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J/c
Baker certainly hasn’t been stellar this season but anyone characterizing him as sucking and we need to move on must not have see a Browns QB before. But that’s just me.
The offense as a whole is disjointed, out of sync. The fact that we have players constantly having to put other players in position demonstrates this. I think we should count ourselves lucky Baker is one of the guys who knows where people are supposed to be. Jarvis is the other guy and I don’t think it’s a coincidence he’s Bakers most reliable WR.
Baker surely has missed open guys, but I think we have to factor in that with such a disjointed offense, just because the guy is open doesn’t mean he’s where he’s supposed to be. That doesn’t necessarily absolve Baker from all of most misses, but I think it’s a legit factor to consider.
Baker not realizing how much work he needed to put in during the off season is yet another thing I lay at Freddie’s feet. I think too often we assume that because a 22 yr old is being paid millions that they automatically should know what being a professional entails. Contrast that with the guy who is twice his age and worked in the NFL for over a decade. Freddie should have known better than to tell Baker to get away from football for awhile. There was plenty of time for commercials and getting married. I don’t count those against him. But Freddie should have demanded more. He clearly didn’t and that again speaks to my criticism of Freddie not being mature enough for his position.
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You’re forgetting guys like wentz, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Darnold, tannehil, mahomes, carr, Prescott, Jones, trubisky, Rodgers, Newton, and Murray. All guys who aren’t traditional drop back passers, but really dual threats, or close to it. They have wheels and will gash you if you aren’t paying attention.
Lamar might be the most athletic out of all of them, but the style itself is no longer cyclical. It’s here bro. And these LBs and D linemen are too fast today to be drafting pure pocket passers. I agree. It was bound to happen. I pointed this out 15 years ago. The college game figured this out long ago when all they could recruit was run option/spread QBs because that was all the high schools were turning out.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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You did call this many years ago and you were spot on about it. Credit where it is due.
I also agree the Ravens have done a nice job. Not just with Lamar but also building that offense around Lamar and also bringing in two other guys who can run the same scheme. There have been teams in the past who would have their starter as a mobile/zone-read guy and the other guys on the depth chart as traditional dropback passers. Never made sense. If you're going to do it then do it, go all in like the Ravens have and build your offense around it. Like I said in another thread, I wish it was a team other than Baltimore but what can you do.
I also believe there's a little more to it, though. Guys who have the throwing ability, mobility, and durability to succeed doing what Lamar is doing are very hard to find. Even Lamar's story is not even close to being fully written yet, though he is playing outstanding and has held up thus far. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, just from an NFL fan perspective.
If I had a young Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning, I'd have no issue with building an offense around those guys either. As mentioned though, those guys are also hard to find.
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I feel John Dorsey has made a mistake with Freddie although I thought it was a good gamble considering where this team was at this time last year. JD has done a lot of good things with this team and deserves a chance to correct the FK hire. We do have a good amount of talent and with another solid draft and FA period we can contend next year providing we get the right HC and staff in here. That will be a big decision but I'm sure there will be some guys out there that would like to be our HC with the talent we have.
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After Seattle reality kicked in for Baker. He seemed to put his head down and get his lunch pale.
He has salvaged a dumpster fire of a season and made it average. that's better than what many other players have done
If he goes into the offseason and improves himself, he will be much further along in year 3 and will likely be the face of the franchise for 10 more years
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Baker had a better coaching staff last year and that is why he has regressed this year.
It is obvious Freddie wasn't that big of a help to Baker as we thought last year.
The qb coach Ken Zampese had a lot to do with Baker's success in his rookie year, not Freddie.
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John, it is obvious, Freddie needs to go...Hire either Rivera or McCarthy.
Both would be sufficient upgrades to this crap staff.
One has won a Super Bowl and the other has appeared in a Super Bowl.
I have been preaching this for years. Hire a damn experienced head coach who has an obvious track record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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home wood, I think there are a lot of coaches, who it evaluated after their first season, would have been deemed a “mistake”. They later went on to fine coaching careers, some even hall of fame careers. We have pulled the firing trigger so quickly so many times yet we have gotten nowhere. For once we need to keep on keepin on with our head coach, and probably most of the staff.
I do have concerns about the direction baker has received this year. He was so effective downfield last season and not this season, I wonder why. Losing Myles for 6-7 games killed a defense that was underperforming anyway.
