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Play calling. In the time I have watched football (which is long) every play caller is questioned.
Oh absolutely. And I don't have a problem with "play calling" per say. Its more of WHEN and WHERE we are calling plays. if the 4-9 draw play works, hes a genius. If it doesn't, hes well...a schmuck lol. Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times. Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called. However, you also have to have the talent to call the plays he is calling. Long, slow developing double move routes, you need time no the line for them to generate. We don't have the talent on the line to do that. That's bad play calling. What has to be looked at IMO is: did the players and team perform to their potential?
This is the biggest key. And long story short, no. Baker has regressed as a player. Odell is lost in our offense. Higs cant see the field. Chubb has excelled, but cant get the ball when its crucial time in a game, and outside of Chubb, I could say that besides him on offense - not a single player has improved. However, unless you are behind the scenes everyday and are witness to how the team is prepared and how they respond to the coaches? You can not know. Actaully, I can. You see, Freddie keeps saying "we had our best practice this week all year" and then laid an egg. He keeps saying that they practice great, we have great prep work, but then we look like crap on gameday. So either he doenst know what a good practice looks like - or THIS is what he thinks is good work. Either way is concerning IMO. Who is out there that would be the right person? If I knew that, I would be getting a check from the Haslams  Honestly, I know River Boat Ron is the name right now everyone is talking about because hes fresh news - but I would want to see all the players available before screaming out names as my guy. I am not saying Fire Freddie today either. He needs to finish the season so we can get a full picture. I agree with that. But honestly, even if we WIN OUT, I think you need to take into account HOW we win out. Lets face it. EVERY win we have minus BALT, left us with more questions than answers. WE beat the Jets with a dud QB playing and half their Def out. We won by 20 but honestly it should have been a BLOWOUT We showed very bad closing skills against the Bills, and couldn't score. We should have demolished them as well the way the game was setup as well as Pitts game 1. It should have been 40-0 game. The score against MIA looks good on paper, yet we gave up a lot there for MIA to actually get back in the game. Just another EPISODE of this "team" having 0 resolve and almost crumbling in the face of adversity. ' For me, I let him finish the year, but hes gonzo. We
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Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times.
Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called. I am completely confused by this.... as I read this, you are saying that he has a decent playbook, with good plays in it... he just uses them at the wrong times in the wrong situations? Isn't that basically what playcalling is? Dialing up the right play at the right time that anticipates the right defense and exploits it for positive yardage? And yes, I agree that executing the play is as important as the play call itself but being a good playcaller is about keeping the defense off balance and exploiting its weaknesses.
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Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times.
Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called. I am completely confused by this.... as I read this, you are saying that he has a decent playbook, with good plays in it... he just uses them at the wrong times in the wrong situations? Isn't that basically what playcalling is? Dialing up the right play at the right time that anticipates the right defense and exploits it for positive yardage? And yes, I agree that executing the play is as important as the play call itself but being a good playcaller is about keeping the defense off balance and exploiting its weaknesses. To an extent, I mean obviously running a draw on 4th and 9 is not gonna work 99 out of 100 times. On 3rd and 3, I don't think the play matters as much as the execution of it. I think the playbook is good enough. I don't think our oline is good enough to execute our playbook. But I think Kitchens philosophy of throwing the ball anytime we are in a crucial situation is worse than out playbook and making the offense look worse than it is. Calling empty set on the 5 yard line is not keeping the def off balance. I think its ideas of what this offense should look like opposed to what this offense actually is, would be what im trying to say. This offense is a run first offense that needs to setup the pass off the run. He refuses to see or admit that, and wants Baker to the hero and throw the ball 50X a game.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? We have the 10th best run offense... Look for the problems elsewhere, for example in the QB OL stats https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol/2019We are ranked in 9th and 11th in LT and RT Adjusted Yards.
Last edited by rastanplan; 12/06/19 10:11 AM.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2. It sure would have been nice to run a couple times right behind Zeitler.
Edited for formatting.
Last edited by WSU Willie; 12/06/19 10:43 AM.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2. And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate. Mind boggling.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2. And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate. Mind boggling. Welp, Baker was stopped cold on a 4th and 1 the week before inside the Denver 5. Everybody screaming "how do you not give the ball to Chubb!" But yeah, I agree 100%, with eight tries, at least one has to be a sneak.
