DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker or Lamar

I'm just sitting here watching Browns 5th Quarter They ran a poll on who is the better QB. Baker, Lamar or Allen, Baker had over 60% Lamar 34% and allen6%. I love Baker like a son but damn that Lamar is good.

I know Swish really liked Lamar . I disagreed with him but now not as much. Lamar is a once in a generation player. I'm still not sure how long he can stay healthy.

I'm wondring how you Dawgs feel Would you trade Baker for Lamar? Not that either team would do it....I'm still a Baker guy.

Baker all day every day

Well, if you have Lamar you have to change a lot of your personnel and OL and scheme, play calling, etc ... it’s a full commitment. It would mean we’d have to change a lot IMO

Baker over Lamar any day ... JMHO

I'm a Baker fan all day, but Lamar is out playing all expectations IMHO and there is not even a comparison this year. That run in the Cincy game today by Lamar was magical. It was like he was a ghost just vanishing in front of defenders.

I gotta say ... Jackson is really impressing me. I still think that he has a ways to go to be a "great passer", but man, he is a big time weapon.

He’s way ahead of the curve compared to what most thought ... and he’s surrounded by a great run game/play makers tailored to him

Baker got drafted into a dysfunctional organization with a poor, loser culture. There's a good chance that at the start of his 3rd year, Baker will be on his 4th head coach. The Browns GM has been on the job under 2 years.

Lamar got drafted into a functional organization with an outstanding, winning culture. They have the same coach going on something like 10 years. Their GM was part of a succession plan put in place to maintain continuity in approach and culture. Their defense lost its three best players, but their defensive standards are still high.

All of this matters. Here's a better question...do you think Lamar would be having the same success with the Browns? If you do, you've answered your own question. He's better than Baker. If the question makes you pause, then maybe you agree there's something to what I'm saying.

You know it's funny...I thought Allen played reasonably well today especially when he had time to throw...I went over to a Bills board and they lambasting the guy with comments like "he's not a franchise QB".

I think fans are neurotic about their own teams.

It's funny ..... one Harbaugh brother made a runner/thrower in Kapernick into a decent option at QB and even got to a Super Bowl ..... and the other is doing the same with Lamar.

Really, no other modern team is doing the same.

Uh.............you were in the game day thread. The negativity was beyond belief. You were part of it.


Run chubb.......dammit, why'd they run chub? Get OBJ the ball.........dammit, why they tossing to him? Kick the fieldgoal...............last week griping about kicking field goals.

Yes, I include myself as part of the neurotic.

Browns fans are never happy.

Tell us what there is to be happy about.

I actually agree... Lamar here and we're not better. He went to the best place for him, much like mahomes.

Josh Allen is the Jeff George of franchise quarterbacks.

I still don't think he's good and I'm glad he's not here. But i think he also went to a better situation than most realize.

A win.

Obviously.

At least rish admitted it.

I'll not be soon going back to the game day thread during the game. Only reason I was there today was because it's one of what seems to be yearly games where the Browns weren't on here.

The negativity was unreal. The "fire Freddie" comments, and worse, were just ..............to me, pathetic. Idiotic, really.

The several people that have probably never played a down of football in their lives calling our coach, and players, stupid........demanding they be fired?

Eh, at least I get to see the rest of the games myself. Didn't go to a bar to watch today, cause my daughter was home.......plus, I don't like going to a bar/restaurant to watch a game anyway.

There's negativity because the Browns are 3-6 and to the naked unprofessional eye they don't look like they are coached very well. Tons of penalties. No flow to the offense. Consistently calling plays that the team seems to struggle with. Bizarre rationale in pressers on legitimate questions about decision making. All during a season where the Browns supposedly added talent and were supposed to compete for the division.

Is it really that hard to understand?

I mean some of the in game stuff is over the top. But in general this fanbase has a lot of reason to be negative.

Okay.

Today was the first I "watched" a game on the game day forum. I was amazed at the negativity.