We need. I add more pieces, build on what we have and be better next year. Maybe a lot of us overrated our team preseason, mostly because of odells addition.
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I feel John Dorsey has made a mistake with Freddie although I thought it was a good gamble considering where this team was at this time last year. JD has done a lot of good things with this team and deserves a chance to correct the FK hire. We do have a good amount of talent and with another solid draft and FA period we can contend next year providing we get the right HC and staff in here. That will be a big decision but I'm sure there will be some guys out there that would like to be our HC with the talent we have. I wasn’t thrilled with the hiring of Freddie, but i did understand the pros and cons behind it. I don’t know how much one can blame Dorsey for taking the gamble to put the franchise ahead of the curve, but there’s more he could have done to mitigate the risk like making him OC. I get you want whoever your HC is to actually have who he wants as His coordinator, which would make even more sense to have looked at Bruce Arians. Assuming he would have kept Freddie as his OC, that route makes the most sense: you have experience at the helm, you keep what you believe is your up and commer, and you create a mentor type situation that isn’t uncomfortable for either party. At this point if we bring anyone in as a mentor, or advisor, or any other such thing, it’ll make Freddienlook even more unqualified. This is the danger of putting a person in a leadership position that has such a massive learning curve. You can only expect so much patience from the subordinates before morale takes a nose dive because everyone is tired of waiting on the guy who’s supposed to know what he’s doing.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
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I also agree the Ravens have done a nice job. Not just with Lamar but also building that offense around Lamar and also bringing in two other guys who can run the same scheme. There have been teams in the past who would have their starter as a mobile/zone-read guy and the other guys on the depth chart as traditional dropback passers. Never made sense. If you're going to do it then do it, go all in like the Ravens have and build your offense around it. Like I said in another thread, I wish it was a team other than Baltimore but what can you do. That is what I was talking about when I said the Ravens are the first team to go all in. To me it is a lot easier to plug and play another QB who can leg it out then to have a drop back guy go down and have to plug and play another drop back QB. You don't have to change anything.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I feel John Dorsey has made a mistake with Freddie although I thought it was a good gamble considering where this team was at this time last year. JD has done a lot of good things with this team and deserves a chance to correct the FK hire. We do have a good amount of talent and with another solid draft and FA period we can contend next year providing we get the right HC and staff in here. That will be a big decision but I'm sure there will be some guys out there that would like to be our HC with the talent we have. I agree. Dorsey has his faults, but no way we consider replacing him. He does deserve the chance to correct the hire. He went on a hunch I suppose. Freddie was the path of least resistance. I get the feeling Dorsey wanted a coach who wouldn't push back like a Williams. Hopefully he doesn't make the same mistake twice. He needs to hire a head coach and not look for his yes man.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think Dorsey deserves a fair amount of the blame for what has transpired this year - and I was on-board with the Kitchens hire as head coach. Here's why his suite seat should be toasty this holiday season:
Week after week I watch teams in the NFL throw with great success to their TE...or multiple TEs. They are a QBs best friend behind a good OL. What did Dorsey do at that position? He failed...that's what he did. Now there appears to be a rift with our supposed 'stud' TE. One of our TE's from last year has about a half dozen TD catches so far this year...but he plays for the Texans.
Week after week I watch other young QBs standing and running behind OLs that are very good and that were bought/drafted/developed with the apparent understanding that a young QB needs a stout OL. What did Dorsey do at that unit? He failed...he weakened the interior and rolled-the-dice with the OTs.
Week after week I watch young QBs play in a system that appears to make sense for them. The coaches on those teams have a plan that everyone understands and that the players - and most importantly the QB - can run effectively. How did Dorsey's decision at HC/OC work out? I'd say he failed. Rolled the dice and lost again.
How did Dorsey's move across the DL work out? We've had a revolving door along the DL. Ogbah was a decent sub for KC until he got hurt...Nassib is a Team Captain in TB...we gave away Avery because the DC thought he was "limited"...C Smith was waived and we just signed yet-another practice squad DL guy to the 53. D Lawerence went from unblockable in TC to waived. Dorsey couldn't control the MG suspension or Vernon's injury...but his work building depth at this position was poor.
