DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Among Millennials and Gen Zers, socialism is nearly as popular as capitalism

I think they favor a hybrid of both like models in Europe. This isn't driven out of an unpatriotic mindset but rather the lack of upward mobility and the ever elusive if not extinct 'American Dream'. Young people don't want to spend their lives paying off the debts of the last three generations who kicked the can down the road on credit instead of facing the changes in the world.

I don't blame them for not wanting to be indentured serfs for the sins of their forefathers. But inevitably the wise old ostriches from those previous generations will pluck their heads from the sand long enough to air their contempt and scorn at the ridiculous idea. How dare they want or expect a quality life based on a fair shake for their toils.

I just remember becoming an “adult” when I joined the army.

I came up with the country begging for the country to do something about healthcare, the worse financial crisis since the Great Depression, income inequality skyrocketing, and a bunch of other problems.

School cost was already out of control even before the government started handing out loans. I never seen so many people with bachelor and master degrees joining the enlisted side of the military because their were no jobs during that 07-09 crash.

My generation was told by Gen z and baby boomers NON STOP to go to college. Then we go to college, and now people are mad that we didn’t get the right degrees. Fast forward to now, and the majority of degree programs out there are useless, or maybe gives you a slight edge. School is ridiculously expensive, and my generation keeps being told we’re a bunch of babies, even though the baby boomers and gen z being in control of government AND the labor force at the time we’re the reason we’re even in this mess to begin with.

Yea, my generation is highly skeptical of capitalism, because in our lifetimes, it hasn’t been beneficial. I’m sure the older guys will talk about the glory days and blah blah blah. But I was born in 87. I didn’t turn 18 until 2005.

In my lifetime, capitalism for this country sucked ass hard. Yea, we prefer the A toned down version of the European model, because unlike all the boogeymen conservatives would have us believe, yes, they do have free markets, and private insurance and such.

As someone who lived in Germany and in the US, I can say from my own personal experience that the main benefit to being an American is how easy it is to start a business or change careers in this country.

But that doesn’t mean much for people who have zero intention of owning a business, which is the majority of people.

People want us to believe in capitalism, yet haven’t provided much evidence for us to actually support it the way the older generations do.

My thoughts are all over the place on this, but that’s where I stand. I want something closer to the middle of capitalism and socialism. What we have right now is massive imbalance, and it’s causing a lot of resentment toward these systems.

I was just thinking the same as you. One can exist without the other. both sides need a boogyman to blame things on.

The answer is a hybrid. Fiscal conservative/Social Liberal

If the state isn't there to serve the people, then what's it's value?

Where the rub comes in is, "What does serving the people" actually mean?

To some it means making sure every American has healthcare. To others it means every American should be forced onto a government plan.

To some it means a big reduction in the cost of college making it a reasonably affordable option for all. To others it means everyone gets free college while others pay the entire bill.

I think the difference lies in helping people and handouts to people.

Healthcare is a must, how you attack it is where the problem occurs.

Mayor Pete seems to have (on the surface) a reasonable idea. If you like your current insurance, keep it. if you don't, you hop on the public system.

Medicare for all won't work. At least not for free. There must be some cost. As a senior, I pay for Medicare each month.. I also pay for a supplimental plan. Same for my wife.

The VERY effective Medicare system is in place. Use it as your foundation. but I doubt it could ever really be free.

As for education, First and foremost, stop Betsy DeVos... that woman has to go.

State Colleges could be tuition free, but if you wanna go to Harvard, you are gonna pay up.

When you say, handouts to people,, you are speaking of our neighbors.. What's wrong with a handout to your neighbor?

^ THIS +1000!

I've always been one who is more for a hand up than a hand out.

It seems that a college education is looked at as an all or nothing sum. As it stands it's far too expensive and many measures can be taken to make that cost very low. That to me is a hand up that works for everyone.

But as it stands it seems some wish to go from the silly high cost we have now to free. One extreme to the other.

Neither seems to be a rational solution.

Obama dismissed far-left positions as not being popular among average Americans, even if they make waves on social media.

