DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will Mayfield work head enough to be great?

We understand what was said... but I don't see how you can watch last year's games and the ones this year and call the two offenses the same. It's simply not the case.

Pleasssseee tell me how the Air Raid we are running now, is the same as last years...

You can trust what you read, I will trust what I am actually seeing on the field.

j/c:

Baker has the worst stats of any qb in the league. Yet, as I serf the board, I see things like the OL is to blame; the coaching staff is to blame; the WRs are running poor routes; OBJ should be traded and is holding this offense back; not having Higgins is the problem; Vers hates him.....LOL

He is not playing well. I highly doubt that it's everyone else's fault. I hope he gets it together and starts playing better

Wow. Holy crap. Letting that sink in. Throwing into double coverage at a rate that is twice that of any other QB?

It's been said many times before, by many people. Even with the success he had the 2nd half of last year, Baker far too often ignores the open guy underneath in favor of the covered guy deep. There is gun-slinger, and there is stupid. There is no shame in completing a pass for 8 yards on 2nd and 5.

He did get away with at times last year, but that should not give him Cate Blanchett to do it all the time. Take what they give you. Move the chains. Keep the ball. Salvage the season.

He should have Cate Blanchett to do it all the time. Wish I did...

For the record, I don't think anyone has said Baker isn't to blame. It's a culmination of all those things. Why you insist on making things up to stir the pot is typical but crazy and not necessary. People do read this board, you're not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

Baker played admirably last season. What changed? His O-line is weaker. He has new coaches with a new offense. He has lost players to injury. Teams have film of him... all these factors play a role whether you think they do or not.

I mean this happens to a lot of quarterbacks. Peyton Manning threw 43 interceptions his first 2 seasons in the league and he's going to the hall of fame. Yet there are people here who are saying "Baker's finished." Give me a break. Go hate somewhere else.

Baker is going to be just fine and he's going to be an elite quarterback in this league for years.

I’m not sure I’d say he’ll be an elite QB ... I didn’t even say that last year, simply because it’s way too early to say that IMO. It’s too early to say he’s a bust or he’s going to be elite.

Right now, we have to make him a manager, especially with our deficiencies on the OL. We put too much on his plate and he needs help taking some off.

That's fair.

He has all the tools to be an elite quarterback, it's just a matter if he brings it all together.

Yeah, I agree that he has most of the tools. (Obviously the height is nothing he can do about haha) ... but he’s gotta put the work in and really get to task on reading defenses and getting through progressions quicker. That seems to be his #1 flaw

I disagree, even if he puts it all together his physical limitations will make him an above average NFL Qb at best which in the right circumstances would be perfectly fine.

Nick Chubb was more responsible for our turn around last year than Mayfield. you look at every game we feature Chubb and EVERYTHING works. Nick Chubb is the cog in the wheel that makes eveyrhting turn, not Baker Mayfield.

If we want Mayfield to work out, we have to make his reads easier, and we do that by featuring Chubb and running the ball. If Chubb gets less than 25 carries a game, we failed, no matter what the score is don't matter, Chubb is threat to take it to the house every play.

Mayfield needs a running game to be successful in the NFL. Chubb averaged 5.2 yards a carry last year, and is averaging 5.2 yards per carry already this year...If we feature Chubb than teams can't drop 7 in zones and confuse Mayfield, they will have to play closer and more man coverage to contain Chubb, and this opens things up.

Mayfield is great when throwing against man coverage, he always has been, but he has been awful against zone. He was terrible last year against zone too..the Chargers and Raiders game are the 1st ones that come to mind.

If we want Mayfield to start turning it around, we gotta feed Chubb the ball, its as simple as that. Chubb is the savior of the Browns, not Mayfield. Chubb is the best pick the Browns have made since they took Earnest Byner in 1984....if Dorsey wants to keep his job, he would be smart to give him the ball and get the **** out of his way.

Your hate for Baker skews your perspective... completely, totally, utterly.

As soon as you say physical limitations, you've evaporated any credibility you might have had.

Baker is faster, taller, and stronger than Drew Brees.

Unless you honestly think Brees' physical limitations will keep him out of the hall of fame.

I stand by my original comments. If you believe Monken came in and we changed nothing and we are doing nothing different than last year that's not my fault.

j/c:

Here is link that bonefish posted in another forum. It's a pretty good read.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/10/10...-baker-mayfield

That link is 404, much like Freddie next season lol.

