team sports, you would know that a coach will ask/tell the vets of the team to step it up! He will pull either certain players or groups of players and talk to them about being a leader on the field and in practice. Maybe since you never played a sport, or a team sport, you would not know that because anyone who has played past junior high football KNOWS that! Quote:
Can you tell me how this shouldn't be what was done all along? Can you honestly believe that the veteran players haven't been the leaders on the field all along? Are you suggesting it's been the rookies that RAC has asked to lead this team on the field up untill just last week? He asked the "rookies" to "lead by example" in training camp?
After a loss like the Pittsburgh game, RAC went to vets and told them they need to lead by example and step it up in practice and on game day. Now Pit, ever since this thread has been started, I can have given quotes from PLAYERS on what RAC has done, ALL you have done is give "Pit opinions" on RAC of which you cannot back up one bit. Now if you cannot understand this last quote from Lewis, go to ANY high school coach/college coach and I know you do not know a pro coach so hey -> and ask them if they have not done the same thing!
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I would agree with you Damon, but I don't know anything.
I don't have enough posts.
Now your catching on,, you won't know enough till you hit roughly 2000 posts! Statistically speaking that is
It always helps when you use the same screen name too.
It's pretty simple Damon. When you take everything that a corperation tells the press at their press confrences at face value,you're pretty much clueless.
He even finaly,after debating the topic to death, admited that he really didn't expect Phil to NOT support RAC publicly. But it took a while. So if ATT....I mean whatever name he's going by now,wants to try to cover his tracks on that one,so be it.
But it was a VERY silly point to make. And yes,anyone who actually believes Phil WOULDN'T continue to publicly support RAC right up untill the end,ARE clueless. 2000 posts or 5000 posts. It really makes no difference. Maybe you should learn that too.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Pit,
Maybe we are asking too much of you. Because if you had ACTUALLY PLAYED some team sports, you would know that a coach will ask/tell the vets of the team to step it up! He will pull either certain players or groups of players and talk to them about being a leader on the field and in practice. Maybe since you never played a sport, or a team sport, you would not know that because anyone who has played past junior high football KNOWS that!
Once again,you know NOTHING of what you speak! I've played in a LOT of team sports. I'm not some 150lb. wet behind the ears kid that hasn't played sports. Here's the problem with your logic. You don't WAIT untill the second game of the SEASON to do that!
That's done before training camp begins. That's done at the beginning of pre season. If RAC waited untill game two to do that? As you stated,that's "standard operating procedure" from day one in practice. Not something that a GOOD coach waits untill he's "blown out" in game one in the regular season to do.
You should know that since you're such a "team sport" guy. Because I was a team sports guy and I've known it for decades!
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After a loss like the Pittsburgh game, RAC went to vets and told them they need to lead by example and step it up in practice and on game day. Now Pit, ever since this thread has been started, I can have given quotes from PLAYERS on what RAC has done, ALL you have done is give "Pit opinions" on RAC of which you cannot back up one bit. Now if you cannot understand this last quote from Lewis, go to ANY high school coach/college coach and I know you do not know a pro coach so hey -> and ask them if they have not done the same thing!
So this great head coach didn't ask them to be the leaders in training camp? He didn't ask them to be the "leaders" in the pre season? He waited untill they were BLOWN OUT to do what SHOULD have been done from day one in training camp!??
Bravo?
You keep defending such moronic things. This should have been done two frickin months cago!
Yes I can.
Did he or did he not flip a fricking coin rather than make a studious,educated coaching decision?
Did he not play "musical chairs" with our QB's while trying to install a new O scheme at the same time. Only to look like an idiot when the deason started by starting Frye and trading him off just a few days later!?
Of course he did, Only everybody here wishes to minimise and rationalise just how moronic that really was. Well you go ahead and do that. The rest of the league knows better and got a good laugh about it. Sorry you're too much of a homer to face reality about these things. Not my problem.
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During the first two seasons,was there ANY evidence of half time adjustments?
Did he or did he not publicly state that this team "wasn't good enough to come back from a 17 point deficit in less than one half? Then the very NEXT week our team scored 27 points IN one half? Way to "talk up your team" huh? NO,just a way to make excuses for yourself!
Those are ALL facts and there's plenty more.
I understand the quote from Lewis. But if RAC didn't say the EXACT same thing to the veterans from day one of training camp,he's a total moron! Do you understand THAT?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Did he or did he not publicly state that this team "wasn't good enough to come back from a 17 point deficit in less than one half? Then the very NEXT week our team scored 27 points IN one half? Way to "talk up your team" huh? NO,just a way to make excuses for yourself!
let me know the last time they have scored 27 in one half, and let me know when they do it again please...
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Pit, Quote:
Once again,you know NOTHING of what you speak! I've played in a LOT of team sports. I'm not some 150lb. wet behind the ears kid that hasn't played sports. Here's the problem with your logic. You don't WAIT untill the second game of the SEASON to do that!