Dorsey's two signature moves in the off-season have been failures vs what was expected and the $$$ spent - not to mention he traded our #1 pick in 2019 for that mess. His first pick in the 2nd Rd 2018 - first overall in that round mind you - was a bust here...we got a fifth for him...whoopty heaven.
He hit with Mayfield, Chubb, Seibert, Redwine (apparently growing) and had the guts to sign Hunt, Gillan, Burnett and Richardson. The jury is out on a lot of other guys like Ward, Williams, C Thomas, M Wilson. He used a first to bring in OBJ.
It's his team and his team is a mess right now. That said, I don't want him fired...but his seat better be nice and warm this winter.
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Fair break down ! Landry also
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I think Dorsey deserves a fair amount of the blame for what has transpired this year - and I was on-board with the Kitchens hire as head coach. Here's why his suite seat should be toasty this holiday season:
Week after week I watch teams in the NFL throw with great success to their TE...or multiple TEs. They are a QBs best friend behind a good OL. What did Dorsey do at that position? He failed...that's what he did. Now there appears to be a rift with our supposed 'stud' TE. One of our TE's from last year has about a half dozen TD catches so far this year...but he plays for the Texans.
Week after week I watch other young QBs standing and running behind OLs that are very good and that were bought/drafted/developed with the apparent understanding that a young QB needs a stout OL. What did Dorsey do at that unit? He failed...he weakened the interior and rolled-the-dice with the OTs.
Week after week I watch young QBs play in a system that appears to make sense for them. The coaches on those teams have a plan that everyone understands and that the players - and most importantly the QB - can run effectively. How did Dorsey's decision at HC/OC work out? I'd say he failed. Rolled the dice and lost again.
How did Dorsey's move across the DL work out? We've had a revolving door along the DL. Ogbah was a decent sub for KC until he got hurt...Nassib is a Team Captain in TB...we gave away Avery because the DC thought he was "limited"...C Smith was waived and we just signed yet-another practice squad DL guy to the 53. D Lawerence went from unblockable in TC to waived. Dorsey couldn't control the MG suspension or Vernon's injury...but his work building depth at this position was poor.
Dorsey's two signature moves in the off-season have been failures vs what was expected and the $$$ spent - not to mention he traded our #1 pick in 2019 for that mess. His first pick in the 2nd Rd 2018 - first overall in that round mind you - was a bust here...we got a fifth for him...whoopty heaven.
He hit with Mayfield, Chubb, Seibert, Redwine (apparently growing) and had the guts to sign Hunt, Gillan, Burnett and Richardson. The jury is out on a lot of other guys like Ward, Williams, C Thomas, M Wilson. He used a first to bring in OBJ.
It's his team and his team is a mess right now. That said, I don't want him fired...but his seat better be nice and warm this winter. Dorsey has done more bad than good up to this point. He made moves he didn't need to do. He gave/took on terrible contracts. And imagine if Dorsey wasn't gifted all those extra picks. This team is a mess. There doesn't seem to be a plan and this team has no identity.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I agree the team is a mess, but it's fixable. There is talent here. There is a good FO in place with a proven track record that has made some bad moves but can rectify them this offseason. And let's face it, when you get the coach and QB wrong, you have no chance, no matter how talented the rest of the roster is. The three most important players in an organization are owner, coach, and QB. 2 of those three are trash (owner and coach) and the third may be trash or doesn't have much chance because the other two are trash. Dorsey needs to fix what he broke, and they need to get a good coach in here. I think a combination of good coach and Baker (if he can turn it around) can somewhat neutralize Haslam. But the Haslams have created such an awful culture that nothing might be able to overcome it.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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The NFL is kinda cyclical. Mike Vick was what Lamar is. He was going to revolutionize the game.
But guys like Lamar and Vick don't come around every day.
I am not sure it is going to cycle back this time around. In Vick's era, QB durability was a major concern. These days, QBs are taking fewer big hits, which may mean they can continue to be run first QBs for 10 years. Additionally, with the pass interference rules and receiver protection rules, QBs no longer have to be as good at finding the open receiver. They can throw to a receiver that is tightly covered and come away with a PI call 30% of the time. If the defender has his back turned, they will take a chance. On the other hand, Tom Brady won the last SB, and Drew Brees is still the best there is.
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You might need to change your sig.....one, it is dated....two it is smack talk, and three, our "real" players aren't doing all that well. Just saying
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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JC....
