DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker

For that...

I had already forgotten whatever you said. Besides, I was wrong. There are actually some very good posts on this thread.

I think we're all a little cranky because the team hasn't lived up to our expectations.

Agree with what you said, pretty much. He looks not so much fat, but chubby. But that's not a concern, it's how he performs the rest of the season.

Cranky? We're raving lunatics! lol

As far as your previous post. I think it's hard to judge intent on a message board. There's always a tug of war, people defending, people pointing fingers. If anyone is truly overlooking Baker's shortcomings, they're just a fan-boy-Baker-homer. He has looked terrible at times. WE (as an organization) were not ready for a league that has studied his strengths and weaknesses - with an entire off-season to do so. We expected him to graduate to the next level before he did his homework. The fact that he didn't, or is slow to do so, isn't all on him, because of all the changes... I think we can all agree on that. But that doesn't come across here because we're too busy picking sides. If we were all sitting at a round table with a beer in front of us, watching a game - I think many people would come-off a lot different on the subject.

Looking at the rates of 11 personnel and then blaming things on coaching does sound like a cop-out and an excuse for Baker. To me, it is just one in a list of things that changed dramatically for a second year QB. That's why we have to be patient, in the end we have no choice anyway. A want to see a correction from game to game, an end to habitual issues, such as constantly rolling right, over-throwing, throwing with too much velocity, etc... If we're fair, I think we are seeing that, just not as quickly as we would like. That said, I never blame coaching for a specific player's performance.

On the "personnel" subject... You craft your scheme around your talent. I would love to see specific team averages rather than just league averages. San Francisco doesn't fit into that mold because they play to their strengths. And let's be honest, no team needs to fit into that mold. Being the same as everyone else gets you nowhere. It's not all about "the package" on the surface. It's about all the nuances that get players to mesh within that package. It's about trust, repetition, learning from mistakes and paring things down that don't fit our players strengths. It will take time. Baker is the one that determines the largest span of that timetable. This year (so far) he has been painfully slow to learn and adjust. Truth be told though - the whole team has.

There have been a couple times this year that I thought "maybe this isn't the guy". Then he makes a plus-plus throw, leads a mistake free drive, looks like a real leader. Then that turns into "what are you thinking, he has all the tools and the drive to get it done". It would be foolish to think I wouldn't trade him for a few other QBs in the league, but when I remind myself that I'm watching a second-year QB, that list is pretty short.

But yes, no doubt. Baker chose to be a QB in the NFL, not Browns fans. He works for us now, and while we have great expectations, we will accept nothing less than constant improvement - and we shouldn't.

Maybe it's impossible to have decent conversation because you say you want people to voice their opinions and then you get upset about it, ask mods to lock it down or you insult the posters by saying that you can't have proper conversations. You have a direction in your mind how you want it to go and if anybody offers different perspective you shout them down. So, yeah...it's impossible to debate it when in truth you don't want to debate it or you want to move the conversation into a direction that you feel it should go rather than letting it play out.

Allow conversations and multiple perspectives to weigh in and discussion to organically flow. Otherwise...Why even start these threads then?

Baker will be fine his accuracy is a tad off from last season but the ball is usually where it can be caught ... Ozzie Newsome said "If you can touch it you should catch it ...

I don't think its we are not running Chubb enough. I think its WHEN we are running Chubb.

End of half, up 20-6 we are still throwing the ball.

1 and goal on the 5 yard line, we are throwing the ball.

I think it was the 49ers game (I maybe mistaken) but I read where we ran the ball a total of 8 times on a 1st down. That's crazy to me.

I agree w/you almost 100 percent on those two points.

Oh........one edit. I think the score was 20 to 12 at that time. But still, we should have ran him and used the clock so Seattle would have less time once they got the ball back. I still can't believe Freddie said he wanted to go 2 to 1 in possessions. But, that's for another thread, I guess. I kinda want to get back to what Baker can do to improve. We have all talked about what others can do, but what can Baker do?

I do think that there have been people who are saying we don't run him enough. I pointed out that he was in second in attempts and yards for RBs because I was just trying to keep things factual. But yes, I was very angry when we did not run him down by the goal line in the first half.

I replied to you, but it's gone. Anyway............good post. I think it fair and logical even if I don't agree w/all of it.

Baker's accuracy was better this week. Unfortunately his receivers had the dropsies.

The team overall still looks sloppy.