That's done before training camp begins. That's done at the beginning of pre season. If RAC waited untill game two to do that? As you stated,that's "standard operating procedure" from day one in practice. Not something that a GOOD coach waits untill he's "blown out" in game one in the regular season to do.
I do not know how much you weighed when you played whatever you played but tell us Pit, How do you know that RAC did not do that during practice. What logic and fact do you have to say he did not do that during training camp?? But what we do know is that he called them together again and drove home the point, LIKE A COACH DOES!!! Again, go ask a coach if they do this!! Or maybe back when you were playing the coach only spoke in these terms in the summer practice!! -> That might explain some things and also explain why what ever team you played on lost alot!!!!!
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Did he not play "musical chairs" with our QB's while trying to install a new O scheme at the same time. Only to look like an idiot when the deason started by starting Frye and trading him off just a few days later!?
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Well lets see here, on another board, P. Macnamoran(sp) basically explains why DA and CF were flipped because neither were commanding the starting position!! ( You know, if you look in the archives, you will see a certain poster saying this!!)
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Did he or did he not publicly state that this team "wasn't good enough to come back from a 17 point deficit in less than one half? Then the very NEXT week our team scored 27 points IN one half? Way to "talk up your team" huh? NO,just a way to make excuses for yourself!
OK, please tell us before this week where RAC had ANY historical info on DA or the offense pulling 27 points in a second half of a game??
You know, maybe your right, the debate team or the chess team or the cross country team you played on does not get veteran leadership from their coaches during the season!.. BUT people who played football know this happens!!
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But if RAC didn't say the EXACT same thing to the veterans from day one of training camp,he's a total moron!
You've already made up your mind that RAC is a total moron.. everything else just gets twisted to fit that opinion.... His own players are stating that what RAC did had a positive impact, you turn it into a negative because he should have done it on day 1...
I still maintain that most coaches don't "appoint" leaders... leaders just lead... and most coaches don't get involved unless there is a problem...
yebat' Putin
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Pit,
You know, maybe your right, the debate team or the chess team or the cross country team you played on does not get veteran leadership from their coaches during the season!.. BUT people who played football know this happens!!
It's obvious that Pit is talking from his arse..
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Did he or did he not publicly state that this team "wasn't good enough to come back from a 17 point deficit in less than one half? Then the very NEXT week our team scored 27 points IN one half? Way to "talk up your team" huh? NO,just a way to make excuses for yourself!
let me know the last time they have scored 27 in one half, and let me know when they do it again please...
Great point!
So how in the hell are we going to win with our D giving up 34 and 45 points respectively? Sound like a promising proposition to you?
Of course not,you just obviously pointed out our O isn't consistant enough to do that.
Thanks for your reply!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Fraser HAS become "quality" depth. He's hardly a "warm body". Thanks for proving my point.
I said it takes three years to truly judge a player. That doesn't mean you cannot see that they are progressING. See that tense there, Pit? I know you are trying hard to twist words to look right. Again, it takes three years to evaluate the talent, but you can see how they are developing and progressing during that time.
I did break down your post. It's just that your double talk isn't debate. You think debate is saying "Pit's right". That's not debate. That's soothing your ego. I broke it down and you then try to twist it to still appear right. Continue the childishness, I'm done. You're points have been refuted, your questions answered and you will continue to twist things to try to be right.
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I do not know how much you weighed when you played whatever you played but tell us Pit, How do you know that RAC did not do that during practice. What logic and fact do you have to say he did not do that during training camp?? But what we do know is that he called them together again and drove home the point, LIKE A COACH DOES!!! Again, go ask a coach if they do this!! Or maybe back when you were playing the coach only spoke in these terms in the summer practice!! ->
So you agree with me. Thanks. This wasn't something new and not some "brilliant coaching move" that has just occured. It's something even high school coaches do. They tell you that you're expected to be the leader from the start of practice and remind you when you have a bad game. Hell,I bet even Coach B does that!
That was my point. Jamal was talking up the coach. Good for him. But when taken in its context,it's not some "major NFL head coaching accomplishment". Just standard operating procedure. Hell it even happenned in Jr. High football
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that might explain some things and also explain why what ever team you played on lost alot!!!!!
I wasn't a loser in team sports. I was one of the team leaders. Playing both FB and LB. Your personal insults show just how weak you are and how desperate you've become. Quit acting like a punk with this type of talk. If you have nothing legitimate to say,at least quit making yourself appear to be such an ass by such juvenile comments.
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Well lets see here, on another board, P. Macnamoran(sp) basically explains why DA and CF were flipped because neither were commanding the starting position!! ( You know, if you look in the archives, you will see a certain poster saying this!!)
What one says and what one sees can be two different things.
