DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker

It would be dumb to give up on him, I couldn't agree more.

But it would be dumber to keep on insisting and trading the other players just because our QB can't get it.

All in all, I trust Dorsey is going to make the right decisions, which is a big improvement over what we ever had in the recent past here.

Baker has one of the best arms in the entire league.

Why did he lose all credibility?

Baker mayfield currently leads the league in picks. He has 1 more than freaking Jamies Winston, who I’m convinced is color blind.

His QB rating is dead last in the league. He has one of the worst accuracy percentages in the league. He has one of, if not THE worst, TD-INT ratio in the league at 5TDs to 11 picks.

His yards per game is barely average. Lamar freaking Jackson throws more per game than him, and a ton of people were saying Lamar should change positions cause he can’t throw.

By that logic, baker needs to convert to a kicker.

Right now, it’s not an exaggeration. It’s not hate. It’s the absolute truth.

Baker mayfield is the worst QB in our division. Andy dalton has better stats than baker mayfield, and dalton has been without AJ green since the start of the season, while baker has OBJ and Jarvis to throw to.

Right now, I prefer rookie mayfield over whatever the hell version we have right now.

I still have concerns with Baker. We ran a pretty simple offense last year. I'm not sure how much validity there is to "working half the field" or him excelling as a "one read QB", I'll trust people like Vers if they say it's true. Still, we all know that doesn't mean he's pigeon-holed into that. Even if we thought it was true, it would be too early to tell. Besides, if that was true last year, how could you blame Baker for that if coaching put him in that situation - and it worked?

When we see young QBs put on an even-keeled trajectory to success it is just as much coaching, and scheme, as raw ability. Don't believe me - take a look at Shanny and Jimmy G in SF. We went from a set of plays that could be memorized on a playground, to this elaborate, slow developing offensive scheme that expected Baker to be Aaron Rodgers 2.0... after 12 games! We filled a 10 year highlight reel with incredible QB play in 12 games. There was no reason to think Baker couldn't rise to the next level. IMO, he will, it will just take more time than we want it to.

I don't say this to make excuses for Baker. It IS all on him. He's the leader, he's the one throwing all the balls. He's made terrible decisions and terrible passes this year. He's thrown the ball too hard, he's consistently over-thrown receivers. Back shoulder throws - not back shoulder enough, late passes over the middle - behind receivers. We've also watched drops from HOF type talent, balls ricocheting off hands as if they were gift-wrapped for the opposition. These things happen... When you're 4-2, you can laugh about them over a beer. When you're 2-4, the sky is falling.

But - if you're going hang 100% on Baker, and ignore the rest of the "layers" - you're a fool. Buckle-up guys... this pie-in-the-sky, Superbowl 24 months after 0-16 ain't happening. However, this "below average" QB, surrounded by talent can hang 40 on a dominant defense in two weeks and have us singing a different tune. It could happen, and never in the last 10+ years did you believe it could happen.

Where?

Is that a flat out lie? Show me anywhere this is being written or discussed.

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

No he does not. He requires a stable platform to throw, he can't compensate with arm talent. That's why he is so inaccurate on the move.

He even has troubles throwing screens, or can't you see that also... His range is limited, but he is effective in that range

He never had an elite arm, that why he was a walk on..

Just look at the way Darnold, Deshaun, Josh, throw the ball, even RGIII had it, Mayfield never had this.

And if you compare him with Mahomes, Aaron or Luck ...

*cleaning coffee off my keyboard*

I do disagree with what you're saying, however.

"So inaccurate on the move."

Wow.

That’s the sad truth: Baker is one of the worst QBs in the NFL right now. That doesn’t mean he won’t or can’t improve, but through 6 games he’s been garbage. Kyle Allen’s production and efficiency puts Baker’s to shame.

Whether that is due to coaching, play calling, scheming, etc ... who knows. But Baker has been a terrible disappointment, and we’re 2-4 now.

Just so you know, the reading half the field w/an emphasis on making one quick read didn't come from me. One of the networks did a big segment on Baker before the season. That information came from Freddie/Baker.

Also, remember it's not like he never had to read the entire field or didn't go through his progressions. The key word is "emphasis," because Freddie wanted to simplify things for Baker. As I have said before, that is not all that unusual.

Also, I don't know if were talking about me when you said something about putting all the blame on Baker. I don't think that way at all. There is plenty of blame to go around.

