Reading this thread one would think we'd be 6-0 if it weren't for Baker Mayfield.
I think Baker has to carry some blame into how the offense is performing this year, but its not ALL him. Everyone needs to step it up, and once that happens, things will change. Everyone does include the head coach too. Play calling, time and game management has to improve.
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Also, thanks Vers for sharing that Next Gen link.
First thing that I was surprised, is the 'aggressiveness' stat. With all the turnovers, I thought his percentage would have been higher. Then I look at his completion % compared to everyone else, and then get a little disappointed.
Vers, give me a break, you are doing what you are accusing others of. You going around this board dropping 3 Baker hate threads a week and while you rarely, harshly critique anyone else. You're the one that needs to get some balance. You're no different than colin C., you're desperate to prove your predraft evaluation of Baker correct. Give it a rest.
Yeah, there were some interesting numbers provided. I thought the TT [time to throw] was interesting because it showed Baker was tied for third most in time to throw. The two guys who held it longer were Cousins and Rodgers. Rodgers does a lot of add-libbing, but Cousins really surprised me. I keep hearing how terrible Minni's OL is, but maybe it has more to do w/Cousins holding it too long?
The other stat that was telling was the plus/minus on the expected completion percentage to the actual plus/minus on completion percentage. That wasn't so good.
Like you, I was surprised by the Aggressiveness stat. I thought it would have been higher.
Reading this thread one would think we'd be 6-0 if it weren't for Baker Mayfield.
We would be close.
Point is Baker Mayfield has 25 ints and 29 total turnovers in 20 NFL games, He is very close to Ryan Leaf level of awfulness (Leaf had 36 turnovers in 21 games) only difference is the Chargers were smart enough to pull the plug. I don't think the Browns will.
Baker Mayfield to me looks like a bust. To me he is a guy like Scott Mitchell, Rick Mirer, DA, etc...had a few good games but thats it...flash in the pan.
Mayfield is 90% responsible for our losses with his god awful performance. As my life long Steeler friend told me the other day, and I quote:
"Mayfield is stinkign up the joint, he needs to throw catchable balls" Just like Shannon Sharpe says, Beckham is one of the best route runners in the league and he has been open but Mayfield is throwing him horrible passes, throwing behind him, etc.
Mayfield is the dead last ranked QB this year, the only guys who go from doing what Mayfield did last year to looking like this are busts...Courtney Brown had a good season and then done nothing, barring a complete miraclious turn around, I think the Browns will be looking for another QB by years end.
Word is Haslam wanted to keep Gregg Williams, but Dorsey insisted on hiring his own coach and changing the organization structure. Haslam relented, and now the coach reports to Dorsey
Dorsey "flexed his muscles" all right...if this team goes 4-12 or 5-11 Dorsey and company will be out here along with Kitchens.
Its very clear to everyone outside of Cleveland...The Browns should have kept Williams and last year staff. Todd Haley said Baker Mayfield wasn't ready and had ALOT to learn...Todd Haley ahs forgotten more about Qb then any of us will ever know...He guided Big Ben and Kurt Warner, Warner RAVED about how good of an O mind Haley is.
We threw Baker in before he was ready, and the kid is very immature. Hence why he blames the refs in his postgame press conference..it wasn't the refs throwing behind people, throwing into triple coverage, etc...Mayfield is looking like another entitled man child jerk just like Ryan Leaf was and guys like him simply don't get it...nothing is ever Mayfield fault, its always someone else fault...this is the main reaosn why i believe he is a bust.
It has been a point of discussion how difficult our early season schedule is... well, here are the rankings of the pass defenses we've played, their QB rating allowed on the season, and Bakers rating against them..
A few things.. it's clear that Baker is underperforming compared to his peers since in all but one game, his rating was lower than their season average. Poor completion %, too many INTs, too few TDs.. obvious recipe for a crappy rating (and for losing games)
Also of note, the Rams are barely below the midpoint.. every other team we've played is a top half pass defense..
More bad news? rated #1, #3, and #6 are the Patriots, Bills, and Broncos respectively... our next three games. Assuming the ratings don't change, we will have played 8 of the top 12 pass defenses in the NFL in our first 9 games.... based on QB rating allowed...