If you KNOW neithr QB is the legitimate answer,you CHOOSE the lesser of the two evils,the one who fits the system best and you move on. You know? Just like what "most coaches doñ like you said above?
I've NEVER seen a coach flip a coin and go right up untill the last game of pre season with such a lack of indecisiveness WHILE trying to install a new offensice scheme. At least not a GOOD coach.
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OK, please tell us before this week where RAC had ANY historical info on DA or the offense pulling 27 points in a second half of a game??
He didn't. And that's quite a bit of the point. Everybody talks about improvement. How much improvement will we see with our D giving up 34 and 45 points? And remember,this is the unit that HAS been together from day 1 with the same scheme and DC. AND with Wimbley and DQ in their second year.
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You know, maybe your right, the debate team or the chess team or the cross country team you played on does not get veteran leadership from their coaches during the season!.. BUT people who played football know this happens!!
You know that any time anyone plays keyboard commandos it makes them look like fools don't you? Well if you don't,you do now. Because face to face? You couldn't back up that BS if your life depended on it! And wouldn't even have the kahunnas to say it! But behind the safety of your keyboard,you lash out insults. What a brave little man.
Because I don't look,act,or move like a chess player. Remember that just in case for future refrance.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If you KNOW neithr QB is the legitimate answer,you CHOOSE the lesser of the two evils,the one who fits the system best and you move on. You know? Just like what "most coaches do" like you said above?
So which one was the lesser of two evils? Which one should he have chosen?
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So you agree with me. Thanks. This wasn't something new and not some "brilliant coaching move" that has just occured. It's something even high school coaches do. They tell you that you're expected to be the leader from the start of practice and remind you when you have a bad game. Hell,I bet even Coach B does that!
Most coaches aren't "great" because they are cutting edge innovators... most coaches are great because they do the little things well.. RAC does a little thing well, it pays off, and you can't give him any credit for it...
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Everybody talks about improvement. How much improvement will we see with our D giving up 34 and 45 points?
We won Pit, the defense did enough to win... I know that means painfully little to you, but some people actually think winning is important. In most games they will likely have to do more if we expect to win, but then most of us expect them to do more... We will have to wait and see how the next few weeks go.
yebat' Putin
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Fraser HAS become "quality" depth. He's hardly a "warm body". Thanks for proving my point.
If he's still on the roster next year,your point will be proven. Untill then,it's just an opinion. Like I said,you claim we can't afford major injuries because our depth isn't great. Then you say our depth is great to suit your arguement.
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I said it takes three years to truly judge a player. That doesn't mean you cannot see that they are progressING. See that tense there, Pit? I know you are trying hard to twist words to look right.
Ah,the old "twisting" line again for the 5000th time. You really need to work on getting some new material coach.
See,your claim is that in "just a matter of months" he was taught an entire new position and turned into a "sack machine".
Since that was just a "step" in his progress,what in these first two games show you he's "progressed further"? And I can't believe you would deny God the credit for the NATURAL talent he was given to begin wityh. But you did. You think RAC deserves more credit for his success in a few short months,than God gave this kid. Pure silliness. Phil knew he was a perfect fit and drafted him "based on that talent God gave him". Phil was right and I believe you are wrong.
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Again, it takes three years to evaluate the talent, but you can see how they are developing and progressing during that time.
Exactly. And a kid doesn't get 11 sacks in his rookie year based on strictly coaching. That's not "gradual progress due to coaching". If so,what improvements have you seen in him from last year to this year? Surely in an entire off season,according to the AMAZING job RAC is doing,in his second year he should be MUCH better. What? 15-20 sacks this year Coach? That WOULD be "progress" would it not?
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I did break down your post. It's just that your double talk isn't debate. You think debate is saying "Pit's right".
How is that any different than you Coach. At least I don't use the terms "twisting,ignorant and knowledge" in every post like a frickin broken record because it's the only ammunition to base my points on.
And all I did in return s break your post down and respond. Now? It's back to the same old Coach. Hey,at least you actually tried to have a legitmate debate with ONE POST!
That's at least SOME improvement!
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That's not debate. That's soothing your ego. I broke it down and you then try to twist it to still appear right.
You! Coach B talking about somebody ELSE soothing THEIR ego? Now that's RICH right there!
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Continue the childishness, I'm done.
Ah,I see. Now you've added a new diss to your vocabulary. Childish". You're done? Do you know how many times I've heard that same BS from you only to have you continue? Yeah,I'll believe THAT when I see it!
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You're points have been refuted, your questions answered and you will continue to twist things to try to be right.
Nobody "twisted" anything. Debates are something that go back and forth. You have nothing left to offer. You didn't "refute" anything. You gave your "opinion" to which I countered. Now you have nothing to fall back on but your usual line of tripe...............You know
You twisted this
I refuted that
Childish
and blah,blah,blah
The same old BS you do to everyone who disagrees with you. Nothing new or unexpected from one of the usual suspects.Just the same old worn out BS you've fallen back on for years now
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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It always helps when you use the same screen name too
Not sure what that means,,, and since I don't know what that means, I'm guessing that's why the rest of your rant has no meaning to me....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So which one was the lesser of two evils? Which one should he have chosen?