I still think the most interesting conversation we could have is what can be done to help improve Baker's overall game?

The best way to improve his overall game is to scale it back IMO. Never leave him in empty formations, never ask him to make more than 2 reads, stick with the run game and get creative THAT way, don’t take more than a handful of PA shots a game, etc.

I think that we thought he could handle more on his plate when he’s clearly not ready. My advice to the coaches: we have talent around him, so literally treat every game like it’s a rookie’s FIRST start ever and game plan it that way

I didn't say that. rasta did. And I am just going to ignore him because he is making things up. Baker is not fat and he doesn't have a weak arm.

Or scale it back just a little and keep pushing Baker to do more, to be better.

I say that because some people learn better by doing. What if this pays off somehow? What if the team misses the playoffs, but Baker comes back next year better than ever due to the experience he's gotten this year?

He has shown little glimpses of improvement. His pocket presence last game was much better. You can see when he had a tendency to drift backwards, he would start slightly, catch himself doing it, stop, and climb the pocket. Honestly he did not play that bad on Sunday other than the throw to Landry and the one poster who was at the game and said he missed a wide open OBJ for a TD.

This could just be a very humbling, learn on the fly year for Baker. At some point you don't want to always dumb down the offense. Look at Goff. He's being asked to do more and failing.

All I'm saying is big picture thinking this could pay off.

Baker's arm is straight up electric. To say that Darnold has a better arm is just making stuff up. Baker isn't in the Stafford and Josh Allen category, but he's probably the next category down.

Yeah, he has an excellent arm. There is no doubt about that.

I know it didn't come from you, I'm just stating that if it's X's and O's, I found that I can trust your opinion to be valid.

And know, you haven't done that, that's why we've talked extensively about scheme.

We've all become very reactionary. It will lead to a lot of blaming - some justified, some not. I'm trying to let each game sink in before I fly off the handle around here, because I do it too. You and I have been at each other's throats because of it. I apologize for my part. I don't want to be like that.

As far as Baker's game. One thing that is becoming very evident to me is that he is much more Brett Favre than Aaron Rodgers. That's going to lead to some heart-break. He can tweak, learn and grow, but I don't think he'll ever lose the "gun-slinger mentality". That's a double edge sword that cuts deep both ways.

Yeah, it's really hard to take what he's saying seriously when he equated Baker playing at a Kizer level.

That said, Baker has looked pretty terrible. I think a good chunk of it can be chalked up to the following...

-Teams trying (and succeeding) to confuse him
-New offense and teammates that he needs to get used to
-Wrong offense that he can't handle
-Still working through tendencies that he needs to break/fix

The book got written early this season on how to fluster Baker. This is simply something that Baker needs to work through and improve, and probably not something that's going to happen this season. It's not a light bulb that's going to magically turn on.

I never thought this offense would come out of the gate clicking. Baker and the offense just need more time together. This issue is compounded by the offensive scheme switch that happened during the offseason, and further again by the slow adaptation back to last year's scheme that I see happening from game to game. This is something that should improve (slowly) as this teams gets more games under its belt.

The offense that they trotted out game 1 wasn't doing Baker any favors. I don't think he's able, this early in his career, to be doing QB calculus just because he showed he was really good at QB addition/subtraction last year. I think that messed with his mojo, making him skittish and unsure, which is breaking down the notsogreat throwing fundamentals he did have.
He showed these trends of inaccuracy last year as well, but they came and went. This year, he's much more consistently inaccurate. Last year, folks pointed out that his throwing mechanics were all over the place. I'd hazard a guess that the discomfort stemming from him not fitting well with the offense our coaches want to run greatly exacerbated this issue.

All that said, Baker is still a young QB that was raw when he was drafted. Even if Freddie and Monken had conjured up the perfect offense for him, Baker was still going to struggle somewhat. The frustration some posters have that Baker didn't work on the things that he should have during the offseason resonate with me as well, but what's done is done, and Baker wasn't going to be a finished product anytime this season, regardless. I think Freddie and Monken and Baker need to take a hard look at what can and can't be fixed now (during the bye) as well as this season, and focus on those things while scheming to minimize the impact of stuff they won't be able to fix until the offseason.