Yeah it seems like if it’s not one thing it’s another

He played better, but I don't think his accuracy was very good for the most part. The guys should have certainly caught a lot of those passes, but almost all of them were behind the receivers that were running full speed. You have guys running across the middle and you throw it behind them........well....you played football and you know what usually occurs.

I see VD had to get in his latest dose of Baker Hate, although he is veiling it better now. Bravo.

I think the problem is pretty simple. It started with the OC expecting that superior skill position talent would translate to being able to call a slow developing pass heavy offense. It failed with a crappy oline and no chemistry because of new players. Couple that will massive penalties early in the year that created obvious passing downs. That created situations where Baker tried to play hero ball and started to lose all confidence in his oline, running out of the position. All that is creating the inaccuracy and him to lose confidence.

As Freddy calls better games Baker's play is improving, he is also learning to play in collapsing pockets, a skill only the best have. Anyone that cant see Baker is a franchise QB is blind. By some people's logic they would have cut manning after his first two seasons.

Stop the chicken little stuff, Baker will be fine in the long run.

This season as you point out, there were a lot of passes that should have been caught, several that have turned into extremely costly interceptions.

But yes, his accuracy is off this year. I think that there are a couple issues contributing. 2 are mental. 1, he doesn't look like he knows this offense as well as he did last year. Is that related to changes in the offense or the coaches asking more from him or something? I don't know. He just looks unsure a lot of times. 2, he has looked skittish manifest by leaving the pocket so quickly and many times unnecessarily. Is that related to the above? Again, I don't know but this has gotten noticeably better.

The other thing I noticed, and I haven't compared film to last year but from watching and comparing to my memory, I think his mechanics are different. His elbow seems lower. When this happens it results in a higher throw. And his misses tend to be (in my informal appraisal) from the ball sailing high. A couple potential reasons for this could be that he bulked up too much and is too tight in the shoulder, did the coaching staff try to change some of his mechanics and now he is stuck in the middle somewhere, or possibly some injury that we don't know about - if he has a sore elbow he would drop it to take some of the strain off of it. Again i don't know if it is any of these but these are my thoughts

A primary cause of high passes is overstriding. I remember having to dial back my excitement at the sight of a wide-open receiver.

baker has issues but.....last week callaway drops a td pass. this week te drops his second td of the day...along with obj drops...its not like baker is the best , but it doesnt help to have 10 drops a game

I would credit that too his lack of height and trying to drive it over the line? I’m not sure, just guessing

OL is playing great, Baker is holding to the ball to much, and having decisions problems.

Our receivers have bailed Baker much more times than the drops, he is/was throwing to 2x and 3x coverage.

Yes we changed game play that now requires more time to develop. Baker is not good scrambling and buying time, he's a very efficient QB in the intermediate game, quick throws, easy completions. He's not a vertical passer, he needs high 60% 70% completions to be efficient and move the chains.

I don't dislike Baker, but he has to step up his game fast... he has 2 of the best receivers in the game, a good OL a great RB.... if he can't do it fast we should be looking some place else.

And,IMHO, there is no such thing has a franchise QB anymore, either you produce or you don't. Improvement is key in the QB position, no use on beating a dead horse, teams are starting to get it with Rosen, Mariota, Jameis even Cam...

Is this just a coincidence? Most probably it is.

Field Type
Att Comp Pct Yds Avg Lng TD Int 1st 1st% 20+ Sck Rate
Grass 133 73 54.9 829 6.2 41 3 9 41 30.8 12 12 53.1
Turf 65 39 60.0 667 10.3 89 2 2 22 33.8 10 4 92.3

Hey Vers!


putting aside my personal thoughts on Mayfield for another thread so I don't derail yours.

I think having too much muscle is detrimental to a QB. I don't know if you have read Tom Brady's book the TB12 Method, but Brady does not lift weights. He used resistance band training and works on making his muscle more flexible and pliable this is pretty much his forumla for being able to perform at such a high level for so long. If you look at Brady, he isn't jacked at all he is just a slim trim fit guy with no real extra bulk.

It could be a possibility that Mayfield's added muscle weight has effected him negatively. I think if Mayfield worked on methods similiar to Brady, dropped about 15 pounds, and worked on being more flexible and pliable it would be an overall plus to his game as a QB and he would be far less susceptible to injury. Just my thoughts.