This article is much more unbiased.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-c...he-danger-zone/

Some big take aways. . . .

Kitchens’s scheme is heavily influenced by Bruce Arians, whom he served under on Arizona’s staff from 2013 to 2017. Both coaches love deep posts and other slower-developing routes that are aimed at attacking teams over the top.

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There’s very little binding the Browns’ offensive plan together right now. Kitchens has found plenty of exciting ways to get the ball in Beckham’s hands—with tosses, reverses, and even pass attempts—but too often the offense has looked like a series of individual plays rather than a collection of linked concepts that complement one another. There’s no flow whatsoever, and a good chunk of that falls on Kitchens

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On Cleveland’s opening play of the season, the Browns called a play-action pass with a simple slant-flat concept to the left. After taking a quick look at the slant route and deciding against it, Mayfield shifted his eyes all the way to the other side of the field and ripped a flat-footed throw to Rashard Higgins that was deflected by Titans linebacker Jayon Brown. Rather than check the ball down to running back Nick Chubb for an easy 6-yard completion .... SURELY NOT ... WE'VE BEEN TOLD BAKER IS A ONE LOOK QB THAT ONLY SEES ONE HALF OF THE FIELD.

Baker isn't playing well. Period. Kitchens is coaching like a rookie HC and is Calling bad games as an OC ... Not to mention how much pressure Baker is under (80%+ vs 49ers) ....it's all connected.

I'm a little wary reading The Ringer, but that was a pretty fair article. I feel like it didn't really dig too far into the nitty gritty, and left a little to be desired, but it was very fair. It probably helps that I agree with the article... :-p

There's no silver bullet to the issues we're facing on offense. Kitchens could magically clean up his ish and become the best playcaller the world has ever seen, and Mayfield would still be playing crappy and the receivers would still be making too many stupid mistakes. Mayfield could be all like, "psych... I was just goofing around this whole time" and end up being a young Drew Brees stepping out of a time machine, and... you get the idea.

Fixing one area will help with the others (playcalling and Mayfield's play), but no one thing is going to solve what we're seeing out there. To that end, I enjoyed the article pointing this out with specific examples from games (how there are multiple issues going on and influencing each other).

j/c:

I am not saying this in an argumentative way, but I do want to explain something for posters that are trying to learn more about the game. Posters like oober who said something the other day on the Offensive Scheme thread about having to see things more than once in order to wrap their head around it.

When folks say a qb is a one-read qb, they are NOT saying that qb always makes one read. They are saying that the qb struggles to go through his progressions [reads] quickly. The qb will have plays where he make multiple reads quickly if he recognizes the coverage quick enough, but generally, that qb will hold the ball too long if they are confused by the coverage.

Likewise, there are players like Brees and Brady who are known for how quickly they can read coverage and go through their progressions. However, they too, are sometimes confused by the coverage and hold the ball too long. It's a cumulative evaluation, not a one-play evaluation.

Also, I think there is some confusion about the "reading half the field" comment. People like myself are NOT saying that a player [like Baker] can only read half the field. That would be dumb. We are saying that qbs like Baker did better when asked to only read half the field.

ESPN did a great piece on Baker before the season and it was mentioned what Freddie did when he took over last year. The first thing was to cut the field and half so the reads would be easier. He also called for quicker plays that allowed Baker to get rid of the ball early. The idea was to hit the first read quickly. There was more, but I am just talking about those two because of the current subject matter.

Asking a young qb to read only half the field is not a rare thing, nor is it a new thing. We did the very same thing when Brady Quinn took over as our starter years ago. Guys like Lamar, Trubiski, etc have been asked to do the same thing.

The problem w/asking your qb to only read half the field is I don't think it is sustainable. As DCs get more tape on you, the more they can adjust their scheme and coverages to make it harder to only have to read half the field. It's the reason I posted Baker's distribution chart earlier this week. If we can see it, so can DCs.

I'll try and answer questions if I wasn't clear about things or if anyone wants more detail. However, I will not fight w/those who say "you hate Baker crowd."

This may be obvious, but when a coach/OC cuts the field in half, that's not meant as a permanent crutch, but more as a helper/transition step to getting a QB better acclimated to the NFL game, right?

