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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: 1oldMutt
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: cfrs15
I’m sure everyone is as confident as I am about integrating Kareem Hunt into the offense optimally.


Hunt isn't going to solve our problems. He might even add to them as it would take away carries for Chubb. NC has been our best player game in, game out...


he will likely take them from Hilliard


You mean "Hillyard"...


No? unless you are using GPS to pronounce his name.


The idiot announcer yesterday was pronouncing his name that way. It got a big run and chuckle in the game day thread !

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I said at the time, but that triple fake swing pass to Jarvis was idiotic


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...




It's Baker's fault.


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Well to be honest, he called a play last game where OBJ was open and could have won us the Game.

He also started the season with an Air Raid concept but the QB just couldn't execute..

Baker just can't extend plays...

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See !!! lmfao


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Regarding the play you posted, if Baker had recognized the D, he should have known that there was no pass to be made on the right side, so he should have dump the ball to the player who was in motion and had the left side of the D open... or at least was 1 vs 1

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I *hate* these sorts of plays.



Freddie needs a shock collar that zaps the snot out of him every time he tries to call a play that involves a WR moving into the backfield.

Also, zap the snot out of #13 and #80 every time they sit down in the backfield like this, or every time they practice their silly one-handed catches and then drop a ball that hits both hands.






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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Like clockwork ... we’ll hit on 3-4 straight plays, then get overly cute and lose yards or get a penalty


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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We still don't have a fullback on the team.


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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
I *hate* these sorts of plays.



Freddie needs a shock collar that zaps the snot out of him every time he tries to call a play that involves a WR moving into the backfield.

Also, zap the snot out of #13 and #80 every time they sit down in the backfield like this, or every time they practice their silly one-handed catches and then drop a ball that hits both hands.






I'd like to add #13 throwing 70 yard passes to #80 during warmups while giggling about which 'illegal' shoes they plan to wear that day.

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Originally Posted By: tastybrownies
We still don't have a fullback on the team.
I’m afraid if we did have one though, we’d be too tempted to hand the ball off to him on 4th and short in the key part of the game with Chubb on the bench


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Originally Posted By: tastybrownies
We still don't have a fullback on the team.
I’m afraid if we did have one though, we’d be too tempted to hand the ball off to him on 4th and short in the key part of the game with Chubb on the bench

I'd still prefer handing it to a 240 lb fullback with a few steps of momentum, who is used to running the ball, than having Bakers arse sifting down the LOS looking for a gap out by the tackle..


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j/c...


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Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...


I get that the numbers are somewhat staggering and it SEEMS apparent what we should do but I have a question...

Is this also a result of the fact that we are in 12 more on favorable downs where running the ball is a serious consideration, thus making throwing more effective? I mean, if we go 12 set on 3rd and 11, is it likely to be as effective?

This is not rhetorical, I genuinely don't know the answer.


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...


I get that the numbers are somewhat staggering and it SEEMS apparent what we should do but I have a question...

Is this also a result of the fact that we are in 12 more on favorable downs where running the ball is a serious consideration, thus making throwing more effective? I mean, if we go 12 set on 3rd and 11, is it likely to be as effective?

This is not rhetorical, I genuinely don't know the answer.


Here is link where can adjust the numbers based on down and distance for frequency and success rates from Sharp Football.

It appears we have never run out of 12 personnel on 3rd and long, however, on all downs included (I arbitrarily chose 5 to 12 yards to go) we have been much more successful out of 12 personnel.

Lots of info in this link to play with....

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/personnel-grouping-frequency.html

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Thanks, I'll dig into that after the family goes to sleep tonight.


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https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11...ilm-review.html


The Browns on 3rd and 4th down: How they’re tipping off opponents and why OBJ isn’t getting the ball more -- Film Review
Today 4:58 AM
Cleveland Browns vs. Denver Broncos, November 3, 2019
cleveland.com

Cleveland Browns head coach Freddie Kitchens walks off the field after their loss to the Denver Broncos, October 30, 2019, at Empower Field at Mile High. (John Kuntz, cleveland.com)

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By Ellis L. Williams, cleveland.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- On consecutive third-quarter red zone plays against Denver on Sunday, the Browns ran the ball, needing only three yards for first and goal. The first carry to running back Dontrell Hilliard on a third-down shotgun run totaled two yards. With a yard to go, Baker Mayfield lined up under center with Hilliard set behind him, signaling a quarterback sneak.