Well,I thought Charlie might be. Of course I don't get paid to "make decisions" as an NFL head coach. But from everything I've read,Chud,you know,the guy who RUNS the O,thought DA was. It was quite appearant to some in the FO and coaching staff (again,from everything I've read) that DA was a much better fit than Frye.
Point is,as much as everyone wishes to dismiss the coin toss and the perpetuated QB competition,let me pose this to you.
You have a pretty good job and profession from my understanding. BTW- I'm happy for you and your family that you do! That's a wonderfull thing!
But let me ask you this,or any professional in their respective profession...................
How far would you have gotten if it took you 8-10 weeks to make a decision at your job? How about if you let your fellow workers,bosses and firms within your profession KNOW PUBLICLY that you were going to flip a coin to make a decision?
No,it wouldn't be good for you. It wouldn't have been good for me in my profession either. That I'm most positive of. Yet everyone wishes to rationalise it for RAC? That makes no sense at all.
No matter which one he decided upon,he gets paid to weigh his options and make those decisions. I would tend to lead in the direction that the guy who is installing the new O most likely knows what type of qualities he needs in his QB given his choices. He was stubborn with Mo and from my understanding with Frye too. BOTH turned out quite poorly. But I don't know enough inside information to make that call. I know if it WAS my job to make a decision,I would make it. And I believe you would too.
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Most coaches aren't "great" because they are cutting edge innovators... most coaches are great because they do the little things well.. RAC does a little thing well, it pays off, and you can't give him any credit for it...
And yes,since the FA era,MOST successfull NFL head coaches ARE successfull because of "great coaching skills and schemes". Adapting to changing OC's and DC's. To fluxuating rosters. Game planning to take advantage of their oponents weaknesses and playing to their own strengths and last but certainly not least,great half time adjustments. Actually,I call THOSE the "fundamental little things" at the "NFL level". Once again,I NEVER SAID "cutting edge innovators" you did. But they do need to be VERY fundamentaly sound and able to adapt.
And yes,I give him credit for reminding the veterans he expects them to be the leaders on the field. But come on DC,in the grand scheme of things.like I stated,that was done on my Jr. High and high school football teams. It's not anything EVERY coach doesn't do in every level of the game. Even the BAD coaches remind the team leaders that they're expected to lead by example.
So while I do give him credit for it,since my high school football coach did the very same thing,are you saying it's something that deserves major credit? If so,then are you saying my high school football coach is worthy of coaching in the NFL?
I mean come on,let's keep it in its proper perspective here shall we?
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Everybody talks about improvement. How much improvement will we see with our D giving up 34 and 45 points?
We won Pit, the defense did enough to win
Oh quite the contrary. The offense did enough to keep the defense from LOSING. Show me how many times a D has given up 45 points and a team wins? What are the odds of that again?
No,the D didn't "do just enough to win". The O did enough to keep the D from losing.
Come on DC,they gave up 45 points and THEY did enough to win? Surely you jest.
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... I know that means painfully little to you, but some people actually think winning is important.
I LIKE to see us win. But at the same time,I like to be honest with myself about how and why we win or lose.
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In most games they will likely have to do more if we expect to win, but then most of us expect them to do more... We will have to wait and see how the next few weeks go.
"Most games"? I "hope to see" our D do better. But I don't "expect it". You see,in order to have "expectations" I have to see some signs that actually lead me to those expectations.
Hope on the other hand,you do not need such signs. Hope is something you have just because you WANT it to improve. I have that hope,but have seen nothing to lead me to have expectations.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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It always helps when you use the same screen name too
Not sure what that means,,, and since I don't know what that means, I'm guessing that's why the rest of your rant has no meaning to me....
That one line was directed at hurricaned ,but nice way to diss an entire post based on that one line.
Here is "the valid point" that I made that you "claim" to be a rant. When I rant,you'll know it. This isn't a "rant".
Try again......................
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But it was a VERY silly point to make. And yes,anyone who actually believes Phil WOULDN'T continue to publicly support RAC right up untill the end,ARE clueless. 2000 posts or 5000 posts. It really makes no difference.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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That one line was directed at hurricaned ,but nice way to diss an entire post based on that one line.
well, Ok but I still don't know what it means,,,,
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That one line was directed at hurricaned ,but nice way to diss an entire post based on that one line.
I'm pretty much "dissing" everything you say at this point,,, You are making little sense so I am having a hard time relating...
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Try again......................
