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Yes, it's you breaking the rules and thinking you are above them. It is what it is....more personal attacks by you because you can't get people to say that your erroneous opinion is right.
Nice picture, isn't that the same type of thing that Attack got suspended for when he did it to you? 
I'm going to reply to your little tirade only once more Coach. I'm tired of adding to this trash pile in the pure football forum. It's petty and getting you nowhere. It also in no way,form or manner football related. So for the very last time...............
If I say you shot and killed a man,I did not call you a murderer. I simply stated the actions that you chose to take.
If you have an issue with that,why don't you take it to the Refs on this board? It is neither your job nor mine to police or reprimand fellow posters. It is theirs.
Why? Because I can pretty much garuntee you've already tried that method and it's gotten you nowhere.
If you say that I said something that I didn't,wheather I say you made a mistatement,a falicy or a lie,they all equate to the same thing.
Now if you don't like that explanation.maybe a Ref can give you a better one. But I'm pretty certain one already has.I already know your M.O. all too well. I will no longer be adding to your little tangent here Coach. If you insist on perpetuating trashing the Pure Football forum,that will be between you and those who run this board. I will no longer be a party to it.
Thank you and have a nice day!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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LOL, Pit playing the martyr yet again. Classic! He insults people by not only calling names, but using his little pictures (in something that got attack suspended for alluding to the same thing to Pit), then he says others are on a tirade. Typical Pit, he can't win a debate based on substance so he turns it personal and then plays the martyr when called on it. 
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LOL, Pit playing the martyr yet again. Classic! He insults people by not only calling names, but using his little pictures (in something that got attack suspended for alluding to the same thing to Pit), then he says others are on a tirade. Typical Pit, he can't win a debate based on substance so he turns it personal and then plays the martyr when called on it.
And you DON'T turn things personal?
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No,I don't blame RAC for having to work with a generaly sub par QB for the time being Oh really? Now thats a different twist than that psunami U were having about him not naming Frye (ANOTHER SUB-PAR QB) the starter in TC or preseason The problem is deeper than just Rac as I have stated..oh he may be part of it but he's only part of it... I'm in no way going to let the assistant coaches off the hook either..or the players..they're on the field they ARE THE ONES who perform.. Now it's not his
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Not in pure football, no I didn't. Oh, that's right your offended that I took exception to you making fun of a person's physical disabilites.
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Good Lord!!! You guys sound like an old married couple that cannot stand to be in the same room with each other! Get a divorce and get over each other already.
We come here to read about people's opinions on the Browns and football, not to read about your love spats and pissing matches. I dont give a hoot about what you think someone's agenda is and if they disagree with you. Agree to disagree and move on.
Signing Steinbach - $49.5 million
Signing Lewis - $5 million
Drafting Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn - millions more
Restoring the Browns to champions - priceless.
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hahahaha, word
Coach...on your initial post on the thread, you said you saw a team come out too jacked up. I agree, I somewhat misposted there when I said come out flat.
I guess more so, is the control of our emotions is more of my problem. Whether theyre flat (Pitt) or causing problems because theyre too up (Oak), theyre doing things due to emotion they shouldnt be.
Also, with the accountability. I'm speaking explicitly with playing time. Ted has been bad, and until this week (according to a fellow poster) he's been playing alot, and still was playing alot. Eric Wright, despite being consisently burned (i know he's a rookie and will be given some slack) is still getting a lot of minutes. McDonald could use some minutes, KWright could get minutes. Pool, despite blowing coverages still gets minutes. Dra, despite playing bad still gets alot of minutes.
That's most of my problem. We still have players screwing things up repeatedly that arent losing minutes. I know it's only 3 games in, but, I'm hoping to see these guys lose minutes if they continue to play poorly. I'm not so much complaining as I am saying I want to see this in the future
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Steve, the emotions do need to be controlled, but remember we are the third youngest team in the NFL playing alot of kids. They will learn to control their emotions.
Washington's minutes did decrease Sunday. In fact, he didn't even start. Wright, IMO, is a different story. You have to let him go through the growing pains. It's just like BQ, once you put him in you can't go back. The problem isn't just Wright, but Wright learning combined with Poole playing poorly and Bodden being injured.
I know it's frustrating, but we are getting there. If the team doesn't show marked improvement by the end of the season, then I may have a definitive answer on RAC.
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then came out flat the very next week to a team that appears quite inferior to Cincy.
You can keep saying it Pit, I didn't see us come out flat... I saw us make too many mental mistakes. I saw plenty of enthusiasm... and the Raiders might not have the offensive fire power of the Bengals, but they have a much better defense...
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Honestly DC,out of our first five games when objectively looking at our schedule, which stands out to you as appearing to be the most winnable?
The Raiders Pit.. but things aren't always as they appear.. I mean what if 2 of our first 5 games had been the Chargers and the Saints? Just because a game looks "winnable" when the schedule comes out, doesn't make it so... and it was still "winnable" we just didn't win it... we came close, right to the wire, we just didn't win it.....
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I'm not sure if you're saying we are the worst team in the NFL or not. But if so,we have a MAJOR case of "Jekkyl and Hyde syndrome".
We aren't the worst team.. we are, however, capable of losing to the worst team... we are also capable of playing competitively against playoff caliber teams... we are inconsistent.
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I know we exceeded expecatations in the Cincy game. But just the opposite case reared its ugly head in the Raiders game. Thay are an extremly beatable team. We had the momentum coming out of the Cincy game and simply came out flat on both sides of the ball.
They had the momentum too Pit... they were still winless (which is motivation by itself).. they were coming off a road game in which they took a team to the wire (a division team viewed as better than them, just like we did) only they LOST and felt they more or less got screwed in OT..... So, no we didn't come out flat Pit... we weren't flat... a couple first half goal line stands to force FGs after bad turnovers... a host of penalties that killed drives... I can counter with this every single time you say we were flat if you want me to... we were NOT flat.
