I'm OK with them canning Freddie. Don't really understand why he was hired to begin with. I gave him the benefit of the doubt which is now gone due to poor play of the team. The thing that concerns me is can we get a good replacement with the track record we have? I don't think that can be factored into the equation...but...
1999 Chris Palmer 2000 Chris Palmer 2001 Butch Davis 2002 Butch Davis 2003 Butch Davis 2004 Butch Davis / Terry Robiskie 2005 Romeo Crennel 2006 Romeo Crennel 2007 Romeo Crennel 2008 Romeo Crennel 2009 Eric Mangini 2010 Eric Mangini 2011 Pat Shurmur 2012 Pat Shurmur 2013 Rod Chudzinski 2014 Mike Pettine 2015 Mike Pettine 2016 Hue Jackson 2017 Hue Jackson 2018 Hue Jackson/Gregg Williams 2019 Freddie Kitchens 2020?
This is our list of head coaches, including interim, since Browns came back as an expansion team. 11 head coaches for 21 seasons. 9 if you exclude the interim coaches (Terry Robiski & Gregg Williams). So thats basically either 1.9 years/coach or 2.3 years/coach, depending if you include interim.
Since Haslam got the team obviously it is worse. I think he got the team in the 2012 season if I remember correctly. So in 8 seasons, Haslam has had 6 head coaches. That includes Shurmur (who wasn't his guy) and Gregg Williams... even if you don't include those guys, he has fired 4 of his own head coaching choices. That is basically 2 years per coach (or less).
As I said above... I would *NOT* hang on to Kitchens for the sake of hanging on. How much time do you give a coaching staff to get it right? 3 years probably is a good time table. At least it would make coaches more likely to come here. I think it makes it harder to get assistant coaches too. Who wants to move their family after a year....
I have a bad feeling that they keep Kitchens if he wins a couple more games.
There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.
There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.
I don't think Freddie abandons the run per se.
It's that the offense has no identity or flow. No rhyme or reason to it. He runs when he should pass. He passes when he should run. He goes empty backfield on running plays completely eliminating any doubt that it will be a pass. He takes shots on down and long to go when you should be taking shots on down and short to go. The players don't seem to really know what they're doing or where they're supposed to be. How many times a game including this one do you see Baker correcting guys on where they should be? It's week freaking 12. How many times are we getting to the line with like 7 or 8 seconds to go.
No, this isn't a he isn't running enough problem. I think people are confused. This is a complete offense problem with multiple issues.
It's pathetic quite frankly. The fans deserve better.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
One big thing I’ve noticed: Our PA game is non-existent, or at the very least ineffective. We don’t have plays that build off one another .. we kinda just seem to call stuff to throw it against the wall hoping it sticks.
When we’re in the shotgun so much, the PA game doesn’t work and Baker just haphazardly fakes it to the back ... never sells anything
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.
I think a lot of this goes to the head coach calling plays. The HC has to watch the whole game and make decisions, such as when to go for it, when to challenge and other stuff. The OC can just focus on calling plays. If the OC is calling plays, then he already has three or four plays ready when the ball is placed, cause he's looking at the playbook during the previous play. If the HC is calling them, he's waiting for the result of the play to decide which plays to call. Not sure how the Browns do it, but most teams call 3 plays in the huddle, and then decided when they get to the oine which one to run, (I know that's what Manning did in Indy) but if the HC is calling them, then the plays are getting in late so the team is rushed and that's when the penalties start.
Also, call plays that are tailored to your team. Yesterday, they said we are like second in the league in points on opening drive, that's because those plays are scripted. Then, once those plays are run, it's Air Freddie the rest of the way. We had way too many 5 and 7 step dropbacks against the Steelers, their Dline is way to good for that. We need more quick throws, draw plays and screens. Our Oline is not that good, and we had a backup tackle in the game. So, get the ball out of Baker's hands faster.
One more thing, NO MORE EMPTY SETS INSIDE THE 10 YARD LINE. You got Chubb (1200 yrds) and Hunt (2017 rushing champ) put those guys back there and let them work.
I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.
