DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Cont.

Good info, thanks

Ummm, maybe Freddie wasn't really responsible for the offenses success last year? Has anyone considered that? Bob Willey said he wasn't...yep, I know, just a disgruntled ex-employee....but the offense sure sucks with Freddie making the game plans and game day calls...

j/c...

Some more film breakdown from last game...

I see a couple of items that need to be corrected. First, our WR's are "NOT" getting separation. These guys are supposed to be All Pro WR's and they are not not not getting separation. Second, our o-line is just good enough to allow Baker a primary or secondary look. If and when (more often than not) those first 2 receivers have not gained separation or run a bad route it forces Baker into bad throws and/or decisions.

I hate to point out the glaring differences but if you compare New England's receivers to ours it's like night and day. Not only do those guys get separation, it is mandatory that they run the expected route. Watch Brady, very seldom do you see that guy go to his 3rd or 4th option. He reads the defense and the 1st option and will quickly go to the second option if the 1st is not there. Watch how they use those 3rd and 4th options to set picks (they call it shields) to free up the main receiver. For almost 2 decades the Pats have been using and abusing defenses in the NFL because they set up their receivers and limit the amount of time Brady has to hold the ball. Basic football with basic plays that for some ungodly reason no other team can seem to master except for maybe New Orleans. Those 7-8 yard patterns constantly run by the Pats consistently moves the chains. Mix in the run with an occasional deep shot to keep the defense honest and you have a big threat offense. I and every fan of the league knows without a doubt that Edelman is going to get 10-12 targets a game and the dude is freaking always open. How is that?

The Browns need to tone back the offense and start playing controlled football. Make the WR's run the correct route and get separation or bench their azz. OBJ and Landry want 10-12 targets a game - then get open you prima donnas. Quit making your QB have to look for a 3rd or 4th option or check down because you ran a bad route, didn't get separation or took the play off because you were not the primary target. 7-8 yards per play moves the chains. 7-8 yard passes if you get separation opens up yards after the catch. Freeing up your other receivers like Callaway or the TE opens up shots for you down the line.

With the talent we have at WR there is no reason that Baker is not playing pitch and catch all day long with these guys. Add in the best RB in the NFL up to this point and I question how the hell you guys don't score every damn time they get the ball. Instead, we get prima donnas wearing non compliant shoes or watches. We get All pro WR's lining up wrong, running the wrong route and hell, even dropping the dang ball when it is thrown to them.

Baker isn't without fault and surely needs to get better at what he does but damn man, our bozo WR's sure aren't helping him out with all the screw ups not to mention penalties. Oh and one more thing, quit running 4 yard route when you need 8 yards for the first down. This happens 4-5 times a game and just proves your heads are not even close to being in the game.

Sorry to rant but until our All Pros start doing their job and help out a year 2 QB instead of all this other BS the team will continue to struggle. At this point, Perriman - Callaway - and Landry was a much better receiving corp than what we have on the field now. These guys are not working together to make this team explosive - it's all individual BS and it's about time someone called them out!

Stop blaming our receivers.

OBJ and Landry are open every play. Being open in the NFL and being open in college are two completely different things.

In college, such as when Mayfield was at OK guys were wide open with 2-4 yards worth of seperation. That does NOT happen in the NFL unless there is a blown coverage, and the Browns D blows coverage a lot because the only guys we have that can cover anyone is Ward and Mitchell, the rest of our secondary is trash.

OBJ and Landry are "NFL Open" every play, its up to Mayfield to TRUST his WR, and throw with anticipation and throw them the rest of the way open.

Brady throws his receivers open all the time. So did Manning, Brees, etc. Even Lamar Jackson is beginning to throw his receivers open.

Mayfield doesn't trust his receivers or his arm. Why was a trasn can QB like Ryan Tannenhill aboe to get Juice Landry the ball 100 catches a year but Mayfield who is supposed to be "the franchise" can't?

Its because he doesn't trust his arm or his receivers, he is waiting for guys to be blown coverage open like they were at OK and that isn't gonna happen in the NFL. Broken down Eli Manning was able to get OBJ the ball but Mayfield can't?

Give me a break, we are 6 win team right now with any average Qb not named Baker Mayfield. He may get it and improve down the road, who knows...but we would be better off playing Garrett Gilbert if we actually want to win because I gurantee you he trusts his arm, and he by god isn't afraid to throw OBJ and Landry open, that ball will come out hot, and crisp...Gilbert won't stand back there all day like Mayfield does, scared to the throw the ball.

It would do Mayfield some good to be bench (the 1st time in his life) teach him some humility. Todd Haley was right Mayfield wasn't ready and was too immature for success, his little stunt at the press conference, his play on the field, and shaving huis mustache multiple times per day proves it.

Besides, Garret Gilbert outplayed Mayfield in camp anyways and looked more like a QB anyways, we would probably be better off...at 6'4 231 he isn't going to do anything cute, he is going to stand in the pocket and throw the damn ball instead of dancing around like Baker does.

j/c

As time moves forward, it appears the many things that are contributing to "Baker's" issue become more evident/possible if not probable.