The issue isn’t Hilliard getting the ball on third down (a play we’ll discuss later). It actually was a great call, just to a player not yet capable of converting such a pivotal down. The real folly arrives on the fourth-down play and ultimately the personnel dressed around it, which doomed Mayfield’s sneak before the snap. Kitchens tips his hand on fourth down when Nick Chubb does not reenter the game.


CBS’s announcing team knew Mayfield was keeping it and clearly Denver did, too. While there are plenty of reasons to question coach Freddie Kitchens’ playcalling, he would never give Hilliard back-to-back red zone carries as Chubb stood idle on the sidelines.

Yet that is exactly where Chubb was as Mayfield did the expected, keeping the ball and coming up short on a call confirmed by replay.

Third- and fourth-down sequences like that cost Cleveland its sixth loss and dashed any realistic playoff hopes while casting more doubt on a team that promised so much. Third and fourth downs weren’t only a problem on Sunday. The Browns rank 29th in third-down conversion (30.6 percent) and 29th on fourth-down (27.7 percent).

But let’s focus solely on Denver. Of 17 gotta-have-it plays (15 third downs and two fourth downs), only Odell Beckham Jr. and Chubb earned multiple first downs. Four players (Antonio Callaway, Ricky Seals-Jones, Mayfield and Hilliard) did not convert their chances while Jarvis Landry earned one first down on four targets.


The ball isn’t going where it should when Cleveland needs a first down. Or perhaps more accurately, Kitchens tipped his hand too often, while Beckham and Chubb were underutilized. Let’s take a look at third-down and fourth-day plays from Sunday to identify why the Browns were predictable, where the ball went and what needs to change.

Broncos deny Landry

Targeting Landry as much as Mayfield did on Sunday became problematic once Denver established that they were not going to let him win across the middle. On Cleveland’s first drive, the Broncos sat on Landry’s crossing routes, setting the tone. On this second-down play, Mayfield locks on and waits for Landry, without ever seeing Broncos linebacker Mailk Reed.


It’s no coincidence Landry’s fourth-quarter score came on a throw to the outside. Mayfield was 1-for-5 targeting Landry across the middle, but 5-for-5 throwing to him outside the hashes.

When Mayfield looks across the middle, it’s often for Landry. But this is well known by every opponent, resulting in double teams, especially on third downs. Mayfield often locks on Landry, and doesn’t look elsewhere.

Denver decided to take Landry away, and how Kitchens wasn’t aware of this prior to Mayfield’s fourth-down throw on the final drive is inexcusable. If he was, then Mayfield should’ve been told to look elsewhere.

Now for the Hilliard issue, which is more of a third-down back problem. The key issue is Hilliard isn’t getting the job done on third down. He dropped and caused the game-ending interception against Seattle and versus Denver, couldn’t pick up a critical red zone first down despite facing a soft six-man box.


Here, Hilliard completely misses his hole. Rather than taking what is available, he bumps tackle Chris Hubbard before colliding with guard Wyatt Teller, crushing his momentum. Kareem Hunt is expected to return on Sunday against Buffalo. He won’t solve all of the Browns’ issues but situationally, he’s greatly needed.

Prior to Hilliard’s run above, his number was called on a similar third-and-short early in the second quarter. Seeing a two-high safety set -- as he did on Hilliard’s fourth-quarter stuff -- Mayfield reads his read/pass option wrong, which blows Hilliard up by a blitzing Duke Dawson (20).


On the failed fourth-quarter red zone run by Hilliard, Kitchens called the same play but the other way and without a run-pass option. Again, there is no issue with the call. The box is light and Hilliard needs to find a way to get the extra yard. It’s the decision not to put Chubb in on the following play that is a killer.

With Chubb out and Mayfield under center, anyone watching (including Denver’s coaches) knew a sneak was coming. Sometimes in football, that is okay -- stopping sneaks can be difficult. But Cleveland hasn’t earned the privilege to operate with such certainty.


Cleveland needs to utilize every act of deception available to maximize its short-yardage plays. That would have been the case if Chubb had been in the game.

Where the ball is going

Understand this: The best teams avoid third downs altogether.

When a coach says “We need to get to third-and-manageable,” that is dated thinking. By being more aggressive (and effective) on first and second down, third-down efficiency matters less. The Patriots -- and the Eagles and Rams as well -- figured this out years ago.