How many times did he play on grass in HS/College? Probably not many

Also to note if folks are interested in learning more about Brady and his methods



Also Brady does "Brain Exercises", I think is something that could really help Baker Mayfield!



An offseason of this would certainly help him speed up his recognition of stuff!

Good point ... Baker has to be as proactive as possible in calling experts, veteran players, other QB coaches, etc. I have no idea what type of work he puts into his craft, but I’m sure he can do things beyond or differently that what he has been

This is true. Also, I think some of his throws that behind receivers are either due to him throwing off his back foot or opening the lead foot too far. That changes your arm angle and effects accuracy.

The mechanics are one of the things I have been wanting to talk about on this thread. He actually has outstanding mechanics at times. However, they can get sloppy under pressure and/or if he has faced some pressure earlier in the games.

I know he has scoffed at the idea of working w/a QB coach [or broom sweeper as he calls them] in the off-season, but if I was advising him, I would strongly encourage him to hire a QB coach and work w/on mechanics after this season is over.

I have some more ideas on what he can do during the off-season, but this is a start.

I think this is a good point. I would encourage Baker to lay off the upper body weight lifting. I think it's okay if he continues the lower body lifting, but resistance training is much better for the upper body when you are playing quarterback, pitcher in baseball, or an outside shooter in basketball. I would also include a lot of flexibility drills and exercises.

He’s one of Baker’s ultimate champions on social media, so it’s refreshing to see him stand by his opinions. I always enjoy his breakdowns

That video illustrates a couple of things regarding Baker and the Browns. It ties into something that Fate brought up earlier.

One thing that is true is that there have been too many drops. No doubt about that. Also, some of his pics were tipped by our receivers. No doubt about that.

However, watch the video and also think about how many times Baker makes one read and throws into tight coverage. That is the gunslinger thing that Fate brought up. When you force the ball into tight coverage, you are going to have some sensational plays and you are also going to endure drops and interceptions.

I will get into what Baker can do this off-season to work on that. Hopefully, another poster or two will think about it and talk about it before I do.

Yeah, his lack of progression (at least quickly enough) is alarming right now and it’s killing us. I’ll be the first to admit: Baker has been bad. He’s not progressed at all. Our offense is handcuffed because of it as well IMO. We can blame poor coaching (which there has been), but the QB is killing the offense too

I intend to be very careful here about the "one read" debate because as others have noted, we don't know what was the primary read pre-snap or post-snap...but...

Every one of those apparent "one read" throws in that video were good-to-great balls, delivered very quickly and all should have been caught with the possible exception of the last one where the defender made a good play...but only one ball was caught. Higgins or Landry probably catch the other two dropped balls.

So...two things. Baker has a lot of guts and confidence. He can make those throws and he knows it...maybe knows it a little too well. Gunslinger type as you and others have said...but with much better accuracy (usually) than what I think of when I hear or say Gunslinger.

One read. I've read a lot about this possible issue around the interwebs. I appreciate that you have taken the sting/stigma out of your claims of Baker having a one-read "issue" by stating that it isn't necessarily a heavy criticism as much as a thing that inexperience QBs often deal with. Assuming I am correctly absorbing your intent,

Anyway...further confusing the "one read" debate in my own mind is the above, one-read throws that were dropped and should have been caught. There was no need to go to the next read due to the placement and timing of the throws. Also, where was the second read and how much more time is needed to get to that second read? Rhetorical, of course. But that question is almost unanswerable without knowing the playcall.

My recollection is that not many inexperienced QBs get to the "next" read quickly unless a play has broken down...which in my own mind removes THAT particular play from having been given the "next" read...if that makes any sense...it happened because of the scramble drill and not necessarily some good awareness of post-snap reads.

FWIW, Baldy and Burns make terrific video and picture commentary...absolutely terrific.

Let's try this again. Some people seem confused.

Baker is building strength not muscle. Once again, there's a difference.

Baker is not lifting weights. He's using resistance bands, kettlebells, and battle ropes. These exercises are for increased strength not necessarily increased muscle. Carry on.

Baker is coached to be aggressive, so his interceptions shouldn't be anything unexpected.

Also, this is a young offense with new faces. Baker's "inaccuracies" aren't necessary on Baker as some are trying to pin on his mechanics. Sure he has the occasional errant throw. All quarterbacks do. It may appear that Baker is throwing behind his receivers which isn't necessarily the case. The receivers and Baker aren't on the same page. A good example of this is the interception off the finger tips of Hilliard. That's obviously more on Hilliard than Baker.