“Even as we push the envelope and we are bold in our vision, we also have to be rooted in reality and the fact that voters, including the Democratic voters and certainly persuadable independents or even moderate Republicans, are not driven by the same views that are reflected on certain, you know, left-leaning Twitter feeds,” Obama said.

Where have I heard that before?

Free Healthcare isnt free.
Free College isnt free.

Gen laZy are dumb and gullible.

They see "Europe" and want that. Newsflash, European countries also pay a vat tax, on top of their federal income tax. Vat is equivalent to a sales tax. And guess how much it is. On average 20%. Their "free healthcare" has to be paid for somehow.

Do you want all of your purchases and expenses jacked up 20% to pay for your free healthcare?

You wont hear the socialist manipulators talking about that.

In those debates they repeatedly asked Bernie how he was going to pay for the free healthcare. And all he could do was stammer and try to change the subject.

So, idk about the 20% number you talk about, but lets say that is.

How much does cancer treatment cost you over say 2 -3 year period? how much do scripts, insulin, and other medicines cost people each month?

Honestly, I don't know the answer if Medicaid for all would work, and I certainly have NOT been a promoter of it on these boards. But after watching what my parents have gone through, and seeing the amount of money I have paid for SMALL medical procedures out of pocket before my deductible kicks in (and I still pay 20% after that until my max), there has to be a better way. Cause this way aint working.

Decent post. I may disagree with a few things, but, oh well.

Yes, for quite a while, high schooler's were told "go to college, it's your best hope for success."

Colleges jumped on that train in a heartbeat, offering majors in pretty much everything, kids fell in line, borrowing money they didn't have, to get a degree that very possibly may not be of any benefit to them.

Many/most assumed they would get their degree, then have a desk job in an air condtioned office, pounding away on a keyboard several days a week, and working from home a day or 2.

The 'trade' jobs were looked down on. Plumber's, road construction, carpenters, electricians, welders, etc.

Those jobs require skills as well. Skills that, in an apprenticeship for 2-3 years, you will be taught at no charge, and you'll actually be paid to learn.

YOu get a career, a good paying career, with no debt to show for it. You don't get some prestigious job title, and yeah, you have to do physical work as well. You also get job security, as well as excellent benefits most places.

I could list about 20 friends - no college, that now make 6 figures, at my age down to 10-12 years younger than me.

A friend owns a construction company - mainly road and bridge, they don't even do the paving anymore - they are desperate for employees that can: pass a drug test, show up for work and WORK, and willing to do some driving to the job. Guaranteed min. of $50K the first year, along with health insurance, vacation paid, dental, etc.

And, it doesn't take long, for those that can pass a drug test, show up for work, and WORK, to get to $60K, then more. It DOES require driving to the job though, and you sweat in the summer, and you're cold in the winter. And it's union, so you put your quality time in, bam, pension.

Why dont you go read about Vat tax and then you will know about it.

I'm not voting for anyone who supports that.

I’ll gladly pay a little more in tax to make sure furniture generations have better opportunities than me. I’m already sacrificing a ton up here.

It's really unfortunate, but you're 100% correct on the college thing. Maybe someone a little older than me can say with more certainty, but it wasn't that long ago that college was everything they said it was and then BAM... it seemed like overnight that tuition was skyrocketing. Schools were pumping up tuition to pay for newer and newer buildings to attract more students.

Usually I'm all about taking responsibility for yourself and your decisions, but I find it hard to harp on most of the people I talk to that got bit by the 'just go to college' shtick.

Couple problems.

It won't be "a little bit more in taxes.


2. You tell us often enough how much you are sacrificing. Would you care to tell us how you benefit? You told me, care to share it?

As I've gotten older that's where I find myself.... I tend to be more fiscally conservative but on most social issues am pretty liberal...I want candidates that can work together or at least be in the middle....

Conflating socialism with healthcare for all is how millennials view socialism.

Not even close.

Conflating socialism with Venezuela is how GOP'rs view democratic socialism.
Not even close.

I can offer my opinion.. if you want to pinpoint a decade where things really started to change, it's the 80s..

Things were changing, people started embracing foreign cars as more fuel efficient and better made, America was becoming less about manufacturing and more about "tech" as personal computers were quickly becoming a thing...

