DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kitchen's not worried about job security.

Yeah, but I mean.........

Yep. Freddie really said this.

I disagree with that. Coaches and GM set the culture.

Haslam hired Dorsey. Everybody was very happy when that happened. Dorsey picked his coach. Some people shrugged their shoulders, but said, ok....now it is Haslams problem?

Had people been questioning the Dorsey pick, maybe you would have a point, but they didn't, and you don't.

Yeah, Kitchens is on Dorsey. Even if Mayfield wanted him or whatever, it’s still Dorsey’s search and selection.

I bet if you gave him truth serum now he’d admit it was a poor hire

Just wanted to remind the board...

2018 defensive ranking under Gregg Williams: 30th
2019 defensive ranking under Steve Wilks: 15th

The Haslam's, specifically, Jimmy has always been a problem.

Hysterical. I can't imagine believing ownership does not set the culture of a franchise.

Almost as hysterical as "We are Johnny Football."

100% this starts with the Haslams. They created the situation that pitted Depo against Dorsey. They created an environment where it was about getting your way, not what was best for the Browns. What's the quote that gets attributed to Dorsey..."I flexed my muscle" after he got Freddie? Haslam also apparently wanted Freddie. Why is Haslam even giving his opinion?

Sorry guys. Owners only do so much.

Owners set the direction of the organization and create the culture, standards, etc. They are supposed to hire people who share in that vision and can execute it.

This isn't news. This is true of any organization. The successful ones have strong leadership at the top that get those decisions right and are successful at establishing the culture.

The proof of whether they are successful in doing this is through the strength and quality of the product or service they provide.

Very few organizations succeed when the top leadership is weak.

And the Browns are one of the least successful football teams under the Haslams' leadership.

All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.

So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.

Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.

But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.

Can we have a disciplined discussion about fixing the Browns before jumping right to ‘fire Freddie’?

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...re-freddie.html


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Knee-jerk Cleveland is in full effect this week. A lot of people seem ready for the Browns to once again lead the league in immediate reactions to failure, because why try to improve a problem when you can cut it loose and bring in another problem?

Minds have been made up over a T-shirt at a movie, and if the analysis of Freddie Kitchens’ 12-game tenure is that it should end because he didn’t zip up his jacket before taking a selfie with a fan on his birthday …

You understand this isn’t normal, right?

This isn’t a defense of Kitchens, just a reminder that talk of firing a coach after 12 games only happens in a place that thinks firing is a normal solution to losing. Lose. Fire. Then win, right?

In the last 10 years in the NFL, since the 2010 season, 97 men have been employed as full-time head coaches. How many were fired after a single season?

Six.

And all their teams won immediately with the new coach. Oh, wait, no they didn’t.

Hue Jackson, fired after going 8-8 with Oakland in 2011. Hey, it’s Hue. The Raiders hired Dennis Allen, and then won 4, 4, and 3 games the next three years. And Jackson eventually found his way to Cleveland.
Mike Mularkey, fired after going 2-14 with Jacksonville in 2012. Gus Bradley followed him and Jacksonville won 4, 3, 5 and 3 games over the next four seasons.
Rob Chudzinski, fired after going 4-12 with the Browns in 2013. In came Mike Pettine for 10 wins in two years.
Jim Tomsula, fired after going 5-11 with San Francisco in 2015. In came Chip Kelly and …
Chip Kelly, fired after going 2-14 with San Francisco in 2016. The quick fix was quick, but it wasn’t a fix. Kyle Shanahan arrived and was allowed to settle in, and after winning 6 and 4 games his first two seasons, the 49ers might fight for a spot in the Super Bowl.
Steve Wilks, fired after going 3-13 with Arizona in 2018. The Cardinals drafted quarterback Kyler Murray at No. 1 and hired Kliff Kingsbury to run an offense to fit him, and Arizona is currently 3-8-1.
I’m not against firing coaches. When Jackson was fired by the Browns after 2 1/2 seasons, I wrote that no coach ever deserved it more. But usually, if you fire a coach after one season, it just shows that you’re the type of franchise that finds it acceptable to fire a coach after one season.

There’s been a lot of discussion of the Browns lacking discipline and maturity, but I think there’s been the same lack of discipline and maturity in the way we analyze this team.

Cleveland is where nuance goes to die. My priority is for what’s best for the fans, and that would be what’s best for the franchise. Another pelt for the Cleveland Wall of Disappointment isn’t necessarily that. If you looked at last week and thought, "Mike Tomlin would never do that,” well, yeah, if the Browns could get Mike Tomlin, then great. Kitchens isn’t Tomlin just like he isn’t John Harbaugh or Bill Belichick, and along with Sean Payton of the Saints, they are the four NFL coaches in their jobs for at least 10 years.

