DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum John Dorsey

This article outlines some very concerning issues with Dorsey, but I disagree with the overall premise that Dorsey should be front and center during all that has gone on.

It is very rare that a GM comes out and addresses the media outside of a few times during the season. Reporters can complain all they want but not hearing from the GM isn't anything new.

Just to be clear, was Andy Reid hired before or after John Dorsey was with the chiefs?

Clickbait. We are better and more talented than we have been since our return, period. In only two seasons.

Just hide & watch I guess, no other choices. I had higher hopes and drank way too much kool-aid, but I thought with obvious talent upgrade we would be better. Never expected FK to be this slow on his learning curve.

I will wait out the butt end of this season's latest disappointment. I want a much different, more successful next year. We have more trouble on the sidelines than I thought that we might.

Just mail the rest in?

I believe better when I see better. You are what your record says you are.

Talented, yes. Better, no. not until we have a winning season.

We will have more wins in the past two seasons than any two season stretch since 1993.

What? 2007 we had 10 wins, followed by 4.

Last year, we had 7 wins, followed by 6 as of now. Simple math says we’re down 1.

This is an absurdly low bar. Losing is losing. People have to higher standards, right?

Dorsey absolutely is and should be held accountable for his role in the current state of the franchise. It doesn't mean fire him, but criticism is certainly fair.

My guess is that the next time we hear from John Dorsey is when he's announcing the termination of Freddie Kitchens.

Whether Freddie is fired or not, there is usually a "end of season" press conference from the GM. It's a matter of whether the new HC search will be on the agenda.

Yeah, we’ll hear from Dorsey around January 5th or so

You are assuming we beat Balt and Cincy.

I don't think that's a given.

Right now we are 6-8. If we split, we are 7-9. We were 7-8-1 Last year. Which is a better record

If you take both seasons, we won 14 in 07-08. If we do what I just said - we are tied. With much more talent.

You are mistaken.

Heck, I’ll be surprised if we even split at this point. Cincy is playing better and we seem to be in full meltdown

When a mob starts to starve they will start to eat their own.

I'd think there has to be a small chance that Fred is a stopgap. Maybe? I suppose it's a possibility someone will be freed up that wasn't available at the end of last season. Fred was hired until that happens. Cant be TOO farfetched...

I fully support this statement

If we lose to Cincy, it will be the final nail in Freddie's coffin if it isn't there already.

Agree. And if you asked me where I thought the Browns could possibly be in a season and a half once we fired Hue ... 14 wins would be at the very top end of where I'd hope to be and I'm a perenial Browns optimist.

Now, having gone on a tear with GW last year and with the talent Dorsey acquired I had higher expectations by the start of this season. For sure some of that falls on Dorsey ... Not the least of which is hiring FK. However, I still have more faith in Dorsey than any other GM in recent history. . . . One of the biggest challenges for the organization to overcome is the losing tradition and culture .... Dorsey can't fix that by himself and he can't fix it in 16 months. Jmo

Yeah, I’d bet that JD and Haslam are at the very least contemplating the removal of FK ... an embarrassing loss to the Ravens or a loss to the Bengals would seal it

We won more games in each of the last two years than we did in the preceding 3 or 4 years COMBINED!!!

This year has been a massive failure and i mean MASSIVE ... but lets not re-write history and not give KJ credit where credit is due ... he’s brought in a heck of a lot of very very good football players ...

Our future rests on Bake ... as does KJ’s ... question is:who is bake ... last years stud or this years dud ... stay tuned to next year ...

Last year goes on GW record, not FK

If we lose 1 game out of the next year, we have done worse under Freddie with WAY more talent. That's not a good sign.

I think Bakes regression has a lot to do with Lindley as that's who is working with Bake on a day to day basis.

The gameplans don't help.

But, Freddie should see the passes and mechanics getting worse, and have made a move - He hasn't. That's on him.

I think that's not looking at this the right way. GW had a winning percentage of what??? This year what's FK winning percentage ??? We are already WAY behind. I can't speak to what winniny % the teams we beat this year vs last year is .... That'd be a consideration, but man we've had a weak schedule this year and laid egg after egg.

I think Vers nailed it with the one read QB take .... lets hope he was ether wrong or Bake learns how to read a D in the off season ... with that hopefully his accuracy and confidence come back ...

Right now U can’t really judge him ... u can see it in his eyes on the sidelines ... he’s a shell of his old self confidence wise ... regardless of anything and everything else ... if he can’t learn how to get past his first read he will never play well enough to get his confidence back ...