Baker has heart, but Lamer is outplaying him and a lot of others in the NFL, he's on a team that is 7-2, Baker's team is 3-6, that speaks volumes. Not saying it's all Baker's fault, in fact, it is not, a lot of our issues fall back to coaching, same as always. (albeit, we've had out lack of talent times, as well.)

There's plenty enough talent on this team, we should be 6-3 but we're not and the Rats are leading and likely winning the division.

Now, as for the long haul, unsure, Baker could turn out great or could stay around mediocre, just depends on coaching and talent around him.

I'm way too biased to answer this question, being an Oklahoma fan. Having admitted that, OU boards are going insane over Jalen Hurts, a running QB. He's actually got better passing stats than Baker OR Kyler through the same number of starts....but his running is off the charts! And fans are NOT happy with him. It's like he's going for the Heisman rather than for the team win. At least that's the perception. (and I don't really buy it...fans are so fickle...but WHAT would we know about that, lol).

I think Lamar is a good guy, who wants to win. But if his running starts to give off a "me" aura, instead of a team vibe, look out. That said, he is amazing, and my hat's off to the Ravens for their utilization of him.

The most significant thing you said there, rishuz, was “ to the naked unprofessional eye”. a bunch of folks who watch games from their living room think they know more about calling plays in the nfl than coaches who make a living doing just that. A bit like me critiquing the performance of my cardiac surgeon during open heart surgery.

Funny thing is we ran a textbook drive in our first drive today and a great drive on our final possession. Apparently that was smart Freddie. The rest of the game play calling was done by moron Freddie. Except of course they were the same guy. Maybe the difference was execution by the players on the field.

Well Freddie and Monken. Who designed the plays for the goal line 8 play beat down? Can't get it in, in 7 plays and don't even try for a FG on the final play?

That's some Captain Stupid right there. Whoever designed it and called it.

It's not like this RZ problem is new. They had this problem all season.

That, and not playing Higgins because of a "beef".

Maybe someday Freddie will put the team first instead of himself.

Interesting article that came out on cbs sports line saying the browns analytics team said stefanski should have been HC, so now we know how dorsey “flexed his muscle”

The team before "99" ...Or the ugh !!! you knowww ..them otherrrrrrs

However you can't argue with the results.

The Browns are 3-6.

Let me repeat that...3-6.

Baker outplayed lamar head to head browns 1-0 verses ravens this year end of debate.

That's my worry about hm.... one hit and he could be done.... long term I'm hoping baker isn't better but this year Lamar is balling...

2-1 lifetime vs Baltimore.

As the resident Lamar fanboy on this board, let me address this in as much detail as i can, that way, EVERYBODY on this board is very clear on where i stand with this topic, as of now:

while i get the reason you made this thread, DD, i actually think its unfair to Baker to ask this question right now.

Rish continues to bring up the one excellent point: lamar went to a stable, winning organization, that knows how to develop players and stay consistent. Remember, this is the same organization that stuck by Kyle Boller for a while before giving up on him due to injuries and inconsistent play.

the browns give up on guys the moment fans start booing them.

we are also an organization with little to no history of tailoring offenses to a QB's skillset, only trying to force players to fit a scheme. The ravens do round pegs in round holes, while the browns do square pegs in round holes.

so for Rish, he is right when it comes to that. based on history since 99, there's absolutely no reason to believe lamar would've had the same success here as he is in baltimore right now.

so i hope everybody understand point 1: there's no one here who can claim lamar would be better as a brown than baker, as its pure speculation based when you look at it from a big picture standpoint.

now, to point 2, which is the actual skillset, development, and success between baker and lamar

**disclaimer* i know nobody in the organization reads our boards, but we talk about this team because its OUR team, so understand that when i say what i say *****

Edromeo and i tried to tell all of yall on this board about lamar's dynamic ability. we straight up told yall, and yall constantly went after us.

remember, yall went after me after i said we needed to draft Watson, and the majority of this board were hellbent on Trubisky, despite having only 1 year of starting experience and no accomplishments.