I mentioned in the Post Game thread - the lack of experience of fans at the NFL level means we can't comment on what's being called each week by FK? In Post Game you laughed at the idea fans would be better than Freddie at calling plays ... and I responded that wasn't the point - is it? It's all about how Freddie performs and if you think he's doing a good job. If you think calling 6 running plays the entire second half is giving the team the best chance to win the game and execute?
Then you said it was about players not executing - and I mentioned that sounded a lot like Hue. Hue called perfect plays every single snap but they team sucked. . . . OR maybe the coach needs to call and design plays his players can consistently execute.
Then you talked about how good the Pit D was and how much pressure Baker was under ... and a couple of people asked whether it was good play calling to continue not to double team their best pass rusher ... whether it wouldn't have been good too see the RB's chip their edge rushers. Whether it was still a good idea to continue to call mostly pass plays that took receivers on medium or deep patterns that needed time to get open.
I'd say any/all of those questions and observations are valid. It doesn't deserve a derogatory response to sarcastically be referred to as 'geniuses' for wanting to see improvement from Freddie ... the guy who looked like a deer in the headlights in the biggest moments of the biggest games this season. . . . I've said it consistently from about game 3 - Freddie's ability to be a HC and OC worries me and I want to see improvement. The penalties have improved, the play calling has improved and has been good here and there. It has not been consistently good. and there has been some damn right awful too. Early in the season Freddie consistently panicked and went pass happy. He did it again yesterday and we have one of the best - if not the very best - RB duo in all of the NFL available in the backfield. AND what worked on the long drives in the first half? ... the running game. And then we ran the ball 6 flipping times 2nd half in a game we were never down by more than 10 points.
Last edited by mgh888; 12/02/1908:53 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
"Freddie is an idiot" "Coach stinks" "why give motivation to the other team" "no discipline"
literally just spent an entire segment on how the HC is supposed to deal with distractions, not create them.
Sad, I have to agree.
I'm afraid that that says a lot as to why we have so many issues with discipline and unnecessary distractions. It's 'just a T-shirt' when you show up and win...it's a needless distraction when you lay an egg. I don't think even BB or John Harbaugh would bother to take that chance.
It's time to take away play-calling from FK. And YES...I know and understand that that is why he got the gig in the first place. BUT...he's either failing at what we thought he could do...OR...he's doing what he WANTS to see work rather than what has a good chance to work. He is not the OC we had the last 7 ish games of last year.
This experiment isn't working. The plan was decent with a rookie HC and two experienced coordinators beside him. But we have not gotten better as the season has progressed...our offensive flow outside the "script" is non-existent...our defense has no teeth outside a handful of players...our opponent has/gets our 'number' without even needing the benefit of the halftime break to stifle/beat us.
When you try to 'catch lightning in a bottle' and fail to do so. You shouldn't then pivot to playing the 'continuity card' as your sole/primary justification for not moving on.
It didn't work...it's not improving...next man up.
You don't hire a running backs coach as your head coach and expect them to be a master.
Too many injuries, too many "player" problems, Myles, Baker not playing well early (partially scheme), lots of what I would call "unlucky" turnovers.
In addition, entirely new staff, rookie HC, one of the youngest rosters in the league, Two corners sitting with hammys for friggin 4 weeks.
Randall clearly disgruntled with his contract situation. The whitehead incident.
It looks like what you might think if you aren't a Browns fan....rookie HC, installing two new schemes looking extremely sloppy the first half of the season. Unquestionably, despite this loss the team has looked a lot better lately and I trust will turn some heads playing Arizona and the Bengals twice.
I’d bring Gregg Williams back. I don’t need him to call an offense or a defense. Leave those to coordinators. I just need him to coach a disciplined team and create a fire under these players. If this was a disciplined team that was serious and took itself seriously from Week 1 I have no doubt we’d be pushing Baltimore for the top in the division
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
A lot. The Duck was instructed to throw it up every time that happened. Our corners suck.
Smart coaching by Tomlin. Have Duck throw a bunch of 50/50 jump balls. With the amount of pass interference called in today's game, why not take the chance?
Browns never challenged deep unless they were chucking 65 yard passes before the half. Which that sequence of events was another level of stupidity.
