DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum John Dorsey Cont...

IMO Vernons presence has helped Myles in a big way. I can think of one example from the past. LT made Banks, Peppers, Marshall and other Giant defenders that much better. Ray Lewis did also. There are plenty more examples that I could think of if I really tried.

I think Ogbah is a superior player in 2019 to Vernon.

Ogbah has 17 tackles on the year and 3.5 sacks. Vernon has 11 tackles and 1 sack.

The team would be much better with both Ogbah and Zietler vs Vernon.

Frankly, I wish we didn't suck against the run. The only teams giving up more rushing yards per game than us are the Dolphins and Bengals. We allow 5 yards/rush .. which is 5th worst in the NFL.

We are 8th in pass defense, so that's something, but we are getting run all over.

The strangest part about that to me is that our secondary has both starting CB's out and our DL has been pretty healthy.

I wonder if we are increasing the depth of our LBers and SS in an attempt to help our corners rather than inching them toward the line to help w/the run?

I don't know if that is true, but it's a thought.

I also don't think either of our DTs are all that great against the run. Ogunjobi is a penetrating rusher, but is not very stout against the run. And Richardson hasn't been very visible.

Interesting thought
I know on one of the big runs recently (i saw recently because not sure if Seattle or the game before) but Mack Wilson one ran the play leaving the cutback lane wide open

I actually don't know the answer to that but it's certainly something I'll be watching for.

A lot of what I read says Mack Wilson isn't playing very good.

We fail in the running game by permitting chunk-plays. Rewatching this week I saw that LBs were most guilty of being out of position and missing tackles. I think both players and coaches under-estimated the talent of Chris Carson. I think we do that a lot. We seem better at rising to the challenge of the league's best backs and falling flat to the unknown and under-appreciated... Since like 1975.

same here ... he seems to be a liability on defense, and Kirko’s absence is probably felt more than we realize

The fact we either lead the league or are right up there in missed tackles may have sumptin to do with the rushing stats being at the bottom of the barrel ... but i could be wrong ...

Is TakiTaki still hurt or just not playing?

Special teams only.

I wonder if those who felt Dorsey deserves a statue back in April still feel the same way...?

I'm starting to really wonder.

Dorsey has a plan.

You can bet on it.

I don't think he does and that's the problem.

I do.

I think it has to do with the fact that we were not tackling the previous years,the fundamentals with GW were all wrong and our D was hitting not tackling.

I never thought he deserved a statue.

It is very clear Dorsey is not the problem.

The problem is the egomaniac on the sideline who can't get out of his own way.

Another poster and I talked about this in a different thread.

In 2018, Dorsey's draft

1. Baker
2. Ward
3. Corbett
4. Chubb
5. Chad Thomas
6. Antonio Callaway
7. Avery
8. Damion Ratley
9. Simeon Thomas

Corbett, Avery, and Thomas are not longer on the team. Denzel has shown his skills, but barely as he hasn't been on the field. The book is still out on him. Chubb has been the steal of the draft, but fumbles are now becoming an issue (although I don't think they will be and I am not concerned). Baker after setting the rookie TD record, has struggled about as much as DeShone Kizer, and has looked pretty bad this year. He did look better last week, so lets hope that trend continues.

2019 Draft

1. Greedy
2. Takitaki
3. Redwine
4. Wilson
5. Siebert
6. Forbes
7. Lewis Jr.

Greedy has been hurt and hasn't played. We know nothing really about him. Takitaki cant get on the field other than ST, Redwine has not been special but seems like a depth player, Wilson has shown some promise, Forbes and Lewis I don't even recall seeing as of yet. Seibert seems to be the best pick of the draft so far, our Kicker.