and look how that turned out.

yall didnt want to listen when we explained to you guys that Lamar also threw over 3500 yards passing with a great TD:int ratio. yall blew it off

yall didnt listen when we explained to you that Lamar's coach was Petrino, who coached a pro level offense that Lamar had to learn in Louisville. yall blew it off.

yall didnt listen when we explained to you that most of lamar's runs were scrambles in college, and that he actually played very well in the pocket when given time. yall blew it off.

yall didn't listen when we explained to you that lamar was actually very accurate, and that he had very little talent to throw to in louisville. yall blew it off.

yall didn't listen when explained to you that lamar's last season stastically was BETTER than the previous season when he won the heisman. yall blew it off.

i stated during the 2018 draft season that if i was to rank the QB's, it would be Baker, Lamar, Rosen, Darnold, Allen. i wish somebody could find those draft threads cause we can see everybody's stance on that.

but if we had an organization that actually tailored to a players skillset, then it we shouldve drafted lamar. but because we aren't, you HAVE to pick the most accurate QB, the guy with the moxy, the passion, the leadership, and the guy who can play in the pocket, and that was baker mayfield.

as of right now, THAT HASNT CHANGED.

look, i love lamar as a QB. yall all know that. but jesus guys, baker BROKE the rookie TD record. he went toe to toe against lamar last season in a BIG game for both teams. Baker is that dude, i have his jersey, i rep the guy even though im critical of him, and i really do believe the guy will bring us titles.

but some of you guys have a very archaic way of evaluating QB's. its why you missed on Lamar AND Watson. which is crazy because when it comes to those two, this board always criticize them because they arent your typical Golden boy prospect.

but then all of a sudden when it comes to guys like baker, who arent the typical golden boy prospect, yall make it about "it factor" and "will to win" and such.

yall have to understand that from my perspective, its a massive contradiction on yall part. yall like stereotypical QB's.....until all of a sudden, you don't. and then you guys would try your asses off to find any sort of unconventional standard to evaluate Lamar despite the fact that STAT wise, the ONLY QB that was a better prospect than lamar was indeed Baker. not allen, not rosen, and for damn sure not darnold.

Lamar is only 22. yet guys like YTown act like lamar would never develop into a passer. the guy has INSANE talent, and now look.

the guy is making tons of plays from the pocket, is accuracy has improved tremendously because he has the work ethic AND talent to improve. he's not taking big hits despite running a lot, and he's leading his teams to victory, and getting some MVP hype right now. and once again, he's about to lead his team to a division title. you guys were absolutely wrong with your evaluation of Lamar jackson.

but Baker has shown insane accuracy. he shown he can read defenses. he shown he can make all the throws, he is a guy that fits NE ohio better than Lamar does simply because of the blue collar nature of our fanbase. the issue right now is our HC and offensive scheme. i dunno if we would even be having this conversation had we kept williams as the HC and kept the same offensive scheme, because maybe it would be baker with the mvp hype, with the 7-2 record, etc.

as of right now, i still want Baker over Lamar, due to a plethora of reasons.

but i have said it before, and ill say it again: we ALL have to acknowledge one thing:

Baker mayfield's offensive coaches in oklahoma were WAAAAYYY BETTER than what he has now. our coaches suck. they arent focusing on baker's mechanics, and the guy is basically winging it out there. we need better coaches or Baker will be ruined to the point that we will never know who is truly better.

+1000

Honestly, I think All the Qb of the 2018 NFL draft class are severely flawed, just in different ways.

Mayfield is too short and lacks athletic ability compared to guys like Jackson and Allen. He does have an above average arm and seems smart enough. Question his commitment, he has regressed this year, you can tell he didn't watch much film or work too much on football this offseason as he is having trouble even reading basic zone coverage, but he had time to make 20+ commercials. Sorry it has to be said and its valid point no matter how many Baker lovers don't like it. He should have been working on football instead of filming commercials.

Jackson isn't really a natural passer and relies more his athleticism than football smarts. Seems to be the hardest worker of the group considering his major jump from year one to year two.