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As I said,before this season ever started,most of us,and rightfully so,felt the most winnable game of the first five was the Raiders game.
Did you see the Chargers at 1-2 and looking awful and fighting with each other on the sidelines? Did you see the Saints winless after 3 games? The Bears at 1-2? The Packers undefeated? Just admit that whatever you thought about any team before the season started was, in large part, meaningless.
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And the win in Cincy only furthered that resolve because they had the motivation and momentum from beating a better team the week before.
That win only served to make us think we are better than we really are... everybody knew, or should have known, and in fact some people stated it, DA is capable of playing great or laying an egg... only time will tell... Everybody pretty much also knew that our run D would struggle... the only questions were "how much?"...
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No,I don't blame RAC for having to work with a generaly sub par QB for the time being. It's the mental break downs,consistant mistakes and lack of concentration on the part of this team that I feel he has to bare a great deal of the blame for however.
I completely agree and have stated that is the single biggest thing I'm looking for him to fix as the season goes on to maintain whatever confidence I have left in him... I can take DA throwing some stupid INTs... I can take our run defense not being all that effective against good running teams... what I can't stand is the false starts, the illegal formations, the delay of games... some of that is on the players, but if left uncorrected, eventually it falls on the coach.
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Exactly what is it that you point to as the reason for this persistant pattern then?
I'm chalking it up to youth at the moment.. some of the false starts tell me that, if anything, we are too amped, as opposed to too flat... the illegal formations I'll write off to the players still being new to this system and the formations and plays... As I said, I expect to see it get better.... and if it doesn't, ultimately it comes back to RAC.
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But overall,once again,in the grand scheme of things,our perception of that game are vastly different.
And I'm perfectly OK with that. 
yebat' Putin
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Oh really?
Now thats a different twist than that psunami U were having about him not naming Frye (ANOTHER SUB-PAR QB) the starter in TC or preseason
They are both sub par QB's. My point,which you obviously have, and I would guess in all likelihood still disagree with,is that a coach needs to choose the lesser of the two evils and get on with business. I don't believe you'll find where I've ever stated that either of these two QB's were even "average NFL starters". My point all along was that we were installing a new O system with a very youthfull team overall. Those young players needed to be more focused on implementing that new system,than what I percieved to be little more than a very distractive sideshow while trying to accomplish instaling that system.
If you disagree with that,I don't have a problem with it. But it's not a "silly or pointless" thing to suggest. I believe you'll find many who see it your way and many who see it mine on that issue. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong in our opinions. Nor does it make either opinion any more valid than the other.
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The problem is deeper than just Rac as I have stated..oh he may be part of it but he's only part of it...
I'm in no way going to let the assistant coaches off the hook either.
Well,I don't quite see the term "letting them off the hook" as the proper term for it,but let me pose this to you. If your head coach is a first time head coach,can you honestly expect him to learn,flourish and fullfill his role as your head coach,while mentoring people that are also in the learning phase of their perspective jobs? Can you expect a first time head coach to flourish without haveing experienced ownership or a very experienced GM in place? Somebody has to have the qualifications and background with a successfull track record in the pecking order somewhere. Be that the owner,the GM or the head coach.
I mean Chud was an OC for what? Eight games as an OC in a purely interum basis? His primary job has been a TE coach. So he is new to the position. Who is it in our organisation is it that he can learn from? Where is the voice of experience that young coaches on their way up the ladder need to help groom them into successfull coaches in their new and perspective positions?
I do feel you are correct that each coach is accountable for their own jobs. But do we have any experience within this organisation that indicates an environment of success and learning for these guys?
How about in our ownership? While our owner wishes to bring success to the Browns,he does not have a long and storied history in the sport.
How about our GM? His claim to fame has been as a talent evaluater. I think he's a pretty good one at that. But he's a relative new comer to making day to day operational decisions for an NFL team. He has never been an NFL GM before. So I think he pretty well has his hands full.
How about our head coach? Once again,he is realitively new to being a head coach. Do you feel his vast experience makes it reasonable to expect that he can guide and direct these assistants in developing and honing their skill for success?
I do hold the OC and DC accountable. But I can also see that there is a very lacking wealth of NFL experience dealing with these matters and mentoring coaches who have been elevated into their perspective positions. They're basicly winging it without a lot of experience behind them to help them mature and grow.
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.or the players..they're on the field they ARE THE ONES who perform..
I agree with you there as well. But you are bringing in raw rookie talent without an "established GM" or an "established head coach" or an "established owner". All of these key parts from the owner,to the GM to the head coach are fairly new at their jobs in the grand scheme of things.
And I think when looking at the big picture,that has become very problematic.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Good Lord!!! You guys sound like an old married couple that cannot stand to be in the same room with each other! Get a divorce and get over each other already.
We come here to read about people's opinions on the Browns and football, not to read about your love spats and pissing matches. I dont give a hoot about what you think someone's agenda is and if they disagree with you. Agree to disagree and move on.
Just in case you missed it.......................................
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I'm going to reply to your little tirade only once more Coach. I'm tired of adding to this trash pile in the pure football forum. It's petty and getting you nowhere. It also in no way,form or manner football related. So for the very last time...............
There it is. You're a day late and a dollar short. You're more than welcome to spread your wisdom to those continuing in this manner. But as I've stated,I'm already done with it.
So peddle it on another corner. This one's taken.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Did you see the Chargers at 1-2 and looking awful and fighting with each other on the sidelines?
When you replace Marty with Norv Turner and your entire coaching staff grabs their gear and runs? Yes,I saw that as a distinct possiblity. I wouldn't have made it a prediction,but saw it as quite possible.