Except Rodgers drifts backwards on almost every drop back. He doesn't break right or left usually and will look for an opening to climb the pocket but Rodgers has tons of bad habits that go without criticism because he's a Super Bowl winning QB that will also make the occasional spectacular play. He also knows where to go with the ball, which is probably the most underrated part of playing QB.

I think Baker has a lot tendencies of both him and Favre.

Great post. I agree w/almost all of it and I apologize for my role in the fighting, too.

I am going to wait a bit, but the point you made about him being a gun-slinger is a good one. I think it's a huge piece to this puzzle.

Yeah, I didn't want to disagree w/Fate about that particular point. I think that Baker has a lot of the same traits as guys like Farve, Rodgers, and Stafford. I was thinking about that last night while watching the game.

I'll talk more about it later. I absolutely have to get some damn work done today.

but thats the thing. You see what coach Rivera does?

oh, we got Allen playing? feed CMC until they force us to throw the ball.

i dont want to make this a running back thread, so forgive me Vers, but i just want to highlight this:

CMC leads the league in rushing yards 618, rushing TD's with 7, and rushing yards per game at 103.

guess who's literally right behind him? Chubb, with 607 yards, 6 TD's, and 101 yards per game.

this all despite having 13 carries LESS than CMC.

run the damn ball and take pressure off of mayfield. instead, we have a rookie HC acting like he's been the HC for 10 years, calling plays as if we have Farve, instead of a 2nd year QB who is learning a new offensive scheme.

if we give Chubb the ball once we're up 20-6 non stop, we have a much different conversation at 3-3 cause we beat seattle.

but instead? we decide to throw the ball as if we're the ones down 20-6 before half.

i absolutely refuse to believe Baker peaked in college or his 1st year in the league. there's just no way this is the real mayfield.

and i truly think one of the BIGGEST problems we have right now when it comes to baker mayfield isn't mayfield himself; its the coaching he's receiving.

His mechanics are waaayyy off. he did better against seattle, but he's still reading the field a bit slow, and he still has a tendency to throw off his back foot and such with these fade aways.

why? because i firmly believe the coaching he got as a QB in oklahoma was better than the coaching he's currently getting at the NFL level. i really do believe right now we have an inferior QB's coach and OC compared to Lincoln Riley, and its showing on the field right now.

Your post goes back to what I said before.

Freddie has forgotten his job is to win the game.

Just asking ....... Is it possible that Baker does not trust a large portion of his receiving corp to be in the right place at the right time?

Last year we had Njoku, and Duke, and Landry, and Higgins ...... with Callaway's well know issues in the 1st half, at least, of the season. We also had Fells and Perriman, who became solid parts of the passing game.

6 of those guys have been missing this season. Njoku and Higgins have been hurt, Duke was traded, Callaway was suspended, Fells was cut, and Perriman left as a free agent. So most of his most trusted receivers from last year weren't here for most of the season. We then also installed a completely new offense.

Last year it appeared that we had an offense based on quick throws. (after Freddie took over) We also ran a ton of max protections. This year it sure looks like we are going deep/short, where last year we appeared to have a lot of short 1st reads.

So basically, everything has changed .... and I think that Baker has been swamped, playing behind a so-so OL, with a bunch of players he doesn't have chemistry on the field with. The scheme does not appear to be one that allows the OL to be successful.

I think that Baker has also been pressing ... wanting to live up to all of his preseason press. He has not been nearly as accurate as he was last year.

I think that a ton of factors go into our difficulties, and there is a lot of blame to go around so far this season ..... and they are all visible in any game we want to look at.

I hope we get things figured out over the bye.

It's not just possible - "we hold these truths to be self-evident". It's amplified by indecision and a comfort level that is drastically different. We're peeling away layers of an onion that reveal more and more reasons for what we're seeing. It's still easy to look at Baker and place blame at his feet for why the onion stinks. It's inevitable and frankly, it's not all that unfair.

The synergy between a QB and his OLine cannot be understated. They work in unison to make each appear great, adequate or like "crap". Some times one or the other getting more or less credit than what is due for their part in the results.

As far as all the personnel changes. Yes - 100%, this has a huge bearing on the poor play by Baker.

Yes. Next offseason conditioning for Baker should be all about rehabbing anything that hurts and maintenance and flexibility. The bulk of his offseason should be about the mental aspect of the position and mechanics... and timing with his WRs every chance he gets.