I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...
He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...
He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.
I’d like to add this crap philosophy of “1-0” when you’ve reached a game described as having a playoff atmosphere and real world implications. I get not wanting to let the team to get distracted by the remaining schedule. But this game should have been played with a sense of urgency as if it was THE game that would put them in the playoffs next week. But instead this team came out flat and uninspired. But that’s ok because we can always go “1-0” next week.
If he’s retained I hope he spends a lot of time seriously trying to sort out his philosophy.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
IMO the bottom line is Freddie was hired as HC because he and Baker worked so well together last year. You can't blame John Dorsey because it looked like we caught lighting in a bottle. The O looked great and then we added OBJ. We took a shot with Freddie and it hasn't worked out but it did look like a shot worth taking. At the end of the season it all has to be evaluated and decisions have to be made. It's not the Haslams fault or JD's fault. It was a shot worth taking. JMO
I agree with Homewood Dog. Freddie was a shot worth taking based on last year.
Now, the people who get paid lots of money to administrate need to make the best decision moving forward. Admit that the shot did not work as expected. Chalk it up, and hire someone better for next year. This guy ain't making it.
The Haslams set the culture and tone of the organization. It was cute early on when the Browns players and HC were talking trash and acting like they arrived before playing a single down. Now, they're losers and still talking.
Players have attitude issues, get suspended for drug violations and are immediately rewarded with playing time only to have it burn the Browns. Training camp participation is seemingly optional for some. Lack of discipline team wide. One of the most immature teams I can remember.
Freddie preached focusing on eliminating outside distractions, not to become a distraction to the team, move forward to the next game and keep the rest in the past. He then proceeds to wear a 'Pittsburgh Started It' t-shirt and gets embarrassed by a team starting their 3rd string QB for the second time this season and then doubles down on his decision during his postgame presser.
This is absolutely the type of culture permitted by the Haslams and to a reasonable extent Dorsey. But, ultimately, it starts all the way at the top.
Chud was the worst coach the Browns have had since the return and it's not even close.
I think you are forgetting Hue.. Kitchens
my least favorite was Shurmur
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
What good would it do? I mean people worry about things all the time. Yet it has zero impact on the outcome of anything. It's just an added distraction that does no good.
As far as I'm concerned I hope he manages to stay focused on each upcoming game and doesn't allow himself to worry about things that worrying can't change.
Not that it's done much good so far.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Hi guys, sorry I haven't tweeted in a while. I had the damndest time finding another "Free 1000 Hours" AOL disc.
Anyways, ready for a rational #Browns take?
The Browns are almost exactly where they were supposed to be
When Dorsey hired Freddie he wasnt planning on competing for a Super Bowl this year. He was planning on 2020-2022 (when all the rookie deals expire). Thats why he hired Freddie, to grow with this team and QB.
“The first task at hand is be very competitive in the AFC North and see what unfolds because it all starts there, and pick up where you left off in 2018 and dare to set your expectations high. Why not?" - Dorsey at his year end presser. They def have accomplished the first task
Then OBJ becomes available and they trade for him (which you ABSOLUTELY have to do if you have the chance) and all of a sudden expectations change and this is a team that supposed to compete for the SB. Thats a huge leap to make, especially for a team this young.
So if the OBJ trade is never made, were frustrated w Freddie & this team, sure. But were also saying damn thats 1 of the most talented young teams in the NFL and prob will be a contender next yr if they stop sabotaging themselves.
One trade changed the optics but not the reality
That doesnt mean Freddies the guy & this team def shouldnt have bought into its own hype & theres no guarantee this whole thing will ever even work. But the fact still remains that building a winner (especially for an org that has losing so deeply engrained in its DNA) takes time
For most teams that make the big jump “out of nowhere” you can actually see an incubation period right before it. One where theyre accumulating talent, learning how to win on the road and in big games etc.
So this all feels like the end of the world but in reality this is just the beginning of long ride with this team over the next few seasons, for better or worse
just want to remind the board that with all the crazy injuries and coaching nonsense in NY...the jets have the #6 overall defense, led by gregg williams.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