Trades over the last two years -

2018:

-Danny Shelton and 5th round pick for 3rd round pick (which was sent to Giants in OBJ trade)
-Third Round Pick for Tyrod Taylor
- DeShone Kizer and 18 4th round pick and 5th pick to Packers for D. Randall, 2018 4th round pick (which was traded) and 18 5th rd pick (Avery)
- Jason McCourty and 7th rd pick for 6th round pick (that was traded)
- traded 18 2th rd pick to colts for 18 3rd for 3rd rd pick (Chad Thomas) and 18 6th rd pick (which was traded)
- Traded 18 4th rd pick and 18 6th rd pick in order to draft Callaway
- Traded Jamar Taylor for 2020 6th rd pick
- Traded Shon Coleman to 49ers for 19 7th rd pick (which was traded)
- Corey Coleman to bills for 20 7th rd pick
- traded 19 7th rd pick to saints for Devaroe Lawrence

2019:

-Traded Zeitler to Giants for Vernon which was then included with Jabrill Peppers, 2019 1st rd pick and 19 3rd for OBJ
-Traded Emmanuel Ogbah to Chiefs for Eric Murray
-Traded 19 2nd rd pick and 19 5th to colts to draft Greedy.

It is way too early to honestly grade the drafts. I think you really need 3 years to see how a player is going to end up, as we are seeing with Baker as an example. Right now, he could be our Franchise QB, but he could go the other way and we are drafting again in 2 years as he's our Mariotta.

The trades are hard to grade, as some of them were for draft picks (greedy for example) and we cant really grade him. But we have relied a lot on trades to bring in guys, as well as FA signings to build this team, and that I don't like. Trades and FA's do not have the same sense of loyalty and devotion to play for the team as guys who are drafted by them. That's part of the reason why they say to build through the draft. We are seeing that right NOW as we have a collection of TALENT, but no one that wants to play as a TEAM.

I think the trades thus far as a whole, have been horrible. OBJ hasn't played well - I don't want excuses about scheme or baker or Freddie. He hasn't. He has dropped easy catches and is disinterested in being here.

Ogbah for Murray was a disgrace to this point if you ask me.

Vernon was a horrible trade so far, but he played decent last week. Lets hope he kicks it up.

Trading Jason McCourty for a 7th and 6th was a disgrace. He is having a heck of a year as he did last year with the pats. and at the time was our best corner.

a 2nd rd pick to colts so we could get chad Thomas and a 6th (which was traded) was a joke.

The only trade that I think he really hit on was Jarvis and Kizer. Getting Randall was a good move (even though it looks like he will be walking after this year), and the other part of that trade was a pick we used on avery and he left. So in the end, we got a rental at safety and future 4th. Which for Kizer is still a plus if you ask me.

Free agents - (to try to keep this short ill put quick remark)

2018:

- TJ Carrie (decent)
-Orson Charles (eh)
-Darren Fells (not on team)
-EJ Gaines (decent)
-Chris Hubbard (backup talent at best that is starting)
-Carlos Hyde (not on team)
-Terrance Mitchell (played pretty well)
-Greg Robinson (decent 18, but garbage this year)
-Chris Smith (eh, hasn't contributed much)
-Drew Stanton (mentor for baker, that's about it)
-Earl Watford (who?)

2019:

-Garrett Gilbert (backup, hopefully)
-Demetrius Harris (lot to be desired)
-Kareen Hunt (hasn't played, supreme talent - will he fit in with chubb and this offense)
-D'Ernest Johnson (eh)
-Eric Kush (backup talent, has played admirably tho)
-Kendall Lamm (been hurt, but backup talent)
-Sheldon Richardson (talented player, under performed)
-Adarius Taylor (not much to write home about)


I gotta say guys, King John - after you look at the whole picture, has left a lot to be desired so far. HOWEVER, it has only been two offseason. I think we say the bright lights of Odell, with what we THOUGHT was a franchise QB last year and a pro bowl RB, and we got giddy. Not realizing the game is won in the trenches. The Defensive line should be manhandling every single team, and its not. The offense line (I don't care what grade PFF gives it) is not talented. Other than Tretter and Joel, we have hot garbage or backups at best. At Chubbs ability to run through the first tackler is making their run blocking better then it is if you ask me. And anytime we need them to block for more than 2 seconds, they cant. I literally watched them give up a sack on a 3 man rush. GMAB.