I think for the most part our biggest struggles on D has been at Safety...and on O it has been OL...Both are positions where Dorsey has extracted talented pieces (Zeitler and Peppers) and replaced them with inferior talent....and it has showed severely. He (Dorsey) needs a big offseason, and needs to not reach so much when drafting imho. He gets a little to happy with overdoing the roster (whether its trades or flipping players for draft picks...just seems to do it far too often when you are trying to build consistency with continuity)
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If Dorsey is out you will see either Highsmith or Wolf announced as GM. I expect of the two it would be Elliot Wolf GM and Highsmith retain his position as is. Unless, of course, Dorsey goes elsewhere and bring Alonzo with him.
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Amazing how things change. 15 games ago Dorsey walked on water and we were all praising "In Dorsey We Trust".
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JC....
I think for the most part our biggest struggles on D has been at Safety Losing Burnett was huge. He was our only player who had postseason experience.
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Amazing how things change. 15 games ago Dorsey walked on water and we were all praising "In Dorsey We Trust". I think we were all seeing the light at the end of the tunnel after so many years of darkness. However, as in the old Warner Brothers cartoons, that light was just another train bearing down on us. Perhaps we should just put up a sign at the stadium saying, "First Energy Stadium, Home of Wile E Coyote - Super Genius"
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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If Dorsey is out you will see either Highsmith or Wolf announced as GM. I expect of the two it would be Elliot Wolf GM and Highsmith retain his position as is. Unless, of course, Dorsey goes elsewhere and bring Alonzo with him. There is no reason to Jettison Dorsey - he's not been perfect and he crapped the bed with Freddie. Fire Freddie - get an experienced HC in here and move forward. Dorsey has shown more than enough to earn a 3rd season.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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There is a good FO in place with a proven track record that has made some bad moves but can rectify them this offseason. And let's face it, when you get the coach and QB wrong, you have no chance, no matter how talented the rest of the roster is. The three most important players in an organization are owner, coach, and QB. Rish, how you can you say there is a good FO in place and then in the next sentence say they got the two most important hires wrong in the HC and QB? You can't be great at your job and screw up the most vital hires to your organization and be considered successful, right? What is their track record? We have cast-offs from successful organizations that did not feel retaining them was a priority and quite frankly, haven't missed a beat since they've been replaced.
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I'm holding out hope that Dorsey isn't a lost cause. Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith I thought were all highly regarded around the league. They can't all be bad, right?
And I'm holding out hope that Baker is the guy. No one wants to blame Baker for anything and instead blames everyone else. I've got to even out those scales. Too much hero worship and not calling if like it is with Baker. But I'm not really sure they got that Baker wrong. I don't think we know yet.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't think Dorsey is the issue. I think coaching was the issue. Hype was the issue. Inexperience was the issue. Injuries and missteps were an issue as well.
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No one wants to blame Baker for anything and instead blames everyone else.
Show me - anyone, anytime, any post- where posters are not giving Baker a portion of the blame? Show me anyone that says he's played well this season. Show me anyone who says he hasn't been a disappointment and needs to improve ....... Or save yourself some time and admit that you can't - because as far as I have seen EVERYONE agrees Baker has not played well enough this year and needs to get better. The ONLY difference is you and other Baker haters have blamed Baker for how the Defense has performed and other such incomprehensible things - while most on here think that while Baker was really bad in a handful of early games... he's shown a little bit of improvement with accuracy for the rest of the season even if it's still not good enough, but for many of the games, while Baker could have played better, he was NOT the reason for losing.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I'm holding out hope that Dorsey isn't a lost cause. Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith I thought were all highly regarded around the league. They can't all be bad, right?
And I'm holding out hope that Baker is the guy. No one wants to blame Baker for anything and instead blames everyone else. I've got to even out those scales. Too much hero worship and not calling if like it is with Baker. But I'm not really sure they got that Baker wrong. I don't think we know yet.