That's freaking brutal for a young team trying to find itself and its identity...
I think 7 of 11 of bakers ints were tipped or given up by the Wrs. How many dropped balls? What do you say we give Baker some slack instead of trying to run him out of town.
I think KoB post is so ridiculous there is zero point responding. I've said before I think he simply hates Baker. I think comparing the Rookie QB who set an NFL record for TD passes in his rookie year to one of the biggest draft busts in history is nothing short of mindless spite and hate. . . . . and the OP has taken swipes at me for saying that, but I don't know what else you can say to such willful ignorance.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I think Baker Mayfield was more effective last season spreading the ball around. He also made quicker decisions last year because he was not focused on who to throw to.
I think some of his issues this year is he is holding the ball waiting for OBJ to get open.
Baker is a risk taker and forcing the ball down field is what he wants to do. Much like Brett Farve who he is most often compared to. He will throw picks because of his aggressive style.
I never want him to lose his aggressive style of play but in the same token I would like for him to take what the defensive is given him more than he has so far this year. I think that is the reason he spread the ball around better last year. He took what the defense gave him more last season and mixed in his aggressive shots. This year he seems to me to be taken more shots and less spreading the ball and taking what the defense is giving him.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." Margarat Thatcher
Baker might be better off with a good OL and lesser playmakers to be honest ... he likes to spread the ball around and needs to feel comfortable in the pocket. Having OBJ might actually be a detractor to his progress and effectiveness
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I just really... wow. I try to read your posts for the shear entertainment value, I usually make it about half way through. Two things become obvious...
1. You hate Baker with every drop of blood running through your veins.
2. You really haven't watched much football -or- you just don't understand the game.
Each post becomes more and more outrageous. I'll cherry-pick the OBJ comments from this one... OBJ makes highlight videos catching balls with one hand, last week he dropped THREE balls that hit him in both hands. I also watched him NOT run through two routes just last week, one for an incompletion, one for an interception. Meanwhile, we wonder why Baker keeps throwing behind him, well, some of us. But let's not talk about what is actually taking place from game to game.
We can now understand that it's Baker's fault, since you pointed out what wasn't obvious to Browns fans before the trade - passes to OBJ are expected to be perfect to every possible degree of the limits of physics OR anything that indicates he is not an absolute god on the football field is the QB's fault.
Thanks for the update. I'll look forward to your next episode when we learn that Baker is statistically worst than Todd Marinovich's dead cat... Who incidentally died after being kicked by a drunk Baker Mayfield, after he robbed Todd's grandmother for drug money. Should be fun.
So much for the football talk. These threads always get derailed. A few comments:
--Baker is not a bust. He is not going anywhere. He's our qb and he needs to improve.
--Saying other posters "hate" Baker does not make him a better qb. Some folks ignore all the stats, play on the field, and then go off on other posters.
--OBJ is NOT the problem. Hell, we should be getting him the ball more. Baker's issues are mostly from his reads/progressions. Not OBJ.
We are six games into a season with a new coaching staff.
We have had players take turns at making mistakes. We lead the league in penalties.
We have played a tough schedule with major injuries.
Yet K is able to predict the future career of a number one pick. Who in his rookie year set the record for TD's. Threw 20 TD's in the red zone last year with 0 int's.
Nothing else is wrong it is all on Mayfield.
Thankfully nothing he writes carries any credibility and is only worth reading to prove his lack of knowledge.
--Correct, but why get mad if everyone doesn't pigeon-hole their post into such a narrow scope. We can only say the same thing in so many different ways, so many times.
--It's a message board. People respond to each other - it's organic. When someone goes off the deep-end, others will respond in kind.
--Problems are not mutually exclusive. OBJ was part of the problem last week. Any receiver with three drops in a game is part of the problem, especially if he pulls up on one that results in an INT. OBJ had 11 targets, 6 catches, 3 drops, the other two he didn't run through the route. Watch them again and tell me I'm wrong.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
That is not what I am saying, Fate. I'm saying that posters like 888 are always saying "you hate Baker," as if that is a viable argument to defend Baker's performance. Meanwhile, they don't say a word when posters criticize other players/coaches on the team. They also ignore all the stats, charts, etc completely and then go off w/the "hate" argument. It kills discussion.