Dorsey also has hired Freddie. We knew there was going to be growing pains with a rookie HC, but dang man - learn from them! That's the most concerning thing with him, hes too dang stubborn to learn from his mistakes, and keeps is arguing for THEM. Now he is throwing players under the bus (Higs), not a good look "Coach".

He is still head above water what this disfunction franchise has had since 99, but I got to say, that's not really saying much now is it?

I am starting to see that maybe there was a reason Dorsey was canned in KC and I am sorry to say it. I hope these transactions start to pan out, but a lot of that panning out resides in his HC hire, and IDK if that guy can swallow his pride and do it.

If Dorsey continues to make trades like its fantasy football, I will start getting concerned. While everyone else is panicking, he needs to maintain control.

However, I have no doubt Trent Williams will be a Brown in a few hours and we will no longer have Higgins.

Dorsey is infected with the Browns culture. Nobody who comes here to work escapes it.

Cut Carl Nassib...who wore a Captains jersey for Tampa Bay last Sunday.

Traded Avery for a 2021 4th Rd pick.

I've said my piece on the 2018 draft and he got loads of help from the last regime. I generally agree with you on the trades and think although the subsequent contract for Landry was egregious, giving up a 4th was a good move. Same with Randall...I liked that trade as well. The reason I quoted this portion of your post, and brought up Landry's contract, is because FA spending is something I think needs to be brought up as well. Prior to coming to Cleveland, this was a knock on Dorsey...whimisically (my word) spending on players. Let's look at some of these contracts:

T.J. Carrie: 4 yrs, $31M w/ $15.5M guaranteed. His guaranteed $$ is #21 among all CBs. Sorry, but that way too much for a guy playing backup.
Chris Hubbard: 5 yrs, $36M w/ $15.1M guaranteed. His guaranteed $$ is #10 among RT. This guy sucks.
Jarvis Landry: 5 yrs, $75M w/ $34M guaranteed. His guaranteed $$ is #7 among all WR. That's asinine.
Assuming Odell Beckham: 5 yrs, $90 w/ 65M guaranteed. His guaranteed $$ is #1 among all WRs. It's alot, but this is the first example, to me, where it makes sense.

* Side Note* We have two WRs counting for roughly $30M in cap space next year...Landry being slightly more than Beckham . Personally, I think this is just too much to allocate to 2 WRs. I hope something happens in the way of contract restructuring.

Assumed the contract of Olivier Vernon: His contract is ridiculously stupid at 5yrs $85M w/ $52M guaranteed and it's a good thing we don't have all of it but he is a $15.5 cap hit in 2021 IF we keep him.

I don't mind the Greg Robinson contract. Dorsey and Co. were put in a bad spot with the retirement of Joe Thomas right before free agency and needed to scramble to find a solution. I don't even hate the subsequent one year deal that followed. They didn't have a long-term answer yet so keep Robinson until you find one.

I also don't mind the Sheldon Richardson deal and I think it's been one of Dorsey's best so far since he arrived.

Like with most contracts, there are outs where you can cut a guy and take a smaller hit on these guys, but these contracts overall are just wild to me, even upon their intiial signings: Landry, Hubbard, and Carrie especially. As we incrementally take on dead cap for contracts, I wonder how it might hinder future spending. I don't think it's looming anything major in 2020 but we've been playing the in the free agency sandbox quite a bit and I don't think it's been all that successful.

Not Dorsey dropping passes and getting flagged. FK needs to produce or step aside for someone else to solve the flag flood and attitude issues. Improve the game plan and coach some of the junk out of this team. None of the pressers have scored points or won us games.

