DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker or Lamar

Don't think its true... Lamar always had a good arm and has always been a good passer.

Same for Deshaun. I also think its a requirement for mobile QB's to be good passers, specially have good arms and the ability to throw from unconventional platforms.

j/c

Just because you mentioned the term OC ... I read the report that said we wanted Stefanski from Minnesota, but Jimmy and Dorsey went with FK.

I have to say: Minnesota’s offense looks A LOT like I’d want ours to ... and they have very similar personnel (Cook, Diggs, Thielen, and a serviceable QB) ... dang

This was true last year as well and but Baker played better last year.

I look at the question in similar but slightly different way. But both of our questions require detailed look at each QBs skillset and how those skills fit in with their respective teams.

Simply put though, I think if you insert Lamar into this current iteration of the Browns the offense/team would improve. If you're into advanced stats they try to quantify this through EPA (expected points added) and Lamar's EPA is significantly higher then Baker's (even if you isolate passing and exclude running).

j/c...

Nothing like cherry picking stats to try and prove your point.

Why are you even discussing this?

This topic should be deleted or moved to the smack shack.

It doesn't matter at all until they get some stability and a competent coaching scheme.

Everybody knows Baker is the best QB of any one drafted the year he came out, but the Browns' organizational dysfunction have gone a ways toward ruining him,

as they would have any of the others that could have come to the Browns.

I wasn't trying to prove any point. Just an interesting tweet. Lamar has been impressive in his young career.

I'd rather have Baker.

So in other words.... "I told you so".

Baker is a QB Lamar is a RB trying to be a QB ...

Really?

He's thrown 15 td's and 5 int's so far this season.

He threw for 88.2% pass completions yesterday. He's thrown for 65.9% completions for the season.

If he's "trying" he's doing pretty well at it.

Really I would take Baker everyday of the week Lamar is one hit away from being finished he runs way to much and most of his passes are behind the LOS to 10 yards down field ...

Umm...don’t most QBs throw passes between the LOS and 10 yards?

How’s is that somehow a knock on Lamar? This is exactly what I’m talking about. These imaginary narratives, as if that same standard doesn’t apply to Baker or anyone else.

Lamar might be one hit away, but we’ve already seen Baker take WAY harder shots than Lamar this season and last.

And he runs no where near as much. That’s a fact.

Looking objectively... Lamar has done what has been asked of him and he's done it reasonably well.... as for how good he is and what his stats "prove"...

Of his 15 TDs, 8 of them came in 2 games against the Dolphins and the Bengals... Against teams with a .500 or better record, (4 games, New England, KC, Seattle, Pittsburgh).. he has 2 TDs and 3 INTs.. but the Ravens are 3-1.. soooo, there is that.

Lamar has been put in a perfect situation, a strong running team with a good defense and organizational stability... he's not making many mistakes, he's using his legs very well, and he's almost constantly throwing from good situations because they don't make a lot of mistakes, they get up in games, and they are usually ahead of the chains...

I wasn't trying to suggest that I would take Lamar over Baker. But let's be honest here, a QB is given a game plan and expected to execute it.

Claiming Lamar is "learning to do that" seems rather silly.

In the words of Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

The Ravens, and Lamar, have done an excellent job of developing and executing gameplans.. that's why Lamar's rating in the 1st quarter is like 134... that's why they have only really been behind in 2 games all year in the second half... and they lost both of them...

It's to Lamar's credit that he hasn't had to execute game winning drives because they are almost always ahead early... but at some point he is going to have to win a game late and we will see if he can do it.

You mean like the October game against Pittsburgh?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=JackLa00

I don't think anyone is afraid of Lamar Jackson having to pass his way to get a come from behind victory.

The Ravens look like a total one and done team in the playoffs. They are not as good as they appear.

For perspective...

The game winning "drive" in this game was the result of a JuJu Smith-Schuster fumble at their own 35 yard line giving the ball to the Ravens already in FG range for Tucker.

The drive consisted of:

Jackson rushed for 3 yards
Ingram rushes for 1 yard
Jackson rushes for 2 yards.

Tucker boots GW 46 yard FG.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201910060pit.htm#all_pbp

That's a lot of perspective.

And they won!

Yea.. he was 2 for 2 for 17 yards on 2 dump offs and about 5 running plays to get into FG range... He got the win, good for him... He did enough. Not sure why you think I'm bashing Lamar because I'm not.. just saying, I haven't seen a guy who can overcome adversity and win a game late... maybe he can...

I was simply responding to this.

So sense Baker has beat him badly in head to head does that make Mayfield hall of fame material ?