I read your explanation, and my brain immediately took me to a snippet from one of the articles posted this morning or last night (The Ringer article), where one of the plays the broke down said that Mayfield saw his deep option (1st read) wasn't there, and then went to his second read, which was Higgins way the hell over on the other side of the field. Is this normal (to have the QB have to swing his eyes from one side of the field to the other)? Wouldn't you want the QB to have the easiest time moving from read to read? I doubt having the QB waiting on the longer route to develop, deciding it's not there, and then looking over to the opposite side (when he's already running out of time due to watching the longer route), having to find his second read and then determine to throw or not is much harder than keeping his first 2 reads w/in the same field of view.

Also, why are we having the long route being the first read? Shouldn't it be a medium route, then long and then dumpoff? If you have a QB that's struggling to progress through his reads, why chew up all your ~2.5 seconds waiting on that long route to develop and then having less time to successfully move onto the second read and properly deliver the ball? It would make more sense to first go with a less aggressive first option to save more time for Baker to process (as he is slower than he should be).

No he hasn't, he never had. He has the tools other elite QB's like Brees or Wilson have, but those elite QB's have other qualities that eclipse their shortcomings. We still have to see what BM has of special.

I have stated this last year, BM to be a good/elite QB needs very high 60's,middle 70% completions.

He needs to be in a system designed for this type of game (WCO), vertical, air raid offense is not the answer.

j/c:

6'1 or under + Big 12 Conference = Auto Fail

The fact that you think you have an idea of what is going on, then believe that Dorsey is the one that is calling the plays and how many touches Chubb is getting shows you know nothing.

I don't think its true. I think if Shanahan was designing our Offense and calling the plays, Baker would be good. The same with Todd Haley...

We just need a good and experienced offensive mind,so far I'm way more disappointed with Kitchens than with Baker.

I don't know the answer to that one. Coaches have different progressions on the route tree for different plays. I would think that "progression" isn't the case on most plays.




It depends on who is your primary target. However, it's much easier for the qb to go in one direction. For example, from short to long or long to short. It gets your eyes moving in the right direction. Most advanced passing schemes [beyond conservative high school teams] go from long to short rather than short to long.

No offense, but I think it quite clear that Freddie did a much better job w/Baker than Haley did.

This is exactly why people believe you are just here to troll.

You make some of the most insane off the wall comments when it comes to Bsker.

How did he do when Haley was his OC? Kick rocks.

That I honestly can't understand, with the amount of garbage GM's and presidents since we have returned, to have Browns fans turning against Dorsey is just unbelievable...

Haley was the first coach in more than 9 years that was able to have the team running... Now, maybe I was one of the few who could see that, but facts are facts...

I don't give a rats ass about Baker or who ever is the QB... Not anymore, I just want a competitive team.

Looking at the start of this year and on how the off season went, nobody sane can say Haley was wrong in sitting Baker...

Baker should have sit last year and take some humble pills and work in his craft... Sick and tired of QB's with signature moves.... they spend more time in the mirror than in practice.

Our coaching over that span has been FAR worse.

So you're trying to split hairs over whether a pound of feathers or a pound of lead weighs more.

No.

Saying 'FAR worse' shouldn't imply splitting hairs, whatsoever. In fact, the opposite.

I was speaking of the reality of the situation, not your opinion of it.

Sorry, I don't rely on your perceived reality of the situation. We've all learned that by now.

Did you not look at the roster all those years? Sure sounds like it.

huh? You mean by sitting and not playing chubb, one of the best rookie backs in the league last year, and one of the best backs in the league THIS year?

Pretty sure Hillis ran the ball, and J-Lew. So your wrong.

Haley sat baker? Pretty sure that was Hue's call. Your wrong again.

And yes, he was wrong in sitting baker, as baker was the best QB on our team and still is. He was wrong in not giving him any team reps as well. Just because the kid has had a few bad games, does not discredit 13 games previously where he broke the rookie TD record. You don't get to rewrite history to suit your agenda.

FYI - Bakers arm is still excellent in strength and velocity, not the noodle you claimed it was over and over last year.

You see, this is where you just flat out ignorant on the topic. You act like Baker was the one who forced himself to play last year for one. Swallow his humble pills? do you even read wth your saying?

Spend more time in the mirror than practice. Please tell me EXACTLY how many hours a day Baker is studying film and practicing, vs. looking in the mirror? I expect links, with FACTUAL information to back that up, or you can stop right now posting false information and lies. There used to be a standard on this board with posting something as a fact. I wish we started holding posters accountable to that again.

I agree with this completely. Haley called played as if baker was Big Ben.

The problem now is that Freddie is also calling plays as if baker was Big Ben.