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But it was a VERY silly point to make. And yes,anyone who actually believes Phil WOULDN'T continue to publicly support RAC right up untill the end,ARE clueless. 2000 posts or 5000 posts. It really makes no difference.
And I didn't say that so again, you are confusing me with someone who cares.,,
#GMSTRONG
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So while I do give him credit for it,since my high school football coach did the very same thing,are you saying it's something that deserves major credit? If so,then are you saying my high school football coach is worthy of coaching in the NFL?
No Pit, your high school football coach has to be 85 years old by now...
My point is that his players love him, he did rally his vets to lead, he did come back after a brutal demoralizing loss and get his team prepared and pumped up enough to win a division game, he does appear to have KW2 and BE under control and concentrating on just playing good football.... so he is doing some things right. What else has he done as far as schemes and personnel? I don't know, I'm not in Berea, I'm not in the lockerroom... If you can give me some examples of bad halftime adjustments or lack of halftime adjustments I'm more than willing to hear them....
and as for his record, yea, he's 12-22... answer me this question, in how many of those 34 games would you say we were the more talented team or at least even with our opponent? Obviously it's subjective but what is your estimation?
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"Most games"? I "hope to see" our D do better. But I don't "expect it". You see,in order to have "expectations" I have to see some signs that actually lead me to those expectations.
Hope on the other hand,you do not need such signs. Hope is something you have just because you WANT it to improve. I have that hope,but have seen nothing to lead me to have expectations.
So you expect that by the end of the year, our defense will have given up an average of 35+ points per game? Because from what I've seen, from the players we have from last year, I DO expect our defense to get better. I expect it, I don't hope for it.
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And I didn't say that so again, you are confusing me with someone who cares.,,
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I would agree with you Damon, but I don't know anything.
I don't have enough posts.
Now your catching on,, you won't know enough till you hit roughly 2000 posts! Statistically speaking that is
"But it was a VERY silly point to make. And yes,anyone who actually believes Phil WOULDN'T continue to publicly support RAC right up untill the end,ARE clueless. 2000 posts or 5000 posts. It really makes no difference."
Yes,Damon,you said that he doesn't know enough untill he has 2000 posts and that he's catching on. That's EXACTLY what you said.
To which I replied that the amount of his posts had nothing to do with the premise of my point.
So at least we're clear on what you DID say now. So you go right ahead and "don't care". But you're not going to sit here and claim Mr.Iinnocent when my response was quite relivant to your post. Jeesh man,a little touchy today aren't you?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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No Pit, your high school football coach has to be 85 years old by now...
Okay,well ya got me there. Point taken. Hell,I don't even know if he's still alive now that you bring it up.
I'll have to ask around next time I go see them play.
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My point is that his players love him, he did rally his vets to lead, he did come back after a brutal demoralizing loss and get his team prepared and pumped up enough to win a division game, he does appear to have KW2 and BE under control and concentrating on just playing good football....
Firstly,"liking a coach" and him being "a good coach" are in no way correlated to one another. So I can't see why this is a point of contention. I mean the players in San Diego liked Marty too. One was 4-12 while the other was 14-2. And no,I fully understand we aren't as talented as the Chargers. But my point is,just because your players "like you" doesn't make you a qualified NFL head coach. It makes you a nice guy. Hell,I think RAC is one helluva nice guy too from everything I know about him.
Secondly,if you think that D was "prepared and pumped up enough to win a division game" I strongly disagree with that premise. ANY D who gives up 45 points is NOT "pumped up and prepared" IMO
Now,I will agree that KW2 and BE looked VERY game ready! Now how much of that was Chud and how much of it was RAC I can't say one way or the other. As you said yourself,"I'm not in Berea and I'm not in the locker room" so I don't know. But irrespective of that,they played well and were prepared.
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If you can give me some examples of bad halftime adjustments or lack of halftime adjustments I'm more than willing to hear them....
I have said this before but you may have missed it. Up untill this year,I've either went to Taggerts or The Springs (BB bar in Springborough OH)
When you're sitting in a bar and everyday Joes like myself can tell you eight out of ten times what play is going to be ran,there's something terribly wrong. And that's EXACTLY what was happenning! I'm sure if a bunch of guys in a bar can predict our playcalling,that oposing NFL DC's aren't going to have much trouble.
And nothing changed at half time. We did just as well predicting the playcalling in the second half because it was exactly the same as the first half. Now you can take that for what it's worth to you. But like I said,the longer the game went on,the more most of them drank. When drunks can tell you what plays we're going to run in the second half,somebody calling those plays simply aren't doing their job. Now once again,that could be on the OC or it could be on the head coach. At least during the first half.
But after half time? If you're failing miserably in the first half,your head coach should intervine during half time and change things up. And don't you find it odd that thses detractors haven't been able to show ONE game where this was done? The ONLY time I saw ANY adjustments is when we were SO far behind at the half,we didn't have any choice but to throw all the time.