Winning football avoids “third-and-manageable” and instead chases “third-and-never.” However, since the Browns are not an efficient offense, Kitchens and company face third downs often (15 on Sunday, compared to nine for Denver).

To no one’s surprise, Beckham and Chubb were the best on third down on Sunday, each converting two of their three chances. Beckham caught one first down and generated a defensive pass interference on another. Chubb converted two third-down runs, both in the second half.


Cleveland was 3-for-9 on third down in the first half, with zero Chubb touches. A second-half adjustment generated three Chubb third-down carries; but such predictable personnel groups shouldn’t take an entire half of a must-win Week 9 game to change.

Beckham didn’t get enough targets on must-have downs because Mayfield felt more comfortable throwing across the middle and toward one-on-one matchups. Beckham plays mostly on the perimeter, running routes outside the numbers with a safety nearby. Since Kitchens won’t scheme Beckham open, it’s on Mayfield to force-feed him.

Fixing third and fourth downs

It’s extremely unlikely, but Kitchens should try starting Kareem Hunt and play Nick Chubb as the third-down back just to confuse teams. That would challenge opposing coaches to consider adjustments to “the book” on Kitchens’ third-down personnel and play-calling tendencies.

Fixing third down beyond being more creative/deceptive with personnel means correcting Mayfield. He missed open guys on Sunday, throwing into double coverage and locking onto receivers.


On the Browns’ final offensive play, watch Mayfield’s eyes. Rather than working deep to short, he looks at his running back, peeks at Broncos cornerback Coty Sensabaugh before identifying Landry open.

But this is the NFL and seeing a guy open before throwing it usually means it’s too late. Mayfield throwing to Landry on a shallow cross -- at least on Sunday -- carried a success rate lower than Charles Barkley’s career 3-point shooting percentage (.266). It shouldn’t have been considered with the game on the line.


Assuming the Browns will get more explosive on first or second down feels foolish. So the next-best option is obvious but perhaps more productive: throw it to Beckham.

Two of his five catches were explosive plays. His first converted a third down and he drew a fourth-quarter pass interference. Mayfield isn’t looking at Beckham enough when he is open. At the same time, he often decides to throw to him even when he’s blanketed, which is fine because he’s OBJ -- but it illustrates Mayfield’s premeditated decisions. On this play, which set up Landry’s score five plays later, cornerback Chris Harris (25) jumps the route but Beckham still wins.


This is a testament to Beckham’s ball skills, game-breaking tendencies and ability to be matchup-proof.

In the week leading up to Denver, Kitchens and Mayfield vowed to clean up presnap penalties and turnovers, which both happened. Perplexingly, the Browns reverted to an old vice. Red zone struggles and third-down woes should be corrected by now.

Adding Hunt will make Cleveland more versatile and should stop baiting Kitchens into tipping his hand. As for Mayfield developing eyes for Beckham, that remains to be seen. But if Kitchens doesn’t start making in-game adjustments that Mayfield can apply, third and fourth down execution won’t improve.


you know if these writers are catching on. . . . everyone in the NFL caught on 4 weeks ago.


Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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j/c...

Coaches still trying to get things figured out...


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j/c:

More play-action.

Problem solved. thumbsup


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Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...

Coaches still trying to get things figured out...





I wonder if that's Monken taking a shot at Freddie.

like... yeah, I know we need to get him the ball. Freddie is the one that won't let Higgins on the field.


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I wonder if that is Monken trying to undermine Freddie the way Haley tried to undermine Hue; with the thinking of "I'm next in line"


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Here is what to do........

Screw all this cuteness on offense Freddie & Monkey!!!!!!!!!!!

Put Chubb AND Hunt in the backfield and run the HELL out of the ball to open up play action!!!!!!!!!

Then, hit Landry and OBJ when they think the run is coming!!!!

Why is something so easy not done????????????

That is my "scheme."

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Nothing overtrumps bad coaching.

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I'm thinking there is a number one issue on this offensive scheme that is not even being discussed, does anyone know what it is, just say the position.

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I think the offensive scheme, hold that!
I think the coaching has been holding back the offense since the opening drive of opening day, even though that one scored, it was a hodge podge of unrelated plays,

Like someone said in the gameday forum, nothing sets up the next play.

How do the Browns get 3 Fg ending drives vs the Broncos which started a first day QB and never get the lead in the game.