Josh Allen is stright up raw, has the most potential of all of the QB in that draft class, but won't really hit his stride till year 4 barring any major coaching changes. He came from a small program and simply needs time to learn the NFL game, but he is probably the best passer of the whole group in terms of pure talent.

Sam Darnold was probably the safest pick of the group. I only rated him slightly above Mayfield simply due to his physical traits (6'3 225), and having played at USC as I see the PAC 10 as a much stronger conference than the Big 12, no one plays D in the Big 12, Sam Darnold played against much better D in the PAC 10. Darnold would need a year longer than Mayfield to really hit his groove since he played less season of college ball than Mayfield which means he was less experienced.

Overall I had the QB rated based purely on talent and risk as and my ratings haven't changed.:

Darnold
Allen
Mayfield
Jackson

I still see Mayfield as the 3rd best QB from the 2018 draft class. That doesn't mean we can't win with him though, he is just a bigger risk/chance than Darnold or Allen would have been. Of course Allen or Darnold would have taken another year or two worth of commitment which the Browns have a history or lack there of which is probably why they took Mayfield.

I still don't think we can properly compare any of these guys post draft until ABOUT 2021.

Good post Swish,

I remember prior to the draft stating Lamar Jackson was the most polarizing prospect since Mike Vick...Just a fabulous athlete, game breaking speed, and superb arm strength...he can just throw anything with relative ease. I remember someone asked me if I thought he was worth a 1st round pick...And I knew for certain if Kizer went in round 2 (Who I thought was a round 4 talent) That Jackson should be a 1st round pick, no questions...I also remember Jackson's last year, he lost all 4 of his WRs to graduation...And he still balled out like crazy.

I admit he wasn't my number one guy though...

I hated Trubisky and saw nothing much in him at all...Loved Watson as my #1 prospect as well.

I still remember telling everyone Blake Bortles is nothing like Big Ben besides maybe in frame....I loved Bridgewater coming out.

A lot saw Baker as Drew Brees...I saw him more of Jon Kitna.

I will admit I was wrong on Mariota and Rosen though hahaha

You make a valid point, players are at fault for execution, much ofthe time, but, just to play devil's advocate, who teaches execution? I believe that is thecoaches. Freddie has shown his inability to learn, he does the same thing over and over and he has only 3 wins to show for it. Play callign is important, is it possible he's NOT calling the right plays for the talent he has on offense?

and thats fine bro. i understand 100% why people wouldnt make lamar their #1. but my beef was the constant moving of the goalpost people did in order to disregard lamar as nothing more than a glorified running back.

if people used the same standard to evaluate lamar that they did with other QB's, there'd be a lot less drama in the debate. and i admit i drove a lot of that drama.

but keep the same standard. if people will make excuses when it comes to talent or lack thereof of the supporting cast for one QB, then they better keep that same standard when evaluating another QB.

that didn't happen with watson, and that didnt happen with lamar.

i wasnt tripping about Bakers height because guys like Brees and Wilson changed that narrative. you can play or you can't. and hell look at kyler murray. the guy isn't any taller than my mom, and yet here he is, absolutely balling.

i think a lot of people missed on Rosen. i got convinced to like Rosen by Vers, and....eh. he reminds me a lot of Goff, in regards to needing a really creative coach and talent due to a lack of athleticism.

so far i was wrong about Allen. the guy is developing nicely and really reminds me of Cam Newton in his play style and raw talent.

Baker all day and night long.

If Baker and Lamar run the same read-option play does the defense react the same?

I'll take baker because 1. We cant have Lamar 2. No running QB lasts long 3. Baker can be good for a very long time. He needs to get past this sophomore slump

Lamar couldn't get the broadside of a barn when he passed the ball in college. He has grown up a lot and had really put in the work in the offseason.

How is this even a question?

Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator for both teams during their "running" QB stages as well. The guy has been mediocre otherwise, but has a knack for that type of offense/QB.