We will get better. I'm hoping soon but the time table is unknown.

To be fair, I have NO IDEA what Baker does to strengthen, train, study, etc ... even if I saw clips on social media, that doesn’t tell the whole story. So I don’t even know if I can have an opinion

Yes they are unexpected, if we were expecting them we should have kept Kizer...

Occasional errant throw... we are talking about Baker, right?

Baker's regression is massive, specially considering he should have improved during off season, that is the most worrying.

And yes Kitchens can help, but don't pin Baker's bad play on Kitchens, the guy is throwing to 2 of the best receivers in the league and has a monster RB by his side...

And another note, I don't see how you can get Chubby with strength training... the guy is bloated...

"A healthy perspective of history is important to keep in mind."

I agree.The Browns have sucked this entire century,so there is no reason to believe they will not continue to suck.

Keep preparing mentally, "knowing the playbook" is one thing but knowing it instinctively is another.. If you asked me to name the 50 state capitals, I could get most of them right but I would have to think about it.. he doesn't have time to think about it. And that only comes with repetition..

He needs to work on his mechanics when rushed or under pressure too and that's very hard to do in-season.. he can do some of it but this needs to be a major focus of his off-season routine..

To your last point... I don't think he's chubby... but since you do, that's precisely what I'm saying. He's not building muscle mass. That's my point. There isn't any article, pictures, videos anywhere that says he building all this muscle mass. Not sure where it even came from...


As to your first point. A more aggressive QB is likely to throw more INTs than a conservative QB (ala Kessler). This is how Freddie wants Baker to play. Interceptions are going to happen. I would have focused more on ball security and keep the turnovers down because we've lost a handful of games due to turnovers since Baker has taken over as QB.

No one is blaming anyone for his INTs. There are a lot of factors involved. Bakers himself, coaching, receivers not being on the same page... It's a team game and that's pretty clear right now.

No, it’s the wide open receiver in a wide open lane that you’re driving to drive ball to that usually results in the overthrow. Strange, I know. And I haven’t seen any indication of Baker trying to throw “over” anyone either. Blocked throws are usually a result of a lucky lineman getting his hand in the right place at the right time. Sam Bradford is 6’4” and drove me nuts with all his blocked throws.

j/c

What I was hoping to see from Baker in the Seattle game was improvement. And I did see some of that. His accuracy is still a bit off from what we saw last season, but improvement comes over time.

As I said in an earlier post, people act like Baker can just be a one read QB and concentrate on the right side of the field like he was doing last year. That's simply not true. All 31 of the other DC's in the league had that film going into this season and knows that he throws and scrambles to the right. They took that away from him.

There was no choice but to expand the playbook and work on him going through his progressions and throwing left some when pressured. No choice. When other teams get some film on you, they will certainly take away what is obviously comfortable for your QB and force him to do things he doesn't seem comfortable doing.

From what I saw, he went right back to his old tendency of rolling right every time he even "perceived" any pressure. Only this year, the opposing D's had those WR's and outlets on the right side of the field covered. Why? Because they knew that was his go to.

So what I was seeing was Baker was still rolling right far too much. After his initial drop he was skittishly continuing to drift back in the pocket right into the lanes where the OL would be steering defenders behind him. A lot of the issues were straight laying on his own shoulders. Many refused to admit that. They tried blaming everyone from the OL to the HC for it.

But in the Seattle game those things didn't happen. He wasn't rolling right in panic. He didn't seem so confused that he abandoned the pocket early. He wasn't drifting back in the pocket. Instead, he was stepping up in the pocket. He seemed more trusting of the players around him to do their jobs.

These are the first signs that he's starting to become more comfortable with the expanded play book. Something that HAD to be done for the reasons I posted above. Slowly this expanded play book is becoming more natural to him. That's an obvious thing to see from my perspective.

Don't get me wrong, his accuracy is still not to the same level we saw last year in the second half of the season. His comfort level isn't all the way there yet. But these are steps in the right direction. They are indicators that he is progressing in the right direction.

That's all I was looking for to begin with. Positive signs that "he gets it". And I'm beginning to see those signs. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess. But I call it the way I see it. I won't hesitate to call out the excuse makers when he's playing like crap. And I'll be happy to say I see improvements when they are there.

In this case I see some positive signs. As a Browns fan I'm happy to see it and hope that improvement builds from here.