The lack of ability to not be predictable, among other things, the inability to use all aspects of the game, an obstruction this offense has to try and overcome.

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Ditto ... Pretty simple and straight forward . Still concerned about the Teams pass patterns !

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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...

Coaches still trying to get things figured out...





I wonder if that's Monken taking a shot at Freddie.

like... yeah, I know we need to get him the ball. Freddie is the one that won't let Higgins on the field.


I think this may be more and more likely. The obvious answer is to put Higgins on the field more if you want him involved more.


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Originally Posted By: waterdawg
Ditto ... Pretty simple and straight forward . Still concerned about the Teams pass patterns !


I've read enough around the interwebs to believe that the route running has been too inconsistent all too often.

Coupled with Baker firing short passes at 100 mph and our OTs being a mess it's a wonder we get anything going on offense at times.

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Originally Posted By: tastybrownies
We still don't have a fullback on the team.

D'Ernest Johnson?

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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Originally Posted By: tastybrownies
We still don't have a fullback on the team.

D'Ernest Johnson?


Dude......


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How many other teams in the NFL have a toss sweep play that is used as often as us?


Is there even another team that uses the toss sweep?


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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
How many other teams in the NFL have a toss weep play that is used as often as us?


Is there even another team that uses the toss weep?



Fixed it for ya.


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J/c

In terms of Offensive scheme inside the 5 yard line, can anyone pinpoint what the issue(s) are? Is it lack of OL push? Getting too cute? Inaccuracy by Baker? Lack of reading by Baker? Poor route running? Badly schemed/spaced players?

Instead of starting a new thread, maybe just continue it here


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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IMO when we get to the 5 yard line or closer; run the damn ball!!! We always had Chubb and now we have both he AND Hunt. Put them both in the backfield in that situation with 2 TE's. Now the D has to respect you may run it and you can always use play action and throw to 1 of the TE's. They catch it fine. We have too many weapons to not score TD's in the red zone.

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Everything you said. Just some dumb stuff, can't call standing there a route. Just dumb. What does he think he is doing? Who is he fooling? How many fails before you adjust?

Thank you, Higgins, however it happened. This win does not validate the RZ lunacy we witnessed. Glad to win.


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I would like to know this. We can do without it and we should.


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Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
J/c

In terms of Offensive scheme inside the 5 yard line, can anyone pinpoint what the issue(s) are? Is it lack of OL push? Getting too cute? Inaccuracy by Baker? Lack of reading by Baker? Poor route running? Badly schemed/spaced players?

Instead of starting a new thread, maybe just continue it here


Yesterday it started with a desire to force feed it to Odell. The Browns have heard the criticism of not getting Odell invoked in the redzone. Baker actually made a pretty pass but Poyer was beat and committed the penalty.

The rest of the plays were a combination of bad design, poor execution, terrible push by OL, and Buffalo playing great D. Too much offset fullback plays and trying misdirection when they should have just run the I and taken it up the gut. 4 straight times. If you get even a yard, you can QB sneak it the rest of the way.

Our playbook and playcaller are not confidence inspiring. I keep saying this but I am begging Freddie to please do the right thing against the Steelers. Grind, grind, grind...a win against the Steelers and the season is suddenly not lost.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
J/c

In terms of Offensive scheme inside the 5 yard line, can anyone pinpoint what the issue(s) are? Is it lack of OL push? Getting too cute? Inaccuracy by Baker? Lack of reading by Baker? Poor route running? Badly schemed/spaced players?

Instead of starting a new thread, maybe just continue it here


Yesterday it started with a desire to force feed it to Odell. The Browns have heard the criticism of not getting Odell invoked in the redzone. Baker actually made a pretty pass but Poyer was beat and committed the penalty.

The rest of the plays were a combination of bad design, poor execution, terrible push by OL, and Buffalo playing great D. Too much offset fullback plays and trying misdirection when they should have just run the I and taken it up the gut. 4 straight times. If you get even a yard, you can QB sneak it the rest of the way.

Our playbook and playcaller are not confidence inspiring. I keep saying this but I am begging Freddie to please do the right thing against the Steelers. Grind, grind, grind...a win against the Steelers and the season is suddenly not lost.


I’ve been jokingly telling people at work, I’m going to down load a “21 Personnel Playbook” from Google and send it to Freddie.

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