Everybody with one of those good blue collar jobs was planning, not for their kids to follow them into the world of union factory work or the trades.. but they were planning for them to go to college.

This is around the time that people started to view college as a "necessity" to economic independence and job security. This increased demand dramatically increased demand on colleges.. increased demand requires facilities, facilities are expensive, cost began to go up significantly faster than wages...

College is pumping out more and more and more college educated people, more women are graduating from college, more minorities are graduating from college.... white collar wages are beginning to stagnate from "excess supply" in the job market.

Colleges get more competitive for the top students coming out of HS, to get the top students you need the best facilities so they begin investing in a ton of stuff that has nothing to do with academics, building "suites" instead of dorms, rec centers, food courts, etc.. cost of college continues to escalate.

Move into the more modern tech era, colleges need to have all the latest "stuff" to entice the best students, robotics, BSL labs, all kinds of stuff that I can't even name that costs a fortune... cost of college continues to escalate.

Meanwhile many of the folks who graduated in the 80s and 90s have experienced relatively stagnant wages that are barely keeping up with inflation so they are having enough trouble getting by so there is NO WAY they are saving anywhere close to enough money to pay for 2 or 3 kids to go to college so the kids end up taking out significant loans...

Now we have a glut of people with college degrees, which used to be a differentiator in getting a good paying job, now it's just "Meh, ok, you went to college"

So now here we are...




** before anybody gloms onto my comment about women and minorities graduating from college.. I'm not saying that was a BAD THING or something they didn't deserve.. just stating that it is something that played a role in the economics of it all by rapidly increasing the influx of college educated people into the job market.

Neither Capitalism or Socialism are problems. Either/both can work. The problem is when those with power corrupt the system to get and keep more power for themselves.

To me it's a problem when money sitting in a bank gives its owner more reward than the person working hard labor for 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week is earning. How is money in a bank providing society more value?

I also think the stock exchange is fundamentally flawed. It's basically gambling without the stigma, and it is rather extolled as virtuous. It relies on the assignation of arbitrary value with minimal connection to reality.

That makes me think of our fractional reserve banking system, which allows banks to "gamble" with other peoples' money. Why should the banks get the reward for risking other people's money rather than the people it belongs to?

These systems aren't inherent to Capitalism, but the have pervaded and corrupted the modern version.

America is capitalist for capitalism's sake. "We" want money for money's sake. We don't think about it that linearly, but that is the message that is constantly sent. Forget that studies show that after a certain point having more money doesn't make people any happier. We're too focused on money. We're "trained" to desire and think that we deserve more money. It will fix all "our" problems.

We're told we have to have the newest, best, most expensive "toys" to show how hip we are. Nevermind that those things are designed to fail and be replaced by the next newest, best thing, so the company can keep making money.

Nevermind that this medicine is killing your liver that will require you to take another medicine to cover those affects up because your food, "beauty" products, and other modern conveniences are slowly poisoning you. But look at all the money those businesses are bringing in.

Yes, we can "live" to 100 to sit in our comfy chairs that will assist us getting up because we can't stand on our own and watch QVC while taking a handful of expensive pills everyday. We'll probably have our hearing aids turned up and the volume at full blast while trying to focus through tri-focals. We're "well-preserved." Nowhere near as healthy as the original, but who cares. Corpses don't pay taxes or for healthcare.

/Endrant

I went to Case in the early 00's. By that time, they were well underway in transforming their campus. Huge, new suite-style dorms... the ridiculous Peter B. Lewis business building... retrofit after retrofit of the main gym. All of that money spent in order to attract more applications. The president got tossed out on his butt because the school's budget wasn't keeping up with all of the construction.... meanwhile, they're charging tuition rates well into Ivy-League level for a school that was clearly a rung or two below.

So that's when I was in school, and that was what was going on. As a student, you're told that a college degree is the key to unlock everything, and there is such a thing as 'good' debt. Student loans was one of those.


Here is my take. A college degree is an investment. There are good investments and bad investments, and the difference boils down to a person making a decision about their future. Going to college and selecting your major shouldn't just be this juvenile "what subjects do I like... I guess I'll do that" thought process. You should really consider what it is you want to do after school, and how your degree will get you there. Also, if your plan doesn't work out, how will your degree help you to otherwise earn a paycheck?