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and as for his record, yea, he's 12-22... answer me this question, in how many of those 34 games would you say we were the more talented team or at least even with our opponent? Obviously it's subjective but what is your estimation?
If it were just that simple,I could give you a simple answer. But it's not,so the answer will be a little more complicated.
Here are some examples that I find "out of sync" so to speak.
Here are some things we accomplished in 2005 that cause me frustration in 2007........................................
1 Sep 11 CIN 27 @ CLE 13 FINAL
2 Sep 18 CLE 26 @ GB 24 FINAL
3 Sep 25 CLE 6 @ IND 13 FINAL
4 Bye
5 Oct 09 CHI 10 @ CLE 20 FINAL
6 Oct 16 CLE 3 @ BAL 16 FINAL
7 Oct 23 DET 13 @ CLE 10 FINAL
8 Oct 30 CLE 16 @ HOU 19 FINAL
9 Nov 06 TEN 14 @ CLE 20 FINAL
10 Nov 13 CLE 21 @ PIT 34 FINAL
11 Nov 20 MIA 0 @ CLE 22 FINAL
12 Nov 27 CLE 12 @ MIN 24 FINAL
13 Dec 04 JAC 20 @ CLE 14 FINAL
14 Dec 11 CLE 20 @ CIN 23 FINAL
15 Dec 18 CLE 9 @ OAK 7 FINAL
16 Dec 24 PIT 41 @ CLE 0 FINAL
17 Jan 01 BAL 16 @ CLE 20 FINAL
This was our first year on D during the RAC era. We gave up 41 points one time and 34 points "one time" during this entire season.
I can't say "who we were better than" because honestly,I can't say or remember where these teams were ranked at the time.
What I can say is that we looked "respectable" for the vast majority of the season. I can say we at least "showed up to play" on at least a fairly regular basis. And if you look at the Indy,G.Bay and last Rats game,it didn't seem to depend on the "quality of our oponents" as to wheather we looked competative on a fairly regular basis.
And that's been my entire point. If we were that competative overall in year one of the RAC era,I don't expect to accept LESS in year three!
I understand we're building a new team,but this is when they were working with the bulk of Buthches team. A team they said "didn't fit" their system at all. So yes,I expect as much or MORE now.
It's about improving,getting better and consistancy. Not W's a L's. And we seemed "fairly consistant" in the beginning. Why so many excuses from others that we shouldn't be now?
Were we "better" than Indy? Why hell no! But did we put up a good fight? Yes we did. So I don't plan to settle for less now.
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So you expect that by the end of the year, our defense will have given up an average of 35+ points per game? Because from what I've seen, from the players we have from last year, I DO expect our defense to get better. I expect it, I don't hope for it.
IF they are coached properly,I would have "expected" them to have given up FAR LESS points than they already have.
While you didn't directly come right out and say it,you seemed to indicate that our D is "better than its played". If so,why haven't they played like it? They're not "in a new system". The player turnover on the D hasn't been unusually high. Sure,we've moved some guys around. But how many "new players" do we have on our D that weren't here working in this scheme last year? Maybe not as starters,but know the scheme already? And let's face it,when it comes to Peek and R. Smith,they look BETTER than many who were here last year.
What I can tell you is our D has performed WORSE to this point than they did in 05. Two years later,under the same DC,the same scheme,they're looking worse on the field to this point.
Do I expect them to AVERAGE giving up 35 points a game? Probably not. But I doubt it will be very far from it. Because this is a three year,existing system. Considering that,why would you expect it to get a lot better?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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btw, I just wanted to remind everybody how sad andsorry the Fire Crennel thread was....and I´ll remind you how sad this thread is....hey, it´s my job on here 
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"But it was a VERY silly point to make.
this may sound like a rude question taken out of context,, but were you dropped on your head as a child?
I wonder because it was supposed to be a silly, humorous type comment.. for you to take it seriously,, even just a little tells the whole story about you Pit,,
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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"But it was a VERY silly point to make.
this may sound like a rude question taken out of context,, but were you dropped on your head as a child?
I wonder because it was supposed to be a silly, humorous type comment.. for you to take it seriously,, even just a little tells the whole story about you Pit,,
Unless you were dropped on your head as a child,you would know that making a post on a public message board leaves it open for comment.
It would also mean that when you try to circumvent and point fingers towards others trying to play the "who me?" game for comments that you yourself made,it confirms the drop was in fact made.
Look,you are the one who started the verbal volleys here. If you can't or don't wish to play that game,maybe you shouldn't have began playing it. You threw out a little barb and I threw one back.
Guess what,that's how it works. If I refuse to give RAC a free pass,I sure as hell ain't givin' YOU one!
You made your inference and I responded. That's how it works on a message board in case you have not been made aware of the fact up untill this point.