I agree for the most with you, but both FK and Baker had no problems taking all the credits last year...

That explains a lot of what happened this year, and why I don't think they are the solution.

Baker right now is a bad backup QB, and Freddie is just hated by all, so start cleaning house and fire FK and sign a good backup QB ASAP.

Superbowl MVP QB's have been benched for far less than what Baker did this year.

Build the team around proven balers i,e, Chubb and Jarvis.

Technically, Reid was first, but it was basically at the same time.

Reid was hired on Jan 4th, 2013.
Dorsey was hired on Jan 13th, 2013

Here is a potentially interesting read: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html

The Kitchens hire is a huge black mark on Dorsey’s resume. He put his balls on the table to get that deal done and it’s been an abject failure. Almost as concerning is how he brushed off any issues that the offensive line might have.

Dorsey has blame in the situation we are in but the expectations also wouldn’t have been so high if he didn’t build the roster in the way he did. Whiffing on the head coach needs to be remedied.

Quoted for accuracy.

That looks to be a year apart to me, with Dorsey getting there first.

That's a typo on my part... both were January 2013.
My bad.

J/C

I agree w/those who say FK is a huge failure by Dorsey. For him to listen to Baker THAT much and be that bold with a hire has turned into a disaster

i was just wondering because i didnt know if Dorsey brought in Reid, or who was responsible for the hire there. thanks for the article, btw. its still kind of not clear how what he was doing was enough to get canned?

i'd really like someone to break it down what went south there. i keep seeing some people imply reid and dorsey didnt really mesh and those sorts of things.

That would be where I place my bet, actually.
In the article, they talk about how their styles don't mesh.... I would not be surprised if that caused enough friction for Reid to drop an ultimatum of sorts. In the end, Reid got an extension the same day Dorsey was fired.

Baker needs to be better. No one is saying he doesn't need too. The problem is, Baker is not getting better. he is getting worse. That's on your coach, plain and simple.

all. our best 2 seasons on combined wins was back in 2001-2002 with Butch Davis

2001 - 7 wins 9 losses
2002 - 9 wins 7 losses

16-16.

...since the browns came back in 1999 of course...

all. our best 2 seasons on combined wins was back in 2001-2002 with Butch Davis

2001 - 7 wins 9 losses
2002 - 9 wins 7 losses

16-16.

Reading a defense post snap is something either one can learn to do or one can't. Many QB's with great arms never managed to do that. They have been casualties of not making it in this league for years.

I'm not saying that's the case with Mayfield. But it's not as easy as teaching it to someone. It has to be a natural thing they simply have the ability to do or they don't. Your mind has to have the ability to process a lot of information in a split second. It's a rare trait.

And often times it's why a QB with less actual physical gifts can do better than often times more gifted athletes at the position.

Eh... that's a gross oversimplification.

Can a teacher make you learn calculus faster than you're capable of? I don't think so.

Granted, it is the teacher's job to try to find a way of teaching something that resonates with an individual student, but not everyone is capable of learning calculus.

As for the getting worse... if the above is indeed what his problem is, then he likely is back there thinking too much right now because he isn't yet at the point where he inherently just KNOWS. It's his second season... that is actually kinda normal. Guys like Mahomes blowing the roof off places in their second season is out of the ordinary and while it is the hoped-for result, it shouldn't be the expectation.

Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it.

Sounds familiar....

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html

Sources: Communication, management style were factors in Chiefs’ firing of Dorsey
By Terez A. Paylor
tpaylor@kcstar.com

June 25, 2017 03:40 PM


Nine key moments in the John Dorsey-Andy Reid era for the Chiefs

A list of significant events in the Andy Reid-John Dorsey era with the Kansas City Chiefs, which ended Thursday after four-plus years following Dorsey’s departure as general manager. By Blair Kerkhoff and Jeff Patterson
The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork.
They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks.
But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity.
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As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.”
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A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned.

Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired.
While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs.

While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser.
“He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey.
That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team.

“He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.”
“It’s more about his management skills,” another source added.
For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization.
“Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.”
Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others.

“It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said.
Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths.
“Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.”
“He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.”
Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star.
“He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said.
“One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.”
Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation.
“A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.”
Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless.
“He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.”
It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM.
“I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.”
Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two.
“We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM.
“To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.”

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html#storylink=cpy