If no more Kitchens would mean one of them, do it. But otherwise, the league is filled with coaches who make mistakes, but learn; who aren’t perfect, but win; who have bad stretches, but remain the right employee for that time.

During the entire offseason, I begged fans to forget the past and judge this team on its talent and its merits. The talent is there; the 5-7 record certainly merits frustration. But there is a toxicity around the Browns that I think can affect those new to it. The Browns so often have tried to be tough this season because they can always feel like they’re fighting back. Every loss is a disaster and every T-shirt is a catastrophe, and while the Browns often bring it on themselves, the franchise has reached a point where it never gets a pass.

Every problem needs an immediate answer, when sometimes what you need to find a solution is time.

Bill O’Brien has been criticized in Houston and Jason Garrett has been criticized in Dallas, and both might make the playoffs this season in years six and 10 of their tenures.

Doug Pedersen in Philadelphia (now 5-7) and Matt Nagy in Chicago (now 6-6) both won with young quarterbacks in the past and now have records like the Browns.

Sean McVay and the Rams were a model for the modern NFL when they made the Super Bowl last season, and this year at 7-5 they’re a cautionary tale for blowing all your salary cap space.

You might think you know what’s wrong with the Browns this season. But Baker Mayfield has played better after a slow start; the Browns had at least 80 yards in penalties in four of their first seven games, but have topped that once in their last five games; and when it comes to discipline, they cut Jermaine Whitehead and Antonio Callaway because of off-field issues and Kitchens left starting safety Damarious Randall home from Pittsburgh because of something that wasn’t an injury. They’re trying to hold guys accountable.

The right side of the offensive line, guard Wyatt Teller and tackle Chris Hubbard, features two of the worst run-blockers in the league, and most complaints about the Browns not running, or failing in the red zone, start there. Thirteen points against the Steelers wasn’t enough, and the offense had to be better on a day like that. But I think that’s a “change a couple assistants and rebuild the offensive line” kind of solution. Not a “pelt for the wall” solution.

Kitchens faked a field goal and pooch-punted to the 1-yard line late Sunday when down 7, hoping to get a safety and get the ball back with a chance to drive for the win. That would have been a fantastic time to have Myles Garrett on the field. But we know why he’s not there. Once the Browns gave up an 11-yard run from 1, they were all but done.

So let’s talk about what needs to be fixed: better ways to use Odell Beckham; the high-priced defense getting stops when needed; and a couple of those major holes on the offensive line.

But can we talk about it without moving right to firing the coach? Or do we lack the discipline for that?

How do you discuss how to fix the things wrong with the team without discussing the man primarily responsible for those fixes? OBJ, play calling, discipline, attitude, lack of mental fortitude... all roads lead to Freddie’s responsibility to fix. And yes we’ve seen some progress a few weeks before this last game, but it’s occurred after weeks of denial I.e. the penalties and discipline.

Freddie may very well become a good to great HC, but he’s not showing that potential this season so far. The question then becomes how much time and money are we supposed to spend watching the Education of Freddie Kitchens instead of consistent professional football until he does blossom? Yeah Hue Jackson got more than 2 seasons... but the same reasons people had for wanting him gone then we’re the same reasons they wanted him gone over a year prior. What did the Browns gain by keeping him an extra year?

If Freddie still can’t to this day decide what he wants his offense to be, he needs to go.

You know .. throughout it all .. I still think we'd have been better off keeping Pettine .. I thought it when he was fired and think it now as well.

You get it.

The same people saying Haslam has to set the culture are the same people who were saying that once we hired Dorsey the Haslams needed to step aside and shut-up. Let the football people do their job.

The "football people" are not doing their job though. That's the problem, Peen. All that talent Dorsey accumulated means jack squat if they play for themselves. All that talent, and Dorsey forgot one thing - the willingness to run through a brickwall for the guy next to you. We got guys that want numbers and not wins. We got guys that want commercials and brands over TDs and victories.

Its not a coincidence, that the two best things we have on offense right now are Hunt and Chubb, and they are playing the most unselfish football you can.

The rest of the team, Baker included - are more worried about SI covers and followers on Twitter are having the worst seasons in their careers. Coincidence? Culture. Team. Hard work. Three things the team has sorely missed this year.

I would rather have 3 Edelmans over 3 OBJs any day of the week. OBJ is above and beyond more talented that Edelman - yet Edelman puts in the work, and his team knows he will be there each and every day 110% to the max.