I guess that's one of those things you'll just have to learn to live with. Or not. It's really none of my concern one way or the other to be honest about it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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btw, I just wanted to remind everybody how sad andsorry the Fire Crennel thread was....and I´ll remind you how sad this thread is....hey, it´s my job on here
I just pray you don't reach retirement age before you get a chance to perform "your job".
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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5 FREAKING pages... WOW... Look Daman and "B", I have stayed out of this whole argument for the simple fact that not ONE person can chage the others opinion... Pitt has WAY more time to commit to this topic than I do but I am GENUINELY curious to know WHAT it is that makes BOTH of you think HAC is a good head coach... "B" you mention that the players LOVE HAC but that unfortunately is THEM talking in interviews and such but ATLEAST YOU answered the question rather than tapdance... Now Daman, I do not expect you to actually provide a LEGITIMATE answer but Hey, I am atleast going to try and ask... What do YOU with your own two eyes SEE in RAC these past few seasons that form your opinion... If it has more to do with continuity than anything else, I can accept that but I am one of those fans that TRIES to see the whole picture of a game... Did the QB have enough protection, was teh interception caused by the QB or the WR with band hands or wrong routes... Things like that... I STILL have YET to see ANY HAC supporter provide ANYTHING that could be seen on gameday... All I see is excuses attributed to his environment... Pitt has been padding his post count to the point where his poor fingers are worn down to his knuckles... Anyway, just trying to see things through your eyes rather than my own and up to this point, I have not seen a post from a Crennel supporter that breaks it down like that... Thanks in advance!
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It always helps when you use the same screen name too
Not sure what that means,,, and since I don't know what that means, I'm guessing that's why the rest of your rant has no meaning to me....
He's refering to me Damon.
He can't convince me to believe his twisting of the facts, so I must be someone else .
I have been using this username since the old board.
However they didn't transfer posts counts in the change over.
I only post occasionally, usually read, unless I feel strongly about the topic.
This is just a ploy by him to attempt to say I'm only disputing him because I'm someone that stalks his posts.
Apparently he's quite full of himself, or really believes what he knows what he's saying .
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I believe much like Dawg44. You guys have done a lot of dancing around the issue. But can't put your fingers on anything RAC does on game day or on a consistant basis that gives any strong indications he will be or has the makings of a quality NFL coach. Just like in the post I'm responding to. Same stuff different day. You're supporting a coach that you can't seem to come up with just cause for your support. Now if you've seen great things in his decision making,game time adjustments,varying the game plan to try to take advantage of a particular teams weak points. Or changing our game plan to play to our strong points with any consistancy,please let me know. Because all of your double talk hasn't done that. Since you seem to know so much,please spell it out for us. I've been asking you to do this for some time now. But rather than do that,you either can't or won't. And simply double talking and avoiding the true nature of the topic hasn't done anything to help further your cause. So have at it!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Firstly,"liking a coach" and him being "a good coach" are in no way correlated to one another. So I can't see why this is a point of contention. I mean the players in San Diego liked Marty too. One was 4-12 while the other was 14-2. And no,I fully understand we aren't as talented as the Chargers. But my point is,just because your players "like you" doesn't make you a qualified NFL head coach. It makes you a nice guy.
Pit, you asked for some of the things that show me that RAC can be a good head coach. Each thing, if you're going to take them one at a time, don't make him a good coach. Being liked by your players is important, over the last couple weeks, I've heard 3 or 4 former players discuss the Tom Coughlin situation... each one has agreed that players will play hard for anybody because they have pride and they are professionals.. each and every one of them admitted though that if you really like your coach, you're that much more willing to go the extra mile, work a little harder, be a little more enthusiastic... so you're right, being liked by your players doesn't make you a good coach, it just makes you better than a similar coach who is not liked.
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Secondly,if you think that D was "prepared and pumped up enough to win a division game" I strongly disagree with that premise. ANY D who gives up 45 points is NOT "pumped up and prepared" IMO
This is what ticks me off about arguing with you, you say that... and then this...
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Now,I will agree that KW2 and BE looked VERY game ready! Now how much of that was Chud and how much of it was RAC I can't say one way or the other. As you said yourself,"I'm not in Berea and I'm not in the locker room" so I don't know.
Something you view as a negative goes on RAC, something you view as a positive is all wishy washy about maybe it's the coordinators that are responsible for that.. I don't know.... geesh, I just can't tell you if RAC had anything to do with that or not... but if something was BAD... then no doubt, it's all on RAC. That's called a double standard Pit and it's one of the things that makes these discussion so damn difficult.
Maybe the defense wasn't pumped up and prepared because Grantham failed.....
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I have said this before but you may have missed it. Up untill this year,I've either went to Taggerts or The Springs (BB bar in Springborough OH)
When you're sitting in a bar and everyday Joes like myself can tell you eight out of ten times what play is going to be ran,there's something terribly wrong. And that's EXACTLY what was happenning! I'm sure if a bunch of guys in a bar can predict our playcalling,that oposing NFL DC's aren't going to have much trouble.