From what I understand, his mechanics are good when he has all kinds of time and can throw in rhythm.. when he rushes at all, or when he's moving/shifting in the pocket, he sees a target and his mind is saying throw and his body, feet, legs, aren't in position yet. They are one step behind his brain. This is something that requires a tremendous amount of work to make it second nature and to make it happen in real time, under pressure.

As an analogy, it's kind of like Steph Curry's jump shot. There are probably a lot of people in the NBA who can shoot similar numbers to Steph from 3 if left unguarded or in practice.. what makes Steph so special is that his fraction of a second catch and shoot form is identical to his have all day to set up and think form... that doesn't just happen... takes hours and hours of work.

exactly ... what gives us the best chance to win the game? It certainly isn’t going hurry up with the score 20-6 and just over 2 minutes to go against the best QB in the league right now

j/c

I'm just curios here?

I'm not going to concede that Baker's issues are the play calling. But let's presume that it is for a moment. I guess I would ask what you would do that is an actual solution?

People seem to act as though you can just keep doing what we did last year. Problem is you can't. Last year Baker was reading one side of the field. When he got any pressure, he rolled right and found an outlet. Let's face it, I'm no expert on football. I know some about the game and basic concepts, but that's far from being an expert.

But what I stated above in 100% accurate. We saw Baker doing the exact same thing earlier this season. Every time he received any pressure, he was rolling right looking for that outlet. Guess what? There was nothing there open on that right side. Why? Because after having film on him last year, every team in the NFL had that go to move down pat.

They knew exactly what he would do. That if they could get any pressure on him, he would roll out right and look for that open WR. So what did they do? They stopped it. They forced Baker to do something different. Something he wasn't comfortable with. Any time you see a tendency from an NFL QB, the DC of your opponent will try to exploit that tendency. And that's exactly what we've seen.

This really isn't complicated. Freddie had to expand the offense and create new schemes. He had to force Baker out of his comfort zone because every DC in the NFL knew exactly what that comfort zone is. They knew what he did best and took that away from him.

Now it can be said and I would agree that I don't like all of the 11 man O. I think we need help blocking up front. There have been plays called at certain points of the game that I question as well. Clock management hasn't been consistent.

But the fact is Baker has to adjust to expanding what he does well. You can't keep rolling out to the right and expect NFL DC's not to stop that. You can't expect long term success of an NFL QB without them being able to quickly go through their reads and read D's when they make last second changes pre snap.

There are some positive thoughts to consider in all of this. Freddie is a first time HC. As such there will be some growing pains. Baker has never been asked to go through progressions like he will have to do in the NFL. There will be growing pains.

Trying to lay all of the blame in either direction here is wrong, fruitless and counter productive. It's a culmination of things that simply must be worked through.

I wasn't as optimistic heading into this season as many on here were. While there are exceptions to the rule, for the most part an entire new coaching staff combined with a very young QB who has to learn progressions and expand on his game are stumbling blocks to instant success.

Even I predicted 10 wins but that was me, being a fan and being overly optimistic. It was more "my highest hope" than anything grounded in reality.

All of the ingredients were there for the perfect storm. But some didn't understand it and are now looking for someone to blame.

j/c: Kinda sorta.

I wonder how many QBs would not want to play w/the offensive talent that the Browns have?

11 Personnel is run more often than any other personnel package in the league. So, it's kinda hard to blame his problems on Freddie.

Also, Chubb has the second most carries in the entire league, so it's probably unfair to say we don't use him enough.

I agree that there are multiple aspects to our problems and Baker's performance, but he is having problems that are all his own and they seem to get overlooked when we are discussing him.

First time I read your post, the above is how I grouped it. And I was thinking, have you *ever* seen Freddie?

LOL. That's just cold, bro.

Baker had a decent/good game from a PFF perspective with a 74.2 rating, 8th best in the league.

Nick Chubb: 76.9 was our highest rated offensive player.

what’s Chubb’s rating for the year in comparison to other backs?

He's 2nd in the league in Rushing Yards - only 11 yards behind Christian McCaffrey with a better average per attempt than McCaffrey.

I'd say that Chubb is getting it done just fine

Thanks.

I do think he played better against Seattle. He was more decisive, he didn't always bail to the right, he showed a ton of toughness, and displayed that great arm of his.

thanks, I knew he was up there. Don’t know what his overall PFF score is or whatever, but he should have even more yards per game IMO. (Not of his own doing either)

I apologize Vers.

For what?