Does that mean OBJ isn't a hard worker. He is. He trains hard, he works on his craft. Problem is, he only trains for himself, he only trains on HIS CRAFT. He doesn't train for the betterment of the team - he trains to make HIS 1 handed catches, while easy balls are bouncing off his facemask.

Give me 3 guys with heart and drive, over 3 OBJs and AB's any day of the week.

Want another example - Ju Ju Smith. The kid last year was humble, worked hard, loved in the locker room in Pitts. He then became a fan favorite. Know, he spent all offseason building a "brand" on social media, always has a camera crew around when hes doing something, and is absolutely turning into a ME guy. You can see that with his on the field performance as well.

Who knows what the Browns will do at season end. At best we are now on course for 9-7. However, I don't see us beating Baltimore and AZ may be a trap game. So, is 8-8 ok? Is a .50 improvement ok with the amount of money spent in the offseason? Kitchens keeps reminding us that this is a young roster, which it is, however, we have lost some truly bad games. TN torched us in an undisciplined hotmess, LA loss due to coaching blunders, Seattle we should have won, Denver was an embarrassment, Niners annihilated us, Pittsburgh we should have cruised in the 2nd half to a victory, but our coach gave up on his run game and still can't seem to get the ball to his star acquisition.

I am willing to bet that if we lose to the Bengals, who would like to do nothing more than embarrass us, then it could be the straw that broke the camels back.

Also, have I read reports that the Haslam's were talked into hiring FK by Dorsey? How committed are they to him and why are things so silent? Dorsey did one presser at the bye week, but has been silent and virtually invisible this season.

There are no trap games when you suck.

haha we are the trap game for others

I get your point, but the only thing behind/backing up the points you're laying out is frustration. OBJ, knucklehead he may be, puts in the work (as you said). How do you know his workout routine? With how much Baker throws behind/over/in front of him, practicing the 1-handers probably IS the best thing for the team...


To build off of Devildawgs post, we just got Haslam out of the thick of things in Berea. How quickly everyone forgets that ESPN article laying out the absurdity that was going on directly because of Haslam. We finally get him out of the way, and people are saying all this is on him, and he needs to go in and fix it? Wow.... again, how quickly we forget.

This team, and our coach needed time and (as it turns out) a healthy dose of humble pie. They got the latter...

I think the other thing worth remembering is how is all this drama and noise going down upstairs in Dorsey's office and even more so...w/the Haslams? There is a new drama every week and sure the t-shirt thing is trivial, the shoe thing trivial, but it all points at a bigger issue that this is an undisciplined team led by an undisciplined coach who wants to be their friend.

Because I have seen his workouts on Instagram, facebook, twitter. I have not seen him working out with the team at camp. Its obvious, and has been reported/rumored on the board, he is running bad routes, doesn't get lined up correctly, and just about every game there is a ball thrown and hes about 10 yards from it.

Maybe he should practice the 2 handers first, as those seem to be the ones dropping left and right on 3rd downs.

Im not talking about Haslam. Im talking about Dorsey. He built this team and roster, not Haslam. He brought in ME GUYS with emphasis on TALENT over HARDWORK. TALENT over ambition. TALENT over TEAM. TALENT over CHARACTER.

The teams that CONSTANTLY win in the NFL, are the teams that build with guys willing to give 110% to win a game. outside of Chubb and so far while he has been here, Hunt (which is surprising), I don't see that with anyone else.

Too worried about what they look like pregame, during game, cleats and visors, and not worried about completing a 3rd down completion.

You think what he posts on Instagram is everything he's doing?

Dorsey brought in talent. I support that. Mangini brought in TEAM guys. Dorsey also brought in Hunt, Chubb, Landry....


I don't know what the solution is to what's going on this season. What I do know is that there isn't just 1 solution.

j/c:

Mangini wasn't the GM if I believe.

The coach can only coach who is in front him. Freddie isn't coaching anyone it seems, as they don't show up to workouts or practices.

Dorsey has brought in talent, no one disputes that. But if you listen to guys who have played in the league and have been successful in the league. Then look at PERRENIAL playoff teams (NE, BALT, PITT, SEA, etc). its PAINFULLY clear and obvious you need two things.

1. A franchise QB
2. a TEAM around him that buys in, and puts winning over stats and individual performances.

Tom Brady isn't some physically gift specimen that is out of this world. He plays to live another day (throws the ball away and doesn't take sacks to hurt his team), his WR and OL give 110% because that is DEMANDED from them from the TOP down (Kraft/BB).