On the flip side, colleges need to get their act together. Just flicking a magic want and making college free for everyone isn't a viable solution, but there is a lot that educational institutions can and should do to make a degree far more affordable. IMO, there are only a select few colleges that have the leverage to basically charge whatever they want for tuition. The vast majority of schools should be looking to attract students based on a quality of education vs cost balance.

j/c





We can all blame anything we like on why this has happened. But one thing I think everyone can agree on is something must be done to help solve this problem.

Agree. Bachelors degrees now are a dime a dozen and are the new high school diplomas. Masters Degrees are the new Bachelors degrees.

I graduated from Ohio State in '03 and even then I don't remember it being considered a major accomplishment. It was just something that was expected.

My opinion is that if It's a state school that receives Government funding, then it has a responsibility to the citizens to provide affordable schooling. And tuition prices should be regulated/capped by Government. (how very unlibertarian of me to say.)

We pay the taxes for that funding, afterall. We should get our money's worth.

Private colleges on the otherhand, should be able to charge whatever they want. If you want an exclusive college then you can pony up the bucks for it.

Cool, but you still didn't answer any of the scenarios o asked about.

I don't know if health for all is going to work ( I used to be very adamant against it as well)

I do know that what we have now IS NOT WORKING.

I do know that what we had before Obama care DID NOT WORK.

I do know that I have and family members have had medical issues and cost that far exceed 20% tax you talk about. So either you pay in a tax, or you pay in a lump sum where about .01% of the world can afford too, whats the difference? Your going to pay, right? I would rather a vat tax than them putting liens on my house and assets when I cant pay the medical bills I have. Unless you have been through a medical procedure or treatment that like that - its hard to understand.

But I watch as my mom has to pay hundreds of dollars a month for insulin - or kids 700 for epipens, and you wanna complain about a vat tax.

What are you going to do when you need 4000 a month care? Its going to happen yo know.

Exactly how do you calculate 20% of everything you ever purchased in life EVER and decide it is less than some med you have to buy?

20% of every house, of every car, all your clothes, food, entertainment, college, appliances, every bill you ever had, everything you ever owned.

You and your parents must be bums living on the street if a med costs more than that.

This is why I dont have convos with you. You make up imaginary nonsense and cannot think logically. Or do basic math.

Yes, and no. ???

To an extent, public schools are cheaper on the 'list price', in comparison to private schools.

Now, keep in mind, I'm talking in general.

However, private schools generally have more 'funding' available for scholarships. GENERALLY.

They all cost too much - but that's a different story. Colleges/universities, imo, are in the 'get students' first mode, and 'educate them' second.

Some people advocate that if you get sick enough, they simply take everything you worked your entire life for when you die.

Some people advocate that if you get a serious illness, you will be in debt for the rest of your life.

Some people advocate that corporations make huge profits and the sickness of their fellow Americans.

Some people advocate a system where Americans pay the highest prescription drug prices on the planet. That it's okay for drug companies to price gouge Americans on needed, life saving medications like insulin and people are dying as a result.

I have a problem advocating any of that.

The only reason colleges get away with these outrageous costs is the accreditation system. There should be a very inexpensive online streamed college course/degree/ongoing education system governed and accredited by the state. The courses curriculum should reflect the immediate and future needs of employers, public needs, research, innovation, and entrepreneurship.

Local shared spaces for hands on labs for those courses that require them and local industry specific "trade school like" apprenticeship/hands on training environments could become a low cost alternative cottage industry.

But this kind of training, much like coding bootcamps or online certification courses must be viewed as equal to accredited degrees. In my experience, intense industry specific training produces better entry level employees than most four year college programs anyway AND as an added bonus they usually take less than a year to complete. In an economy like we have, speed of training/retraining would give us a much needed advantage beyond the lower costs.

Courses like college english, math, comms, and other basics should be mandatory basic requirements in the k-12 program. Our k-12 program today produces illiterate non-functioning adults and is a disgrace IMHO.

I don't know. If I am on the operating table, then I want to know that the surgeon that is cutting into me received an education with some sort of standards.