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Did you see the Saints winless after 3 games?
Nope! Sure didn't!
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The Bears at 1-2?
After watching their QB position degrading at the end of last year,once again,I saw this as a possibility.
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The Packers undefeated?
Oh HELL NO!
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Just admit that whatever you thought about any team before the season started was, in large part, meaningless.
No,I won't go quite that far,but there have been some that have thrown me a major curve ball. But I did figure the Raiders would be 0-2 when we played them in week three. However,in the same breath,I thought we would be 0-2 as well. I'd say my batting average is about .500. Which is exactly what my record is in Hoopers Pick Um's league using the point spread.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Since you brought up Chud...it's not playcalling I'm talking about..these guys who are jumping offsides or making stupid mistakes have to be disciplined (discipline doesn't always mean sitting a guy down) by their position coaches also.
Grantham ..this is a guy I was never enamoured with..sure he's fiery but his scheme is suspect, his players UNDISCIPLINED..not staying in their gaps..no tackling fundamentals..
Again some of it is Rac , and some isn't..
Crap , it doesn't matter how much experience those guys have , some things ARE BASIC in football that EVERYONE knows..blocking tackling, staying onsides are basics Pit..no coach has to be 10- 15 years experienced to get those things down.
You're dealing with a young team who needs to have those things EMPHASIZED in every practice...
How about our GM? His claim to fame has been as a talent evaluater. I think he's a pretty good one at that. But he's a relative new comer to making day to day operational decisions for an NFL team. He has never been an NFL GM before. So I think he pretty well has his hands full.
Yeah he's had growing pains too..but while he's made mistakes, he's done a better job of being proactive and getting top FA's in here..so I can't harp on him too much....he knows he's got to get Rac some better talent on defense, and IMO...some guys HAVE GOT TO BE relegated to backups..
For instance our Dline isn't athletic at all..NEEDS UPGRADES...our LB's aren't POWERFUL and fast enough to plug holes and punish ball carriers in the hole..
Secondary needs to grow and get a general back there..once those things are fixed the D will improve...so I have to see what Phil does next offseason.
Take it to the bank our focus will be on defense not offense...
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I wasn't necessarily meaning you and him spatting over who called who a liar and who should or should not be suspended. You two (and several others) go at it all the time and end up changing the context of the thread to your tired old points. It just gets old after a while. With that being said, I hope that you truly do move on so that everyone else can too.
Signing Steinbach - $49.5 million
Signing Lewis - $5 million
Drafting Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn - millions more
Restoring the Browns to champions - priceless.
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No,I won't go quite that far,but there have been some that have thrown me a major curve ball. But I did figure the Raiders would be 0-2 when we played them in week three. However,in the same breath,I thought we would be 0-2 as well. I'd say my batting average is about .500. Which is exactly what my record is in Hoopers Pick Um's league using the point spread.
Fair enough... the Raiders were and still would be, one of the more winnable games on our schedule.. but unless something bizarre happens, the Raiders are going to win more than 2 games this year... If I was predicting, I might bet 6 or 7... they aren't the same pushover with Aaron Brooks getting sacked 6 times a game that they were last year.
yebat' Putin
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You guys realize when you have a young inexperienced team they will be inconsistant..they will win games they should lose and lose some they should win..
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I do... tell HIM that. I've been saying all along that our improvement is not going to be linear.... we are not going to be better each week than the week before, there will be highs and lows, sometimes unexplainable...
yebat' Putin
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Told him a lot of things..he can't see beyond Rac being the IMMEDIATE problem. 
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Since you brought up Chud...it's not playcalling I'm talking about..these guys who are jumping offsides or making stupid mistakes have to be disciplined (discipline doesn't always mean sitting a guy down) by their position coaches also.
I was just eluding to the fact that as with rookie players,so goes it with rookie head coaches,OC's,DC's etc..... I do believe that both players and coaches need the proper guidence and experence above and or around them. I mean we have one rookie on the OL,one rookie in the secondary,etc.... They in turn have more experienced players around them. I don't see that anywhere beyond the playing field where we can say that.
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Grantham ..this is a guy I was never enamoured with..sure he's fiery but his scheme is suspect, his players UNDISCIPLINED..not staying in their gaps..no tackling fundamentals..
I would tend to agree with that. I haven't seen any improvement in this department what so ever. While we haven't made major upgrades to the DL,overall our D talent has gotten somewhat better and he has been here from day 1 in this regime. Yet I've seen no improvement at all from his unit even in the fundamental aspect of the game.
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Again some of it is Rac , and some isn't..
I feel it's as much about environment than any one link in the chain. ie... We don't have anybody in the ownership level,GM level or head coaching level that has been a "proven winner" in the NFL at their perspective positions. We often talk about a "solid foundation" in regards to players,but we seem not to feel the same need beyond that. I don't see an "anchor" here that we can tie the boat to.
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Crap , it doesn't matter how much experience those guys have , some things ARE BASIC in football that EVERYONE knows..blocking tackling, staying onsides are basics Pit..no coach has to be 10- 15 years experienced to get those things down.
I'm not saying your "coach" has to. But I do not think in combination,that is made up from relatively inexperienced owner,an inexperienced GM and an inexperienced head coach,when put together as a team,makes for a successfull environment.
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You're dealing with a young team who needs to have those things EMPHASIZED in every practice...
That would be a rather tough point to argue. Hell,.I won't even tackle that one! But I would strongly suggest that such a young group of talent is cause for an even more urgent need for proven success from one of our leaders from above. When you combine young,inexperienced players with young and inexperienced staff,where does your "experience come from"? I mean who is the "example" of proven leadership for this young group to follow at any level above veteran players?
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Yeah he's had growing pains too..but while he's made mistakes, he's done a better job of being proactive and getting top FA's in here..so I can't harp on him too much....