Baker's lack of trust in the O Line started in TC

Remember how we kept reading that Devaroe was 'unblockable'? How Myles Garrett was blowing up everyone? How Ogunjobi looks poised for a breakout year? How Vernon is going to set Myles free?

Baker saw his O Line getting punked in TC by a front 4 that can't get pressure against real NFL O lines - even those playing with backups and rookie 6th rounder-types on the opposing line. He lost confidence then knowing full-well what was to come in the regular season.

The coaching that probably mattered the most was let go

Freddie chose to keep and promote Lindley (his buddy) over Zampese. Opinions range on Zampese from a guy who saved or made Palmer/Dalton...ruined Cincy's O...then helped Baker light it up. There were rumblings from guys like Wylie and others that Freddie was less-important to last year's offensive turnaround than were "others".

I can't tell you how many well-respected opinions I've read that state that the inexperienced Lindley is of precious little help to Baker in gettting ready for each week's game and opponent...the polar opposite of what Baker reportedly got from Zampese last year. Zampese isn't working in the NFL right now...so who knows? But all this talk about 'getting my eyes right' and 'mechanics breakdowns' etc are the realm of the QB coach in season.

Pre-season "rest"

I don't know what it has been with Browns coaches over the years and "resting" the starters during pre-season...AND the 4th pre-season game. Weeden to Manziel to Kizer to Mayfield...play a little in games 1 & 2...a little more in game 3 (used the word 'little' twice there and could have been 3 times)...and take game 4 off completely. Wth? Newsflash: If you aren't "ready" than you need to play those pre-season games...and we haven't started a season "ready" in as long as I can remember.

Talent infusion

I'll apologize right now for saying this yet again ...but...OBJ has been disappointing, Higgins has been out and injured, Njoku has been out...Hilliard is < Duke, Kush is/was <<< Zeitler..and Hunt can't play until THIS Sunday. There has been anything BUT an actual talent infusion since last year on the Offense.

Playcalling

I'm not able to say anything in this regard that hasn't been surmised, hashed-and-rehashed, debated, you-name-it. But so far this year, it simply isn't working and isn't good-enough.

I think your explanation of the first clip is good but I believe you missed what actually happened and why. Because of the defensive lineup, it showed Baker man coverage. His primary target was the running back. OBJ was supposed to run a deep out pulling the corner with him. Reading the safety, Baker sees he has come up to take the RB. Baker then turns to his secondary target witch is Landry across the middle. The problem with the play is the TE is supposed to be running the seam route to draw the other safety deep. Because OBJ breaks off his route to go deep and the TE dogs his route and drifts toward the middle, the other safety pulls off the TE to go through Landry negating the catch. OBJ would have been the 4th option because the 3rd option was the TE running the seam which got negated because OBJ decided to go deep and the TE dogged the route.

In another post I talk about our WR's not working together to get open. This is not sandlot football but we have WR's running sandlot patterns. IMO, Baker did exactly what he was supposed to do. He looked left to see if the safety came up to cover the RB. OBJ cleared the area for the RB play but reading the safety called for going to the secondary target which he had actually looked off. Remember, we needed 4 yards to move the chains and the patterns were set as such. BTW, OBJ did not beat the DB on his out route but he wasn't the main target. Baker came to Landry running across the middle who clearly had a step on the DB. Unfortunately, due to the TE fading towards the middle and dogging the route, the TE took away any chance of a deep shot in the seam and allowed the safety to pull off of him because OBJ had pulled the corner deep and the TE was jogging around lost on the short side of the field. The safety came up and separated Landry from the ball ending the drive.

Add lib routes look pretty and can always be questioned as to why the QB didn't read the add lib. The play was to get 4 yards and move the chains but due to laziness and the add lib, the play failed in what appears to be a good read by Baker from his main target to his secondary target. His 3rd target was null and void due to a poor run route and the add lib by OBJ.

IMO, this goes back to discipline and every player doing their job on every play. The Browns issues are players taking plays off when they are not the main target and/or players going rouge. OBJ going deep would have killed the seam route if the TE had run it. The dogging by the TE combined with a poor pattern killed the deep route and ultimately the crossing route that was option 2. Option 1 - defended. Option 2 - blown due to a poor route ran by option 3. Option 3 - blown by a poor route (shouldn't have been anywhere near the option 2 route but was within 3 yards) and OBJ going deep. Option 4 - should never have to look for option 4 if the other players do their job.

We have had some slow routes where the ball is delivered and the receiver hasn't looked back yet. Drops. But BM has a tendency when flushed to escape right. He is also showing something over multiple games that is my impression, but I have seen it multiple times. Or them is more accurate. We force the ball into multiple coverage, often behind the receiver targeted. We are not seeing some open apparent 'home runs' deeper and outside on the field. He is choosing the short check down route which is too short by design for a first down. Frustrating to watch, but a few DCs ought to send chocolates for the way we fail in our passing game. Haven't seen much change in what Freddie dials up, and not sure what our line will allow. But there is enough here to do some differently. It is the lack of change AND improvement especially in our passing game. My apologies if I am mischaracterizing what I see, but there might be too much rocket science on FK's part. We seem to have a predilection for fooling the D, but we aren't doing it.