Up until this year there is a lot of truth to that.. Mo was awful.
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And nothing changed at half time. We did just as well predicting the playcalling in the second half because it was exactly the same as the first half. Now you can take that for what it's worth to you. But like I said,the longer the game went on,the more most of them drank.
Again, Mo sucked... OL was horrible... QB play was erratic and often detrimental... what did you expect to happen Pit... run all the plays that don't work in the first half, then go in and adjust to the ones that do work? If the players aren't making plays, plays don't work... adjust all you want.
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This was our first year on D during the RAC era. We gave up 41 points one time and 34 points "one time" during this entire season.
Without doing a lot of research, our schedule was significantly harder in 2006 than it was in 2005, especially based on teams scoring a lot... we played the offensive juggernauts of the NFC North in 2005... and I know we played the AFC West in 2006...
the actual point difference from 2005 to 2006 was that we gave up about 3 more points per game....
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And if you look at the Indy,G.Bay and last Rats game,it didn't seem to depend on the "quality of our oponents" as to wheather we looked competative on a fairly regular basis.
The Packers were 4-12 that year and the Rats were 6-10, both ranked down in the 20s for points scored....
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It's about improving,getting better and consistancy. Not W's a L's. And we seemed "fairly consistant" in the beginning. Why so many excuses from others that we shouldn't be now?
We should be.... but for this season, I'm not ready to jump ship after 2 games.
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What I can tell you is our D has performed WORSE to this point than they did in 05. Two years later,under the same DC,the same scheme,they're looking worse on the field to this point.
To this point.. but it's early. The Steelers game started south and kept going on the offensive side and the defensive side... the Bengals game was a shootout. I don't think we can expect to win shootouts week in and week out, so our D needs to improve... and it will.
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Do I expect them to AVERAGE giving up 35 points a game? Probably not. But I doubt it will be very far from it.
I'll bet it's under 25.... under 25 isn't all that great, but considering the 2 game hole they are in, to get to 25, they'll have to play much better to get there... and I bet they will.
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Pitt has WAY more time to commit to this topic than I do but I am GENUINELY curious to know WHAT it is that makes BOTH of you think HAC is a good head coach...
DS44, I'm not actually sure if he WILL make a good HC. That's not what the problem is.. The problem, as I see it is that some people think they know so much about what makes a good HC and what doesn't.. then try to back it up with bull...
For instance, trying to judge a coach when the talent level isn't there... Now is there anything DUMBER than that..
Then, when the NUMBERS don't look good (and ours don't) it's can't possibly be because of the talent of the team,, it can't possibly be the injury bug,,,,According to some on here,,, IT'S all the HC,, Nothing else comes into play,,
And you know what some of them point to: The Coin Flip! Geez!
I wanna see RAC succeed.. Because if he does, that means the team is winning,,, and isn't that what we all want? I mean, seriously,, isn't it?
But here's the deal, I believe that for the first time in RAC's tenure, he actually has some talent on this team.. I don't know if it's enough to get to the playoffs (I have my doubts) but the team certainly has enough talent to be a 500 ball club.. I belive that.
If, as a more talented team, RAC can't get this ship righted,, then, I'll be right up there in front calling for his dismissal...
Even if I know that it's gonna cause some problems, I'll still be there hoping for the axe to fall..
BUT NOT NOW!
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 601 |
I AGREE with EVERYTHING in your last post... I guess where you, me and Pitt are MILES apart is that I am looking at his performance... I am basing my dislike on THAT ALONE... I would be a FOOL to judge him SOLELY on Win/Losses through his tenure but there HAS to be some degree of accountability of him in the areas that he is SORELY lacking.. Win/Loss record does NOT tell the whole story... However, we have FAR too often been BLOWNOUT and the team as whole (save for a few players) don't look prepared CONSISTANTLY... A good example would be Jeff Fisher... The talent level on his team is FAR substandard to ours but yet, he STILL manages to get his guys to play hard and COMPETE EVERY SUNDAY... Hell, they cam CLOSE to beating the defending Super Bowl Champs last week... I see yours and Coach B's point about talent level but that is no reason to give him free passes on his shortcomings as well... As irony would have it, the Titans have been bad since Eddie George retired yet they still manage to be in each game... As irony would have it, Fisher was just extended in his contract despite them having several losing seasons and our guy is on the "hot seat." Am I making any sense here? In simple terms, WHAT DO YOU see RAC DO WELL ON GAMEDAY AS A HEAD COACH?? Thanks for your patience with me.. I am just REALLY trying to see the point from your side of the fence...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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OP
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Actually, we have only been "blown out" 3 or 4 times since RAC has been here. Rarely were we more than a couple of scores out of the game.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where are the fire Romeo threads?
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