Once again we do agree. Without coming to a team with experienced ownership as a first time GM,I feel we have seen a marked improvement in talent since his time here, a strong ability to handle the salary cap and somehow attracting quality FA's that I hadn't seen here before his arrival.
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he knows he's got to get Rac some better talent on defense, and IMO...some guys HAVE GOT TO BE relegated to backups..
For instance our Dline isn't athletic at all..NEEDS UPGRADES...our LB's aren't POWERFUL and fast enough to plug holes and punish ball carriers in the hole..
Secondary needs to grow and get a general back there..once those things are fixed the D will improve...so I have to see what Phil does next offseason.
Take it to the bank our focus will be on defense not offense...
I'd say you're right. If I had to try to pinpoint the biggest need to be addressed,IMO it would be the DL.And a powerfull Backer to help stuff the run would be a nice upgrade to Andre Davis. I mean he would make quality depth,but I can see a FA or high draft pick filling that role. Phil has seemed to,from my perspective,to this point,seen glaring weaknesses and made major moves to address such glaring weaknesses. And looking around,I would say these would be the major areas next on his list.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Told him a lot of things..he can't see beyond Rac being the IMMEDIATE problem.
No,what I see ATTACK is that we don't have ANY experience to any degree at the ownership level,GM level or head coaching level.
We have a corperate executive as an owner. But he is willing to write checks and bring in whatever it takes to make us a winner. But as far as a storied franchise owner? No,he does not fit that bill.
At GM,we have a talent evaluater who was elivated to a GM status but no record of sccess at that level. We both seem to agree that he has done a good job given those circumstances,but he is a work in progress. It's looking quite promising,but not a complete work of art thus far.
And we see a DC who was elivated to head coach. Once again,no proven leadership success at his current position.
Now slice it any way you like,somewhere in this organisation we need "the voice of experience". A proven winner. Now in any given scenario across the NFL,you usually have one or more of those key ingrediants in place. But here? The cupboards are bare.
How many NFL organisations have been successfull when you combine an owner with five years experience and a GM and head coach with less than three years experience at their perspective positions?
If you do the math,there is less than 10 years "combined experience" between the owner,the GM and the head coach at their current positions.
Do we have an owner who has a proven track record of success or long term experience as an NFL owner? No we don't.
Do we have an established NFL GM with a long term success record as a GM? No we don't.
Do we have a proven NFL winning head coach? No we don't.
I think when and if you look around this league,you'll find that it's extremly rare,if at all,that this resembles a formula for breeding success. But you go ahead and keep advocating that formula all you like.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Just clicking,,
Let's see,, New Orleans,, good team last season. Either they had lots of talent that was hidden by previous coaches or most of them played over thier heads... at least that's how it looks now that they are 0-3.
Why do I bring this up? Many folks last season thought,, hey, look at NO... they got the QB that many Browns fans were clamoring for,, we essentially traded centers and they got some rookie Oline help also. Then they picked up Reggie Bush and some unknown WR and BAM, they were off to the races. Why can't we do that...
Well, we did! Kinda anyway. When Butch Davis was hired, he brought a winning attitude with him. He took a team that hadn't done anything and made it respectable...
And guess what, on here (well, actually it was over at the main Browns site) SOME fans were talking about how bad a coach Davis was...
Then the next year, he went out, spent money like a drunken sailor and got some real good talent in here and danged if we didn't make the playoffs,,, WOW.. Talk about excitment in this town.. Amazing,,
But he over spent,, had to dismantle the team and guess what,, by the middle of his third season, he was gone and the team was a MESS.
That's what happens when you try to rush things.. When you try to take short cuts, these good times generally don't last. Some do of course, but they are exceptions to the rule,, not the rule.
I really hope I'm right about this, but I think that Savage has a plan.. RAC is part of that plan. Injuries and some guys that didn't pan out well enough may have slowed that plan, but didn't kill it.
So to me, Changing horses in the middle of rebuilding sets us up for more of the Butch Davis type moves... Frankly, that's just stupid!
Instead of building for today, why not build a dynasty! Seems to me that while you may get yelled at by fans more, in the end, you will be in the HALL OF FAME..
It just makes sense to me to stay the course! Let it play out.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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No,what I see ATTACK is that we don't have ANY experience to any degree at the ownership level,GM level or head coaching level.
Everyone sees that..and with anything that is FIRST TIME..U have growing pains..correct?
At GM,we have a talent evaluater who was elivated to a GM status but no record of sccess at that level.
He comes from a successful organization ..and was involved in shaping that team..Lerner/Collins couldn't...I repeat couldn't get the top two guys they wanted..
And we see a DC who was elivated to head coach.
He was elevated because he was highly thought of being the DC in NE..another successful organization...it was time to give him a shot plus I don't need to bring the aspect of bypassing a minority coach..
How many NFL organisations have been successfull when you combine an owner with five years experience and a GM and head coach with less than three years experience at their perspective positions?
I'll put this in a nutshell for you..ALL the successful organizations have had their guys in place for some time before they enjoyed success..the same approach is being used here.
get guys from successful teams in here, let them work together and build a winning team.
Thats the plan..now is everyone supposed to buy it if it's not working up to par yet?
No..but if you keep switching out GM/HC's, you'll never be successful either.
Year 2 after total teardown in year 1...hmmm..I'm not jumping off any bridges ..
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get guys from successful teams in here, let them work together and build a winning team.
See, you say stuff like that, and before you know it someone calls you a liar (name calling and hasn't been given a time out yet I might add),,, Be careful telling the truth that some don't want to hear.. You will be labeled!