For me Dorsey has been barely average. He's def. not the King everyone talks about. His drafts have been weak, his trades haven't panned out and he has the debacle that is FK on his scoresheet. He also doesn't get value in the trades...thats whats bad..its almost like he rather get anything no matter how vast the value discrepancy is.. Like trade McCourty..for basically a 6th, and dude was one of the best CBs in the NFL last year.. Then he goes out and has to sign/draft someone to fix a hole he just created...like shelton, Zeitler, Fells. Given his resume he deserves a few years to get it right, but he hasn't been nearly as good as some make him out to be.. and if he squanders all of our draft capital and puts us in cap hell, back to square one again..we have to hit on more draft picks in the middle and later rounds .

One could say its not Freddie dropping passes or getting flagged either, but rather dorseys players that he brought in that have 0 attention to detail.

See how this chicken and egg game work?

You have to bring in smart players (we have not) and you have to coach them up as well (we have not).

This is the exact same trend we have seen over and over again through the years.

Forgot about Nassib too ... he’s been more than sufficient from what I’ve watched

To be reasonable, Dorsey did get a 3rd for Duke and a 5th for Austin Corbett.

Although, drafting Corbett in the first place and then thinking he could step in and start in Zeitler's place is a knock on him in it's own regard.

Honestly if the trend continues and Browns fans start putting the blame on Dorsey for trading for OBJ and drafting how we drafted, then the best is just to close up shop and move the franchise.

If fans of the most miserable expansion franchise can't value Dorsey, and what he has done, then just close the shop and put up a for sale sign.

I think fortunately most of the Fans value and trust Dorsey... I don't think we actually have an alternative...

I don't think people are putting all the blame on Dorsey for the mess we're in, but he's certainly had his hand in it. The Midas touch that he had last year isn't looking quite as good now.

Where do you put the blame for the team's woes?

Baker Mayfield? Dorsey is the one who drafted him when he had his choice of 4 other QBs.

The Offensive Line? Dorsey traded away one a Pro-Bowl RG, while picking so-so talent to plug other holes along the line.

Freddy Kitchens? Dorsey is the one who signed off on that hire, while also allowing him to blow up the coaching staff from last year and giving him both the OC and HC hats after only serving 8 games in either capacity.

I certainly have way more faith in Dorsey than just about any other person on the team though. I'm just hoping he can identify what the real issues are and fix them quickly. Even if it means swallowing pride and reversing previous decisions.

I have an unpopular opinion....

I'm waiting for all this greatness that Dorsey is said to have done for this franchise to show up and translate to wins.

His best pick without a doubt was Nick Chubb.

And like I said, he doesn't seem to have a plan. He's acquired skill positions with no rhyme or reason other than to acquire them.

He's trading good players for different good players without replacing the good players he's traded away.

He had all offseason to upgrade the tackles on the offensive line and did nothing, and now we are in desperation mode to acquire someone and we were possibly trading future assets for a 2 year rental... yikes.

He said the reason why we drafted Ward over Chubb was because better corners would allow the line to get to the quarterback, then he proceeded to dismantle the entire defensive line.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see a plan here at all. I hope one emerges, but it seems like we are just a collection of talent who have no idea what to do.

OL is playing good, specially considering we have Baker has a QB.

I think Dorsey major mistake was letting Baker choose the HC... ;-)


Kidding, the guy is good, he will get this stuff right.

FYI, Zane Gonzalez was just picked NFC ST player of the month. Too bad Dorsey basically said he stunk.

If a team is a collection of talent with no idea what to do, then that is on coaching - not the GM.

#notenoughtalent

That might be the worst case of revisionist BS I've seen on here. Zane was missing chip shots, which directly cost us 2 (?) games. It came out later that he was hurt.
We needed a kicker that could at least make chip shots. He wasn't the guy at that point.

No. No it's not.

You don't think the team knew he was hurt? lol.

if the team didn't know he was hurt - that's on the team (Dorsey) for failing by putting a hurt player on the field, and inexcusable as well.

Not really a good comeback there bud.

I'm not following your logic bro. If the team DIDN'T know he was hurt, how could it fall on the team for playing him?