I never said that OBJ wasn't part of the problem last week. I think I even mentioned him and the other receivers dropping passes in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly thread where I recapped the game. But, this is a Baker thread. Not sure why we can't talk about what he is doing? The OL, scheme, receivers running wrong routes and dropping passes have been mentioned over and over on this thread. And it's by many of the same folks that use the "hate" argument.
Like I said earlier........"Whatever." I thought this thread made a positive turn earlier, but as soon as KOB made that last absurd post, I knew it would open the flood gates for all this "hate" talk. Yet, not one poster called out the crap from BakerBrown and sourpuss. Let's concentrate on that and ignore what Baker can do to improve his game. Y'all go at it.
That is not what I am saying, Fate. I'm saying that posters like 888 are always saying "you hate Baker," as if that is a viable argument to defend Baker's performance.
Well that's a big fat lie - and I guess I am not surprised. You've been trying to needle me for a while on this ... I'll extend you the courtesy of pointing out all your hypocrisies & garbage non football takes moving forward, instead of remaining silent as I have for some time.
I am very confident any independent thinker/reader can either follow along unless they are trying to twist things - but I'll spell it out for you specifically after your comment here.
The only person I have accused of Hating Baker is KoB - and for very obvious reasons, he has no balance with his opinion of Baker, he straight trashes him. Just like in his last post putting Baker into a comparison with Ryan Leaf. One of, if not the biggest, draft busts all time. He didn't say Baker was as bad as RL, but the post wasn't far away from trying to insinuate that before KoB announced Baker is a bust . I'll call that out, like Fate did and Bonefish, and say that's straight trash.
What I have said on Baker is crystal clear, and I have not tried to defend Baker's performance in any way.
Originally Posted By: mgh888
I am concerned about Baker's accuracy, his happy feet and throwing with poor mechanics compared to last year.
The interceptions? A by product of the accuracy issues to be sure. But I don't look at the interceptions as the issue - the issue is accuracy. . . . I don't look at his number of interceptions and say the problem is worse of better than it is. If Baker had 5 interceptions this year instead of 11 - we are in the same place. Arguing over whose fault they are misses the point.
1. If the balls that hit hands were not intercepted ... there would STILL be a problem.
2. Baker is aggressive and has been throwing balls aggressively in catch up mode in a couple games. 3 in the very first game of the season. Other QB's worried about their stats might have not thrown those balls ... I'll take that willingness Baker has to have crappy stats while trying to win as a positive .... (I'll take the HC trying to score twice in a minute and a half at the end of a half where we are winning as a negative that will probably impact Baker's int's)
As for your continual need to try to get posters to talk about what Baker needs to do to get better ... I haven't commented on that because I think that is a bit asinine. I think that smacks of someone, an ex-football player / coach, wanting to show how smart they are - or try to pretend they are smarter than they actually are since none of us have a clue what Baker's regime is or what/how he is being coaching. I'm not going to be in that discussion, I can't answer that question and won't try. If I see Baker throwing without setting his feet properly, I don;t know the process to coach him to correct that and I am not going to pretend otherwise.... I can speculate on what I see is wrong, and as is well documented, attribute the issues to Baker with multiple contributing areas including, coaching, play calling, scheme, some drops from WR's and a Freddie having a massive change in his responsibilities.
I don't try to police the board and judge if a poster talked about one player but not another - the only person I see do that is you when you start posting antagonistic statements like the one above ...
Last edited by mgh888; 10/19/1902:10 PM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Well...Baker isn't throwing the ball to himself...or running routes...or blocking...or calling plays. Can't discuss the QB without discussing those guys as well.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Oh, please. This is Dawgtalkers (not that any other message board is much different), we can talk about Sashi, Baker, religion and trade pumpkin bread recipes, all in one thread. If you think talking about the WRs or OLine is pushing the envelope, you're clearly in the wrong place.