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Before I get slapped with a unsportsmenlike penalty... anyone who thinks they're bad enough to call me a liar is going to get closelined So ....they can bring it...  I DON'T care what people want or don't want to hear ..I always have said it doesn't matter to me who agrees and who doesn't..even if I'm wrong I'm going to voice my thoughts..
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Before I get slapped with a unsportsmenlike penalty...
Now that's funny man! I like it
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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See, you say stuff like that, and before you know it someone calls you a liar (name calling and hasn't been given a time out yet I might add),,, Be careful telling the truth that some don't want to hear.. You will be labeled!
No Damon,when you say that I said something that I didn't,you told a lie.
It's that simple. If you don't like that,take it to the Refs and quit crying about it.
It's quite unbecoming of you. Plain and simple.
ATTACK is not accusing me of saying something that I did not say. When and if he does,I'll let him know,just like I did you. This is the Pure Football Forum. Please keep that in mind.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Everyone sees that..and with anything that is FIRST TIME..U have growing pains..correct?
Correct. I don't have an issue with the fact there will be growing pains.
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He comes from a successful organization ..and was involved in shaping that team..Lerner/Collins couldn't...I repeat couldn't get the top two guys they wanted..
Phil has gotten top FA's the likes of which we have never seen since our return. Seems he has the cap situation under control and addresses our needs in the draft as well.
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He was elevated because he was highly thought of being the DC in NE..another successful organization...it was time to give him a shot plus I don't need to bring the aspect of bypassing a minority coach..
No,I understand the aspect that you do not wish to bring up. I think where we don't see eye to eye is on the very things you brought up yesterday. Poor tackling,needless penalties and pretty much "basic football fundmentals" that simply are not being instilled in our players.
IMO,those aren't "growing pains". Now if these problems were caused in large part by our rookie players,I believe that would be "growing pains". But when those problems are being seen on the part of your second year players,third year players and FA's,I believe the problem runs much deeper than that.
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I'll put this in a nutshell for you..ALL the successful organizations have had their guys in place for some time before they enjoyed success..the same approach is being used here.
So it is your assertion that you can have vast inexperience at the ownership level,the GM level AND the head coaching level ALL at the same time? You are suggesting "that is how organisations do it"? I don't believe that's accurate what so ever. Somewhere,at one of those levels,there has been stability and proven success to anchor an organisation. Yes,you can have a long standing ownership and bring in a rookie head coach. Because there is experience at the ownership level. But are you trying to suggest that you can show me where all three of those position have had less that 10 years experience combined and that has "lead to success"?
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get guys from successful teams in here, let them work together and build a winning team.
Thats the plan..now is everyone supposed to buy it if it's not working up to par yet?
Working up to par? Just yesterday you pointed out basic,fundamental football skills that after two years plus aren't being seen. Basic tackling techniques,basic blocking techniques,mental breakdowns that are leading to stupid penalties and generaly shooting ourselves in the foot.
I believe you either have the ability to put a team on the field that has been given the coaching to accomplish VERY "basic fundamentals",or you don't. You can either teach those basic things to your players and get that out of them,or you can't.
Playing "up to par" is one thing,basic fundamentals is quite another
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No..but if you keep switching out GM/HC's, you'll never be successful either.
Year 2 after total teardown in year 1...hmmm..I'm not jumping off any bridges ..
Well,you pointed out some very basic things that we simply haven't accomplished. Nothing fancy,just basic fundamentals. If you can't even do that,I don't see getting the full potential out of your talent,even with an all pro line up. I guess somehow you do.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Before I get slapped with a unsportsmenlike penalty... anyone who thinks they're bad enough to call me a liar is going to get closelined
So ....they can bring it...
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think where we don't see eye to eye is on the very things you brought up yesterday. Poor tackling,needless penalties and pretty much "basic football fundmentals" that simply are not being instilled in our players.
I never said those things were growing pains..I said the inconsistancies we see(win a game we should lose vise versa) are the frowing [pains.
I said those FUNDAMENTAL things don't require coaching experience of 10+ years..
Tackling guys and wrapping up is something you're taught on the HS level, and that translates to the college level.
In the pros U get paid for busting someone's chops..so something is lacking in the drills OR THEY NEED TO ACTUALLY DO SOME FREAKING DRILLS in practice...
Now here's something I haven't heard..they aren't making these stupid mistakes in practice(are they? ) ..it seems to happen game day...didn't happen against the Bengals..so are they too emotional at first and can't settle down?
The poor tackling is something that Rac shouldn't tolerate..if guys can't tackle or stay in their gaps get their butts outta there.
The attitude/intensity problem is mainly on the offense, which came stumbling out of the gate with penalties, a confusion timeout, and a fumble all on the first possession. RAC also blamed the blocked kick on a lack of intensity.
From his remarks it seems his problem with the defense is mainly the lack of being disciplined in getting in the correct alignment, which is fixable.
He didn't say the problem was confusion, he said lack of discipline, which indicates the players knew their assignments but decided to free-lance.
So it is your assertion that you can have vast inexperience at the ownership level,the GM level AND the head coaching level ALL at the same time? You are suggesting "that is how organisations do it"?
Did I say that? NO..I said the successful teams had their guys in place for a while...so even those guys like Parcells/Bellyache/Cowher,etc had to start SOMEWHERE and were green..but they matured...
I said the Browns want to do this..take these guys from different parts, build with them.
Working up to par? Just yesterday you pointed out basic,fundamental football skills that after two years plus aren't being seen. Basic tackling techniques,basic blocking techniques,mental breakdowns that are leading to stupid penalties and generaly shooting ourselves in the foot.
The blocking is better..the Oline I feel will get it's kinks worked out..
Tackling and hitting is technique and ATTITUDE...I said we don't have a enforcer on defense..
So no it's not on par in aspects where it should be.
But again thats not to just put all the blame at Rac or Opie...since he's ticked off this week , well I'd take it out on EVERYBODY..players/coaches..the whole lot of em..