I am totally on board with the increased use of digital content for education, that should be driving down the cost of education. But, a lot of these Universities are driving up costs by turning into 5 year resorts if we are being honest. When I went to college, we basically ate cheap fast food and cafeteria food. Now, the kids at OSU have healthy meal options, cooked to order right in front of them. That costs money. When I went to college, we had an exercise facility with 3 treadmills. If you go to OSU now and check out the RPAC facility, it is literally the nicest fitness facility that I have ever seen. OSU keeps investing in these upgrades because students expect these things and they need to keep enrollment up.

So its strange now because there are a number of cheaper education alternatives that are having trouble attracting students, but students still choose to go to these 5 year resorts and then complain about it afterward because it wasn't free.

As a tax payer, I am a big of funding education. I want the U.S. to have the most education population in the world. But, I really have an issue with the government spending our tax money on degrees from some of these institutions that are spending money on a lot of things that have nothing to do with teaching.

One thing not mentioned is that you won't have to have to pay your part every paycheck for your present health insurance. That would probably pay for any extra vat tax(if that is used as the revenue source).

What makes you think you won't have premiums to pay? Medicare has premiums. Although less than standard insurance, it doesn't cover everything standard insurance does. And so you will have to purchase additional supplemental insurance on top of that.

Y'all don't understand the socialist extremists are trying to game you. They want a Communist nanny state and "free stuff" is the bait. Your health is the perfect bait, because they can use scare tactics.

Don't be a stupid mouse.

That's a crock of crack pipe smoke! Communist Nanny State, socialist extremist, free stuff bait, blah blah blah... talk about scare tactics! Then you suggest he's a stupid mouse? Truth is you have no damn idea what you are talking about and just want to play GOPer Libertarian Contrarian bash the left games with words you don't even know the meaning of! You've become just another trumpian troll spewing garbage and wallowing in BS.

The math on single payer is so brain dead simple you could teach a monkey to do it in about 30 seconds. We already have this system for the military AND it works. Countries all around the world have it, and it works... THEY PAY LESS AND HAVE BETTER CARE!

What you and your ilk are afraid of in reality is ANY CHANGE WHATSOEVER! You've been shafted so many times by your elected officials that you fear anything any of them try to do that might help you. So you shamefully berate those that genuinely do want to make things better with crazy rants like that one! If you voted for the left you would still have net neutrality, affordable health care, better wages, affordable education, and maybe even a life outside of work and the bar because you could afford to do SO MUCH MORE. smh

And before you tell me how you can do whatever and money is no issue with you, I know that is not 100% true and I also know you need good insurance. There is no reason to be so cold and closed minded when what you are really fighting for is the status quo that has already failed you! Just stop.

Your rant means -Nothing-

You are right that I need good insurance.

I am one of those your side wants to play the victim card, but I refuse to do so.
I am one of those with pre-existing conditions.
I do not have an employer to pay my way.

I am well versed in hospitals stays, er visits, expensive meds, surgeries and procedures. Because I have Crohns.

However, I am not some weak minded fool. I am not the gullible idiot your socialist extremists prey on (you included)

I am self employed. I know exactly how much insurance costs.
And how much it covers.

I know damn well that your scummy socialist ilk want to jack up taxes to pay for the "free insurance".

I know Bernie proposed a 7% tax hike last election cycle.

I know it would cost FAR MORE IN TAXES than I would ever recoup medically, regardless of whether I had health problems or not.
I know your tax hike would cost far more than I currently pay out pocket for my premiums.

Because unlike the morons who vote democrat, I can do math.

So, sit and spin, dude.

Maybe you should face your extremist reality that nobody would ever vote for your crap.

The left had a coronary about the "Trump Tax Cuts" because they didn't get their piece of the pie.

And now you somehow expect them to be OK with tax HIKES of 7-20% to pay for a fairytale?

Please do get out of your snowglobe and come to reality.

Your misogynist superheros might give thumbs up for your rant though.

SHAME.

It's ok Eve, I still love you, most of the time. You're like that pain in the rear little sister. I can yell at you but nobody else better try... but you still don't know what you are talking about.

I love you too, but I know exactly what I'm talking about.

The dirty little secret Bernie tries to sweep under the rug, named taxes.