As far as Baker and improvement, I'm not ready to talk about the off-season. I expect to see that on a week to week basis... If I don't, there's nary enough "help" for him once the games stop.
We're not talking about someone mechanically unsound, we're not trying to fix a Tebow-like windup or correct someone who constantly "slings it" without proper footwork. Most of what ills him, physically anyway, is looking better every week. Over-stride? Throwing high? Evading the pocket? Those things will probably never go away completely -- he's not a robot and "prototypical QB" is not in his DNA. The Happy Feet? You'll watch those for his entire career (or two years for you KoB), the happy feet are his rhythm mechanism.
The bottom line with Baker, and his game, is he has to transcend into a professional QB. He needs to take "the craft" very seriously. He needs to adopt an off-season "regiment". That should include physical exercises that improve strength and flexibility and mental exercises that challenge his recognition and processing speed.
From what I've read, these change from year to year for even the best QBs. Probably so they don't get stale and yet keep chasing down what they consider week points. This requires the maturity to rocognize the things you can change and the wisdom to find workarounds for things you can't. All of these things come with time. As long as he's not so brash as to think he doesn't need to follow the formula, everything will be fine.
I hate making the same lame excuses for him that we've heard a million times. Busy off-season, getting married, no break since the beginning of his final college season... but they're true. The litmus test will be this eye-opening experience this year. Nothing is promised, I don't care what you did last year, what your supporting cast looks like on paper, what the talking heads are saying while salivating over your prospects. This takes WORK, and the work never stops. Hopefully Bake has learned (is learning) a valuable lesson this year.
I'm willing to wait until next year before I'm ready to make any judgement on Baker/Kitchens.....a season, and a full offseason.....and if things aren't coming together next year, then I tend to think any talk of bust/hot-seat/etc. will be warranted...
A voice of reason, Tyler. He is sharing weak performance. Not victimized. Wishing on a star and working hard to make your own luck are quite different. This is a learning curve, another one, the next one, and he is struggling to show improvement, especially enough to generate wins and silence some critics. We can rationalize, explain it away, fix blame, and it remains: adapt, overcome, and succeed. We are anxious and we are eager. Keep it all on him for his own work to occur. Because realistically it is there. Might get him some Vince Lombardi to consume/read/listen to.
He will be a bigger than life when he succeeds.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I'm willing to wait until next year before I'm ready to make any judgement on Baker/Kitchens.....a season, and a full offseason.....and if things aren't coming together next year, then I tend to think any talk of bust/hot-seat/etc. will be warranted...
but not until then..
this is probably the wise thing, though I would like to sense that Baker is getting better by the end of this season too .. not worse
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I dont get all the hand wringing over placing the blame ... i said it in the game day forum ... if we were a grocery store there’s be clean ups in every damm isle ...
Freddie has his issues ... there no one else’s fault ... empty backfields inside the 5 on multiple occasions ... not giving Nick the ball at the right times ... trying to OUTSMART everyone .. i think he hired Hue’s clock mgr. ... he STINKS at that ..
Bake has his issues ... there no one else’s fault ... take away the tip ball picks and u still have a HOT BUTT MESS ... sometimes i think dudes picking his dinner out of the lobster tank he stands there for so long ...and has he made EVEN ONE PLAY when leaving the pocket .. last year i cam to expect a good play when he moved out of the pocket ..
The OL has issues ... no Vers its not playing as bad as some make it out to be but it still has its moments and is not playing good ...
WR’s/Hilliard ... way to many drops and balls going off the hands and turning into picks or blocked punts ...
The D can’t stop the run or tackle and to top it off we gotta be at or near the bottom of the league in TO’s caused ... i don’t think we even have 5 ... I think we’ve given it away in a few individual games than we’ve created all year ... i’d *L* but thats just too damm sad ...
When your QB is holding the ball the third longest in the NFL, should we really be talking about the OL though? Asking for a friend....
Well, when the QB is throwing into double coverage at twice the rate of any other QB in the league ... it's the scheme.
See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know the scheme forces QB's to throw into double coverage because they can't recognize what the D is doing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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