Pit, I will just conclude my participation in this debate with this... I think Baker and Lamar both still have a LONG way to go to prove that they possess the entire skill set and can be consistent enough to be a teams 12-15 year franchise QB...

I think Baker benefitted last year from a LOT of hype because of how historically bad the Browns have been.. I mean, raising somebody from the dead is far more impressive than just keeping somebody alive to begin with.... and that's what Baker appeared to do.

Lamar is benefitting this year from the organizational situation, which is ideal for a QB like him...

Baker got punched in the mouth at the beginning of this year.. he seems to be coming around... Lamar is really yet to get punched in the mouth with any serious adversity but he will.. then we will see how he responds...

The jury is still out on both of them. For now Lamar is certainly having more success. I do however agree we will not know who Lamar really is until adversity comes knocking.

My comments were purely based on the production of the two at this point in time.

and he's still never going to be a Cleveland Brown

But oh, those commercials! I can relate to the newest one where Baker is trying to find the alarm that is beeping.

But I digress...

Call me giddy, but I think Kareem Hunt is going to have a bigger effect on this offense, let alone Baker, than I thought. Can't wait to see this progression when next we play the Ravens...ergo, Lamar. And maybe Freddy's a second half of the season kind of coach. He'll put it all together next year...I hope.

I think (or at least I hope) that Freddie and a number of our players approach the off-season completely different than they did last year.

Lamar IF he comes with Harbaugh.

Harbaugh is a fantastic coach and uses the strengths of his players wisely.

I just don't see Kitchens having done the same, or worse, maybe Lamar comes in when Baker would've with Jackson still as coach, runs around a bit and makes some magic before the Defenses catches up giving us a few wins. Then we still have Hue as head coach. No thanks to that.

Can't just pick the player in a bubble.

I predict Lamar will be out of the league in less than 5 years and Mayfield will still be in Cleveland. Lamar will have a MAJOR injury, and after that he'll never be the same again. Its not a matter of if but when.

When was the last time you watch Tom Brady QB?

FYI, Baker has only been effective this year when he has thrown quick reads and short routes.

Where do people get this idea that Lamar wasn't accurate in college?

Accuracy depends on the system on what type of QB you are. A mobile QB will require and have much lower comp.% than a WCO QB.

Lamar can be good with high 50's low 60's % completion, while Baker has to be on the high 60's 70% completion %.

Its obvious to me that Lamar is so much more accurate and throws so much better on the move than Baker ever did.

From watching him play QB...rather than reading about his stats.

Strikes me as a new iteration of Vick. He threw better and nobody could catch him. Then he got stopped. Wasn't Slash the same deal? Hurt people with legs, then gone.

Lamar is having individual success and deserves most of the credit. I do not think it can last.

Baker isn't there yet. But I believe in his upside. Baker.

The thing that stopped Vick was a prison sentence.

That and his lack of dedication/common sense.

What the Ravens are doing with LJ is remarkable, commendable, genius, etc. They are putting him in positions to have success and slowly develop his QB skills while unleashing his crazy athletic gift. It's simply brilliant and something I didn't think was possible...but he and they have clearly pulled that off thus far. It is the classic case of a QB going to the "right" team. With each passing week - no pun intended - he becomes closer to being a POTENTIALLY legit NFL QB. Good for him.

On the flip side is a guy like Rosen. Who knows whether that guy has legit POTENTIAL or not? We and he may never find that out. His is the classic case of a QB going to the wrong team(s). Sucks for him.

I'd still take Baker over either one because I think he's a decade-long type of QB. Last year I thought his situation was perfect for him - similar to LJ's at B'More this year. Now, I'm not so sure. Rather than build the team to suit the QB, we went a little bananas and weakened the interior of the line, didn't improve a bit at OT and weakened the TE group...not to mention getting AWAY from a scheme he was comfortable in last year. The OPPOSITE of what B'More did for LJ.

If the guys switched teams, Baker would be Peyton and Lamar would be RG3/Rosen. And I say that more due to coaching and scheme than raw talent - which they BOTH have. The Ravens did and do what whatever is necessary to help LJ succeed. I cannot say/see that about the Browns right now. JMO

That's what puzzles me, because I was watching him in college and always thought he had an amazing arm, he is capable of amazing throws in a less than ideal platform. Just like Darnold, but Lamar has much better decision making skills.

I don't think mobile QB can excel without top notch arm talent. Lamar is like RG3 without all the problems...

Vick had most of his best years AFTER he got out of prison, playing for a not-very-good Eagles team.. He had more opportunity in ATL before prison and only managed one decent winning record..

Lamar has 10x the upside that Vick had..