Same with the Steelers, same with the SEA, same with Balt (although Lamar is a freak specimen - they still won with Flacco and Dilfer for crying out loud).

TEAM over PLAYER. We don't have that. I know people don't like 850ESPN on here, but Jerrod Cherry has been preaching this SINCE BEFORE THE OFFSEASON. When we traded for OBJ, Vernon, etc. He said the only worry he had was accumulating individuals and not building a team.

He has maintained that, and you are seeing the results as we speak.

oh and as far as his post on Instagram, its a point. He doesn't practice and is "limited" each week on the injury report.

He didn't show up to OTAs, and spent most of camp on the sideline as well.

So yes, what he post on Instagram is all I think he does, because hes not working with the team

Its quite obvious that we don't have a franchise QB. Worst thing that we can do is to try to justify a players fault with other players...

Team above player, I agree but that is for all players...

I honestly fail to see any problem with OBJ,Landry, Hunt and Vernon...

He wasn't the GM in title, but he was in action.

yep. when I saw we brought him on... I was pumped.

When Freddie said Monk needed to learn our offense and Freddie was going to call the plays... I knew we were doomed.

"The teams that CONSTANTLY win in the NFL, are the teams that build with guys willing to give 110% to win a game. outside of Chubb and so far while he has been here, Hunt (which is surprising), I don't see that with anyone else."

Hunt's not surprising at all. He grew up like we did, a Browns fan, dreaming of one day playing for the Browns. I think Baker is also a team guy. I see him running down the field to congratulate anyone making a good play. Same with Landry, Bitonio and Tretter... Beyond that .. ehhhh .. not so much. We are all different. We show who we are in different ways. The guys mentioned are the guys who stand out.

J/C
If we would part ways with Kitchens...what about bringing Greg Roman in as HC.He's done an amazing job with Lamar this season and during his stints as OC with San Fran and Buffalo he always seems to have around a top 10 scoring offense. Bringing him in could help Baker and also help us by taking him away from Lamar and Baltimore

I hate the "proven coach" moniker but if we fire Kitchens we better bring in someone who has proven they know what they are doing.

(Mike McCarthy does not qualify.)

too late for Stefanski?

Dorsey would never admit DePo was right and make the call to Stefanski.

Further, I doubt Stefanski bother taking the call.

If Stefanski is bringing Kubiak with him, sure, I guess.

A snippet from a profile written on Kevin Stefanski...

In steps Stefanski, who was blocked by Zimmer from joining Shurmur in New York, had a three-game audition as play caller last season when DeFilippo was fired and nearly got the Cleveland Browns head coaching job in the offseason.

The dizzying developments would be stomach-churning for some coaches. But Stefanski refuses to ride the rollercoaster. If he was disappointed in Zimmer’s decision not to let him take a coordinator job with the Giants, he didn’t let on. If he was bitter about the Vikings choosing DeFilippo over him last offseason, you wouldn’t know it now.

And the Browns gig? The one that some in Vikings land believe was his before a last-minute turn to incumbent Freddie Kitchens? Stefanski’s only hint of a tell is a knowing chuckle when asked how close he thought he was to leading Baker Mayfield and Odell Beckham Jr.

“I’m glad I went through it and met that group and talked to them,” Stefanski said.

“Ultimately it was not the right fit. I really, truly have so moved past it that it’s hard to even go back and remember what I was thinking at the time. I’m glad I’ve done it, glad I had the opportunity to talk with them, but I really like my gig now. It’s a big one.

“The good news is I have some really good coaches that are helping me. I have some really good players on the offensive side of the ball.”


Instead we got (from the Seth Wickersham article)....

Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."

If Dorsey would even have final call a second time around.

Ugh....

IMO, the really crappy part about Kitchens (so far) failing so miserably is that last line.

Dorsey got what he wanted... and now here we are. I don't care what industry/market you work in... when decision makers that are in positions of power like Dorsey do this and get their way, it comes with the great weight of expectations. The NFL is a not a patient workplace.

The more I think about it, the more I hope Kitchens can somehow pull his head out of his butt over this offseason. It may help if he shows something down this meaningless December stretch.

Browns need to move on from both Dorsey and Kitchens, can both of them.

the Steelers did not resign Kevin Colbert.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/20...season-nfl-news

He will be available in the offseason, this our chance to get a REAL GM, a guy that actually knows WTH he is doing and will have a plan. A guy that actually knows how to draft and hire a good coach.

You want to build the stability of the Steelers organization, here is your chance right here. Pay Kevin Colbert then GTFO of his way and let him fix this mess.