But again I say if you just blow it up again after just 3 years you aren't going to see whether it was going to work..at this point Rac hasn't lost the team..the team is just enept right now..push these guys MAKE THEM EARN THEIR LOT..U'll see a different team..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/26/07 12:29 PM.
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I said those FUNDAMENTAL things don't require coaching experience of 10+ years..
See,here we agree again.
But what I do believe is that a person has the qualities to coach a team to get these fundamentals out of his team on a consistant basis,or he doesn't. And even if you keep him as your coach for those 10+ years,if he can't seem to get his players to perform the fundamentals of the game now,he won't be able to do it then. Because as you've indicated,they are very basic coaching ingrediants. Not complex scheming,game planning or adjustments.
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Tackling guys and wrapping up is something you're taught on the HS level, and that translates to the college level.
In the pros U get paid for busting someone's chops..
So are you saying that we just consistantly draft and sign FA's that "don't know how to tackle"? I mean if they were taught that in high school and in college,and performed well enough to make the pros,did they just "forget how"?
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so something is lacking in the drills OR THEY NEED TO ACTUALLY DO SOME FREAKING DRILLS in practice...
And if they are suddenly underachieving,not performing the fundamentals and things that got them to the pro level to begin with,where does the resposibilty for that ulimately belong?
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Now here's something I haven't heard..they aren't making these stupid mistakes in practice(are they? ) ..it seems to happen game day...didn't happen against the Bengals..so are they too emotional at first and can't settle down?
All I can say is that something is not being done that nets the results to show sound fundamentals on game day. I do know that in practice,you play against members of your own team week in and week out. There is a familiarity there with no crowd or game day pressure. But in respect to the Bengal game,on the D side of the ball,we didn't play any better than in the other two games at all IMO
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The poor tackling is something that Rac shouldn't tolerate..if guys can't tackle or stay in their gaps get their butts outta there.
I agree that he shouldn't. But after two plus years I can't see where he has stepped in and done anything that has netted better results in that department,have you? Which is why I have so much concern here. It's not about "hating anybody".
But you've said it yourself,it doesn't take a coach with vast experience to teach and garner results on the "basic fundamentals" of football. If these things are sorely lacking,there are even more things that are far more complex as a head coach he must deal with as well.
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The attitude/intensity problem is mainly on the offense, which came stumbling out of the gate with penalties, a confusion timeout, and a fumble all on the first possession. RAC also blamed the blocked kick on a lack of intensity.
If all it takes is one blocked kick to create a situation that causes your team to lose its intensity,you don't see something extremly wrong with that picture or the fact that your coach is trying to blame the fact that his team loses its intensity on a single play?
I know we see things somewhat differently. I mean I believe we see many of the same problems,it just seems that we view the root of those problems in a much different light.
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From his remarks it seems his problem with the defense is mainly the lack of being disciplined in getting in the correct alignment, which is fixable.
He didn't say the problem was confusion, he said lack of discipline, which indicates the players knew their assignments but decided to free-lance.
But our D hasn't really changed from last year very much and those same problems existed then. How long would you suggest it takes a coach to "fix" a fixable problem that he can obviously see?
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So it is your assertion that you can have vast inexperience at the ownership level,the GM level AND the head coaching level ALL at the same time? You are suggesting "that is how organisations do it"?
Did I say that? NO..I said the successful teams had their guys in place for a while...so even those guys like Parcells/Bellyache/Cowher,etc had to start SOMEWHERE and were green..but they matured...
I said the Browns want to do this..take these guys from different parts, build with them.
Well the fact remains that we have a great deal of innexperience in all three of these positions at the same time. I can see where the Rooney family with a lineage of NFL tradition has the experience there to get away with getting an "innexperienced" coach and letting him grow. There is a wealth of experience within the ownership.
I can see how a very experienced GM could work with an expansion owner and a rookie head coach because you have a vast wealth of experience at GM.
But either you believe having innexperience at all three levels is a formula for success or you don't. But you are right,you haven't said to this point wheather you do or not. I truely wish you would commit to your belief on that point one way or another.
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The blocking is better..the Oline I feel will get it's kinks worked out..
With the quality of talent we've brought in and the veteran experience on that OL,I don't really see how it could help but get better. At least in some areas.
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Tackling and hitting is technique and ATTITUDE...I said we don't have a enforcer on defense..
So no it's not on par in aspects where it should be.
But again thats not to just put all the blame at Rac
I'm not saying "all the blame" goes on RAC. But if you look at all of the points we are discussing here,I'd say a good bit of it does. Fundamentals in your players is a matter of coaching. And the head coach is the one responsible for having this team ready to play.
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or Opie...
No,he is responsible for bringing the talent in here,not teaching them or coaching them. And I believe he is bringing in the talent.
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since he's ticked off this week , well I'd take it out on EVERYBODY..players/coaches..the whole lot of em..
Well,since these players obviously have the ability to play at a high level (at least on a fundamental level),I would have to lay more of the blame on the person responsible for getting them to play to the level they are capable of. Which would at the very least be with dicipline and fundamentals. These players wouldn't even be playing at the pro level if they hadn't shown these abilities in the past.
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But again I say if you just blow it up again after just 3 years you aren't going to see whether it was going to work..at this point Rac hasn't lost the team..the team is just enept right now..push these guys MAKE THEM EARN THEIR LOT..U'll see a different team..
I don't think "blowing it up" is necassary to simply get someone in here that can at the very least get these guys to play fundamental football and instill better dicipline. I believe a coach either has that ability or he doesn't. You seem to feel differently and that's fine.