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. If I recall, there were a few pass to Odell, and most we pitched the ball I think 2 times for loss. I don't recall lining up and going up the gut but 1 time maybe?
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While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line? IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro. I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays. It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2. And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate. Mind boggling. Welp, Baker was stopped cold on a 4th and 1 the week before inside the Denver 5. Everybody screaming "how do you not give the ball to Chubb!" But yeah, I agree 100%, with eight tries, at least one has to be a sneak. After that PI call in the endzone on the pass to Beckham, we were on the half yard line. At that point, just fall into the endzone with Baker. We chose not to. Dumb.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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1st & Goal at BUF 1
(6:20 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to O.Beckham. PENALTY on BUF-J.Poyer, Defensive Pass Interference, 0 yards, enforced at BUF 1 - No Play.
1st & Goal at BUF 1
(6:20 - 1st) N.Chubb right tackle to BUF 2 for -1 yards (M.Milano; J.Poyer).
2nd & Goal at BUF 2
(5:32 - 1st) N.Chubb right guard to BUF 1 for 1 yard (L.Alexander, L.Alexander).
3rd & Goal at BUF 1
(4:51 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to O.Beckham. PENALTY on BUF-T.White, Defensive Pass Interference, 0 yards, enforced at BUF 1 - No Play.
1st & Goal at BUF 1
(4:45 - 1st) N.Chubb right guard to BUF 1 for no gain (J.Poyer; T.Edmunds).
2nd & Goal at BUF 1
(4:04 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short right to O.Beckham (T.White).
3rd & Goal at BUF 1
(4:00 - 1st) N.Chubb left guard to BUF 1 for no gain (J.Poyer).
4th & Goal at BUF 1
(3:18 - 1st) N.Chubb right tackle to BUF 3 for -2 yards (C.Liuget; M.Milano).
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Freddie is completely overwhelmed as a play caller. He has not figured out the most basic of strategies: What are your strengths? What are your opponents weaknesses? Take advantage of BOTH. This is what Belichick does. EVERY single game. Freddie just wants to throw the ball all over the field regardless. That it flat out ignorance. And the reason he will be fired at season's end. I'm OK with that. To add, he is NOT a mature leadership figure. This locker room needs that. You're not in college anymore Bubba. See ya.
After 55 years, I'm walking away from this dumpster fire. Good luck to everyone who continues to hang on. You'll need it.
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In light of this article about "disconnect".
Freddie is in big trouble.
This is the type of thing that Dorsey will be very in tune with.
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...ns-offense.html
If this bears out Freddie will be fired.
I have been suspicious of internal discord. It was one of the things that I had stated could result in Freddie getting fired. Even more so than the record.
If people were on the same page and the players appeared to be catching on improving. I felt that 8-8 or maybe 7-9 Freddie would probably survive.
If this article is accurate. Freddie doesn't have a chance.
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IMO, Freddie and Beckham are on very thin ice.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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If Dorsey needed that article to decide to fire Kitchens, he should follow him out the door.
Nothing in there was new. Yes, the offense gas sucked. OBJ has a (small) part in that, as he's dropped passes and seems to occasionally mix up routes.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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He doesn’t need any article to fire Kitchens, just watch the game today. Fire him at the half ! He’s not an NFL coach.
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Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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John Dorsey should just admit he made a mistake with Freddie. He took a shot with him because of last years success and it just didn't work out. He will get respect for saying that and can move on because let's face it, we need a new coaching staff. Period!!
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j/c
We've won four out of our last five games and all I see is this BS?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Red Zone production. Or lack of same. "FRedRight 88." Incredibly bad failure.
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Browns need to be 8-5 next year by this point in the season to have a reasonable chance at playoff spots in the AFC/AFC North.
Browns need to focus on winning 8 before they lose 5, 8 or more before they get to that 6th loss of the year.
If they can do that they would have a serious chance at a playoff berth, but any less isn't going to get it,
The AFC is just filled with too many good teams that also have game plans and the AFC South, East, and West, have just too many good teams to count on half the league to stink and try to make the playoffs at 9-7
It's not the 1980's, there isn't a 4 team division with two other 5 team divisions anymore, it's going to take a better winning percentage.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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j/c
We've won four out of our last five games and all I see is this BS? Why yes, yes you do. There is no good reason we shouldn’t be 5 for 5 and with the exception of the Bills, the other wins are against bottom dwellers, games that we should have won anyway. And we struggled to assert ourselves most of that time.