I'm not Matt Waldman.

Again - Baker needs to be better, no bones about it, that's a horrible stat, but look at some of the reasons for failure. Context is not everything, but facts play a role.


Baker tied for most passing attempts on 2nd and 3rd and 15+.

WRs 42% more in close coverage than last year.

Why? Because the same plays are being run, over and over, on 2nd and 3rd and long. Who lines up on 2nd and 3rd and long more than any team in the NFL? The Cleveland Browns.


Gameplan by opponent: First part is easy... the Browns will shoot themselves in the foot and line-up behind the chains... Once they do, here are the five plays they will run.

Mindboggling.

It's like we go out of our way to make everything as easy as possible for our opponent's defense -- from game-planning right through execution.

I saw this yesterday.. pretty interesting.

Yes it is... that's why teams play us to not give up the big play. they know if we have to go 10-12 plays on a long field, eventually we will shoot ourselves in the foot. Worst case is we get to the redzone and kick a FG.

I can't believe they got Hanover Fiste to do this segment.

I've seen better heads on boils.

I was saying that the thing which was more obvious to me, when i compare Baker this year with last year, was that he is less nimble and slower..

Does this impact his play? I suppose it does, at least his scrambling and pocket movement are not the same, and his mechanic's also are impacted by his form and mass.

Is this why he is playing so bad? Probably not but I would hope so, because its an issue that has an easy fix.

There’s no doubt he’s heavier, and only he knows the effects of weight gain. If it is that much of an impact, then I’m sure this offseason he’ll tweak the training/eating

I thought Baker played better yesterday than he has in the past. Hopefully, he gains some swag from this win. Pittsburgh definitely has their mojo back on defense. You can see it with the way they play.

The Steelers are beatable if the coaches are willing to alter the offense. I mean I wouldn't even mind multiple 3 and outs if all three plays are runs. Need to come out and slow the pass rush down. No empty sets, not even once. Show the Steelers they are going to be in a dogfight, ground it out game and they are going to have to spend 60 minutes tackling Chubb and Hunt.

The offense the Browns have been running this season will not beat the Steelers. Please Freddie, swallow your pride and do the right thing.

Is Rappaport part Hobbit? Talk about a set of ears....

Umm .... I think you are talking about Andrew Siclliano ..... who is a big time Browns fan, and is the host of NFL Now.

This is Rappaport:

Best think for Baker is, IMHO, to get used not being in the spotlight,just let him develop. This is Chubb's team right now, and most of us is OK with that.

We will not get anything good if we keep on hyping him, for good or bad. Just let him develop and he will be OK.

I know sunday he threw two that should have been picked .... and i know there was at least a few the previous two weeks ...

Bake is playing better as of late but lets not get carried away ...

We’ll see just how much he's improved this week ....

Don't forget that 7 or 8 of Baker's interceptions first hit a Browns player in the hand/hands/gut and two were a result of a business decision by Jarvis and a non-existent route by Braylon. Still...Baker must continue to improve if we are going to win games.

I’m not sure what the exact number of INTs is that were Baker’s fault or the WRs fault, but this reminded me of the year when we had Kenny Britt ... it seemed like it’d hit his hands and bounce up for INTs an incredible amount

I didn’t forget .... it wasn’t relevant to the discussion ....

the stats were from the last 3 games ... i was referring to that time frame and how much hes improved not the entire seasons body of work ...

Braylon ....

Well, he also had many where the receivers bailed him out.

Baker was making many hill advised throws, and he still is... not so many fortunately,but he still has to many WFT throws...

Every QB enjoys a WR bailout at times...every QB makes throws that get dropped by the defense...but, I can't EVER remember a QB having 7-8 interceptions by the mid-point of a season that hit his receiver first.

I bolded a relevant comment above.

So let's see if I have the list up to date now......

Baker's struggles are the fault of.....

1. Freddie

2. The OL

3. The WR's.

Did I miss anybody?

Nope, but his struggles aren't the fault of those, and he isn't at fault for theirs; they are in addition to his.

the fans loudness

Braylon Edwards?

Braylon... OBJ... same person.

Attention whore, supreme talent, can make all sorts of acrobatic catches that "wow" you, can't catch the routine ball that hits both hands.

What a horrible take. Braylon Edwards had one great season and was average to below average to bad in all the others. OBJ was historically good unless he was injured. He also hasn't had any issues with drops until this year. OBJ has nearly 600 more yards than Edwards but has played 44 less games.

j/c:

Up to this point, no QB has dealt with more receiver drops than Mayfield (21) and has the 2nd highest drop % per attempt (6.8%).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing_advanced.htm#advanced_passing::18