But if that ability is here in RAC,I sure haven't seen it and it appears you haven't seen it either. We just disagree on who's responsibility it is to make that happen. I believe it is the head coaches responsibility to step in and MAKE that happen. you seem to disagree. Which is fine IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But what I do believe is that a person has the qualities to coach a team to get these fundamentals out of his team on a consistant basis,or he doesn't. And even if you keep him as your coach for those 10+ years,if he can't seem to get his players to perform the fundamentals of the game now,he won't be able to do it then.
IT'S this...either it's the coach or the players..
If it's the players..well we know how to fix that..they pay the price in practice ..
Now I don't begin to know how hands on Rac is with his units in practice..
I know last year they ran gasers when they jumped offside or if the defense did something stupid..
So are you saying that we just consistantly draft and sign FA's that "don't know how to tackle"? I mean if they were taught that in high school and in college,and performed well enough to make the pros,did they just "forget how"?
Why U stoop to that level to ask that?
Guys don't forget to tackle..they are IMO soft..not a fiery bunch..and we can pick out all but a few who have any sort of intensity..
Of course one player who's always out of position is Davis..and I've said this WAY TOO MANY TIMES..
Replace him with a HIGH MOTOR intense MLB and this defense will change instantly..if your MLB who is the QB of the defense is out of position , lacks fire, has little instincts (more people are noticing his missed tackles) U have a huge problem.
I agree that he shouldn't. But after two plus years I can't see where he has stepped in and done anything that has netted better results in that department,have you? Which is why I have so much concern here. It's not about "hating anybody".
Lets see this week..since the defense is his puppy we'll see..
I will forgo a lot of my thoughts because I personally don't accept poor tackling and guys being undisciplined even if the talent isn't all there.
If all it takes is one blocked kick to create a situation that causes your team to lose its intensity
Stop...the lack of intensity came from the TO called before the first kick.
He was saying that they lined up for the second kick and were lax..
They were, they should have blocked the same way as before..WITH INTENSITY..they slacked up and LET the Raiders cave in the left side.
So when they get lax in that situation who's to blame?
Not the coach, the players are..no reason why they shouldn't be READY and able to block, no matter how many people the Raiders put in the box on one side..
They know whats coming...they got careless..that finger points to them ..
This is what I'm saying ..I can't lay all the blame at Rac's feet..somewhere somethings not being done..now if the assistants are slacking , we won't know it till one is gone..
If Rac needs to drop the hammer down then he better do it..
Remember I never implied he is faultless..I said I can't lay everything at him..
There's a bunch of people that are in this mess and the players are also accountable.
Now if he's having those things done in practice(and I cannot believe it's not being done) and it's not translating to game day something else is wrong and then you have to point to the players..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/26/07 03:09 PM.
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Well we obviously agree on Andre! But I believe that players who are starters in the NFL have been coached in a manner from high school and through college,to have fire,intensity and dicipline. I believe they have proven these attributes are within them. The percentage of high school athletes who play at the college level isn't very high. At least not at the major confrence level. And once again,the percentage of college players drafted to the pros is even smaller. VERY slim as a matter of fact! All of these athletes have shown fire,intensity and dicipline to ever get to the pro level. All throughout high school they've shown it in order to get scholarships. And all throughout college they've shown it. Or they would never have been drafted in the NFL. The only difference is,now for some reason,these qualities that got them to this level in the first place,seems to have mysteriously escaped them. I simply find that very flawed logic. It is my belief that the people who coached these players knew how to bring the best out in these athletes. They knew how to get the fire,intensity and instill the proper dicipline in these players. I'm sure we are not quite on the same page in our line of thinking here. To some degree we are,but in others we are not. But I do understand your feelings on the matter and I believe you understand mine as well. So at this juncture I believe we'll just have to agree on the points we see the same and agree to disagree on the others. I do believe the players aren't playing to the level they're capable of. More times than not it is simply about basic fundamentals of the game. But it's not like they don't have those "basic" abilities,because they've been showing them for years in order to get to where they are today. We just have a different line of thinking in regards to why we're not seeing it now. JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Just thought I take this chance to talk to myself . For an explanation Attack , ask Damon. He will give you the truth on that statement. First off , I'm not going to get into a pissing match with PitDawg on this. That's like chasing your tail. All of on here want a winner, the diffrence is some are willing to wait and see this thing out. Others want it now. Those that want to see it out are not blind to the talent deficencies, the coachs short commings, or the limited experience of our FO. We , also are not blind to the fact that we have been in this defense for 2years and 3 games, not three years as some like to post. Actually only 6 of the defensive starters have been in this defense for the first two years. Roye, Washington, Davis, Bodden, Jones, and Pool. 5 of the defensive starters have been in this defense for one year or less. Peek,Wimbley,Wright,Jackson, and Smith Peek, Wright, and Smith, are in thir first year of this defense. Now should we expect some inconsistancy there ? I think so. So why don't we take chances in this defense? I would think you have to learn how to play the base before you can throw in wrinkles. I would think you have to have the line to do their job, before anyone behind them can do their's correctly. Let's start with the NT, and two DE positions. Their job particularly the NT, is to eat up space, you have three guys attacking five, so two of those guys have to eat up two blockers or atleast the NT has to.This isn't happening because we don't have a NT that can do the job. Teds past his prime, and the rest are average. Our DEs are, Roye not sure if he's really suited for the 3-4, at least in his end of career years, and Smith, in his first year with the team. Our LBs are Wimbly, in his 2nd year with the team still learning a new position and defense. Jackson, 2nd year with the team and same issues. Davis , a vet that is average. Peek, first year with the team. The big problem with this group is , Peek and Wimbley, provide the pass rush, however they get pushed way outside sometimes leavin a gaping hole for the runner. On passes they are usally picked up because the line can't do their job, so theres always a free man there to cover them. DQ and davis never have the protection they are supposed to get so they are always trying to move into position to make