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The article has nothing to do with Dorsey from the standpoint of information.
The article was for fans. Information about internal strife.
Dorsey would be fully informed on his own.
My point is if it is true; his chances on surviving are slim.
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My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains.
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My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains. I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’.
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My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains. I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’. Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue. When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again.
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Romeo got 4 years.
No playoff appearances.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Honestly, this all boils down to Baker. If the organization is committed to him, they have to ask themselves if he's the best guy to coach him. If they believe he is, you stick with him. If they don't, you have to consider a move.
I think other factors will be --
1. Do the Haslams want to pay another coach that no longer works for the organization?
2. Will Dorsey be ready to give up on his guy after one year?
3. Who can they get? I've read Josh McDaniels would jump at the chance to come here and work with Baker. And Haslam loves him. And this looks like the Pats last hoorah.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains. I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’. Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue. When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again. I’d agree that the plug has at time been pulled early. But just because it may be early doesn’t make it the wrong thing to do. Because on the flip side you end up keeping Hue in to the next season and have to fire him halfway through. Look, I’m fine if folks want to come down on the side of continuity, but I’m really curious as to what they have seen that leads them to believe there will be improvements and we won’t be firing him by Week 8
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My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains. I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’. Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue. When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again. With the lack of professionalism permeating throughout the team's behavior from both the HC and players, I would not want to keep this staff in place for the sake of continuity. How did continuity work out for the Bengals and Marvin Lewis? Growing with a rookie HC and seeing progression from learned mistakes is one thing. I've seen nothing change as the year progressed. The team continually lack's discipline each week with on the field play. The misuse of talent on the team. Continually having questionable play calling. These are a few things I've noticed this year. The man remembered he had two of the most dynamic players in the backfield after not even utilizing them in the first have today. Last week, Chubb was dominating the first half of the Steelers game and he decided to ignore the ground game in the second half, contributing to the loss. This year, talent has won the games despite coaching. Each week we are unprepared and consistently do not execute. Had we had a proper HC, we would be pushing the Ravens for division and playoff runnings.
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This is no easy decision.
There are many factors at play.
Let's see what happens the last three games.
Continuity would be a good as has been pointed out. The article about "disconnect" and internal bickering if accurate could spell the end for Freddie though.
You can not succeed under those circumstances.
No matter where people want to place the blame. The fact is this team has underachieved. Good coaching starts with getting max performance from your players.
The Odell trade was a big deal. The effort is made to bring in a playmaker and the results are not there.
Freddie was given this opportunity because of his relationship with Baker and the teams performance under Freddie as OC.
If the disconnect is between Monken and Freddie; that is on Freddie. This offense with better talent has not produced.
Baker has been inconsistent. That has been part of it. However, there is more at to it than that.
An offense has to develop a playing personalty. By that I mean who are you? What is your identity? Balance, physical, run first, spread, play action, 12, 11 whatever. How are you going to attack? What is our strength?
Right now we have two backs that are premier players. We have two receivers who are premier players. But the talent is not used to full potential. Play calling? IMO it is more the design of the plays. The concepts, spacing, route trees, blocking design, the plays themselves.
If this falls on Freddie then there has to be a better alternative. Can Freddie develop versus a better candidate that we can get?
Freddie has to provide reasons for Dorsey to keep him.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,511 |
We've won four out of five... beat the steelers, Ravens, and Bengals in the same season, have a chance for winning record for the first time this decade... dude ain't getting fired....
He needs to get better discipline for his team on and off field..... work on chemistry of team... and work on play calling
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#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,818
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Perhaps it's time they let the analytic team pick the coach?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,859
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
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We've won four out of five... beat the steelers, Ravens, and Bengals in the same season, have a chance for winning record for the first time this decade... dude ain't getting fired....
He needs to get better discipline for his team on and off field..... work on chemistry of team... and work on play calling There are things that Kitchens needs to improve no doubt. But, I do not think he will get fired. This team needs some consistency thru the off season. Another change will lead to another disappointing season again next year. Make a decision and then stay the course. I think that is what Dorsey will do.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
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There has been plenty of leaking happening in Berea. I don't know what the hell Peter King is talking about.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,818
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,818 |
Maybe he was being sarcastic and should have said that in purple?
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kitchen's not worried about job
security.
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