tackles with someone blocking them. Because of the lack of linemen doing their job, and the LBs unable to do theirs, the DBs have to hold onto their protections longer,and they bite on fakes to help make up for the lack of a true run defense End result what do you have ? The Cleveland Browns D. Now we can blame RAC for all this, but thats like blaming him for all the sacks last year. We all knew our line sucked and until that got fixed it wasn't going to change. The line was fixed and we now have the makings of an offense that could grow into a very good offense. Firing RAC isn't going to change anything about this defense. The only thing that will change it is if one of the backup NTs steps up, or a NT falls into our lap. If theres a gear broken in your watch, you can wind it and wind it all you want , but it still won't tell you the time. You know Pit, if Marty could bring the fountain of youth with him and take Ted back about 10 or 15 years I would believe he could make this defense better. Other than that , it aint gonna happen. Its all on savage now, he's the one that has to find a D-Line, because I believe that's the last missing piece. Football is won and lost at the line of scrimmage, theres no side stepping that, Our biggst problem when Savage and RAC stepped in was those were the weakest part of our team. To compound matters, we had very few playmakers on this team. So how do you think they can fix everything in three drafts ? The easy way to passify the fans would be fire RAC, they are a really short sighted group, fire the coach and convince them it's for the betterment of the team, then when they struggle in the first year you can say , We didn't expect it to happen overnight, next year is the year. At least they get another free year to add pieces without having to listen to the complaints. The hard way is to let him finish the process, then if he can't do it, make your move. Yeah you listen to the fans complain, but you build a long standing unit that never has to look back and say, gee did we overreact ? JMHO
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Well when you can't even see fundamentals being executed on the field,you'll be waiting untill hell freezes over,so have at it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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All of on here want a winner, the diffrence is some are willing to wait and see this thing out. Others want it now.
Yea and I want to see my Great Grand Children grow up also but the fact is I probably don't have the time to do that.
As far as the Browns go I have been waiting and waiting for so long I'm begining to wonder if it will happen in my life time. It's strange how other team have won Super Bowl Championships in my life time (some out of the blue) but us Browns fans are supposed to sit back and take losing in stride.
I hear we should be patient all the time, well sometime in our lives we will have no time for patience. I have seen to many young people want everything right now, wealth, respect, but they have no patience to earn it. So many feel it should be handed to them.
If anyone has been patient it is the fans that are in the area of 50 years old. We are still waiting. How many of you young folks are willing to wait untill you are 50, 60, or 70 years old?
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Actually only 6 of the defensive starters have been in this defense for the first two years. Roye, Washington, Davis, Bodden, Jones, and Pool.
5 of the defensive starters have been in this defense for one year or less.
Peek,Wimbley,Wright,Jackson, and Smith
Peek, Wright, and Smith, are in thir first year of this defense.
Now should we expect some inconsistancy there ?
Not poor tackling..I don't care how long or short you've been in a scheme..tackling is tackling, no matter what... Staying in your gap is another thing... This isn't happening because we don't have a NT that can do the job. Teds past his prime, and the rest are average.
Our DEs are, Roye not sure if he's really suited for the 3-4, at least in his end of career years, and Smith, in his first year with the team.
If the rest were average they would still require DT's... I think Shaun is suited for this style but Rac has to let him play NT more..not DE. Our LBs are Wimbly, in his 2nd year with the team still learning a new position and defense.
Jackson, 2nd year with the team and same issues.
Davis , a vet that is average.
Jackson is a bit small ..and I think is getting contained when he comes up into the hole. Davis..please he's never been average..if he were he'd make more plays up at the LOS .. The big problem with this group is , Peek and Wimbley, provide the pass rush, however they get pushed way outside sometimes leavin a gaping hole for the runner.
I would agree with that..however there are ways to disrupt that..and thats putting the end over the tackle into the gap. DQ and davis never have the protection they are supposed to get so they are always trying to move into position to make tackles with someone blocking them.
Thats relative..Davis takes poor angles and is often out of position to make a tackle so I will not give him a ounce on that one.. Because of the lack of linemen doing their job, and the LBs unable to do theirs, the DBs have to hold onto their protections longer,and they bite on fakes to help make up for the lack of a true run defense
Disagree totally with that...the DB's are confused about their assignments and we have a rookie who is too eager and getting used.. U cannot say they are sticking with their man and then say they are getting burned by play fakes... Which is it? Either they're staying with the recievers or they're jumping on the play fakes and getting burned... Knowing how CB's play and react , they are getting burned by the play fakes..and Pool is lost in getting himself in position and knowing what side of the field he's supposed to cover.. Once more I say we need smarter players and for the young ones to gain experience..if they don't work out U replace them. My issue is that I don't blame a coach who loves fundamentals..it's getting them instilled into guys who may be undisciplined..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
The Defense has played scared every since they came out in the 2nd half against the Steelers. For whatever reason no one has any confidence whatsoever in the guy next to them. On the screen pass this weekend the back is 5 yards across the line of scrimmage and i see no dbs. at 15 yards you can see the DBs backing up even more.
This is a scared unit. They lack any semblance of defensive discipline.
When a d gets desperate often the best thing to do is simply turn it loose go all out blitzkrieg. If u are gonna get beat playing passive well u might aswell get aggressive and force the offense to speed things up
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,205
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,205 |
Better to burn up the barrel with guns a blazing then to slowly have your throat cut.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 844
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 844 |
This is where RAC needs to improve! Win and Loss column! I really am expecting him not to be HC after 2008, unless a miracle happens and we make the AFC Championship game or Super Bowl. JMHO
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,393
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,393 |
We are now 2-2 and except for a blocked field goal,, we should be 3-1..
I wanna know, do those of you that wanted RAC fired after the Pittsburgh game still want him fired now?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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