I am with you on both counts. Dorsey is excellent at evaluating talent but am not sure we balances things to help the whole organization. We have a lot of shiny fixtures, but the foundation is fairly weak. One has to plan long term in that position. I am not sure he is very good at that. If he is as good as we think, why did he leave Kansas City. To think it was simply a power struggle with the coach is short sighted. With Baker, we can point out faults, or perceived faults, but we have seen two different QB's in two seasons. That is the only real issue. My take is it is easier to have a poor season, for whatever the reason(s) then to have a supurb season like he did last year. That tells me the ability is there. We have to instill change, be it with him or other areas of the team to get him that player back. Obviously Freddie has been a big problem. Virtually every area of the team is floundering except special teams. It wasn't that way the last half of last season. Some can be pinned on Freddie, some on Dorsey. Or, it could be that Baker is a flash in the pan. Those type seasons usually happen with QB's after they have been around a while and not their rookie season, so I have hope we can get "that" Baker back. Now it rests with Dorsey. I think he hired Freddie for a lot of reasons, and one is he knew he would have a head coach under his thumb. That can not be part of the criteria with this next hire. He has to hire a real head coach, even if it means that he and said coach butt heads from time to time. We can't have Casper Milquetoast, the man who spoke softly and got beat with a big stick as our next head coach.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Nice points, and I agree w/the assessment of JD”s hiring of FK. Plus, he felt Baker wanted him.
His charge now is to admit his mistake, wish FK well, and find a REAL coach. One with some clout and a backbone. One that might challenge him and take some of his power. It’s tough to do, but JD has to do it.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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The days of Tex Schramm picking the players and Tom Landry coaching the players are over. Any team that is winning and going to playoffs has a strong head coach.
I would be in favor of the head coach picking the first two players, then the scouting department making the rest of the picks. No doubt both sides would discuss the merits of various players.
It's not that hard to make the first couple of picks...in theory. I think mistakes with those picks is because people think too much.
The later picks are harder and you do need solid scouting to sift through the chaff.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't think Dorsey is the issue. I think coaching was the issue. Hype was the issue. Inexperience was the issue. Injuries and missteps were an issue as well. I agree. And calling passing plays on 1st and goal is stupidity. Possibly insane.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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I have always believed it's all hands on deck dor the draft with the GM having the final. Were I differ is on the 53 man roster . The coach has to wen ( or loose ) with them . That should be the coaching staff desiccation
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I don't think Dorsey is the issue. I think coaching was the issue. Hype was the issue. Inexperience was the issue. Injuries and missteps were an issue as well. I agree. And calling passing plays on 1st and goal is stupidity. Possibly insane. I don't mind passing plays 1st and goal. Once in a while - with a running back lined up in the backfield so the D does not have a 99% certainty of whether you are running or passing.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974 |
So far Derek Anderson is the best Browns QB I've ever seen. I’m sorry. I hope this changes. I can’t imagine being a fan if this team and not having all those memories from the 80’s to keep me going. Tim Couch is the best that I can remember. I was born in 85, but I don't really recall much from the 90s as I lived in Florida then and it was really really hard to watch a game in those days outside of the market. lol My Dad took me to a game in Otto Graham's last season. I was 6 or 7. I can't say I really remember Otto, though I do remember my Dad telling me to watch him. I was more excited about sitting with my Dad at my first Browns game. As overwhelming as my first Indians game...the greenest grass I ever saw. Wow! That's awesome. I cannot wait until I take my son to a game. Hes 4 now, but I don't think I can take him anytime soon. Too many drunks and hooligans anymore. My brother waited until my nephews were 12 before he took him. IDK if I can wait that long - so maybe 10.
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974 |
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen. Isnt the coach you backed selling happy bday videos for 50.00 a piece right now? I guess he found a new chair to sit in.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,067
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,067 |
This sounds reasonable to me. Tells a bunch about what a HC really intends as to his direction, well beyond Best Player Available. Where does GM fit in this? Hands off? And suppose I want to trade up into a higher round than my pick. Curious as to what that might involve. Can this be worse than some past lunacy we have seen. Having someone who can judge players is vital. WWe also have seen that somebody who cannot is lethal. Great scouts and solid scouting are vital for later rounds. I just need to lay off the Kool-aid this offseason. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974 |
John Dorsey - "we gotta get some football players"
Proceeds to not even discuss contract extension with Pro Bowl LB, and leader of defense. . . .
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Dorsey has some work cut out for him.
The reality is we have a lot of guys to pay. Schobert should be one of him, but he might end up walking. The Browns currently have one of the most expensive teams in the league, and we'd be over the cap if not for rollover from previous years. This is despite many key players being on rookie contracts.
It's looking like we spent too much, too soon, before this team was ready to compete.
It's still salvageable though. There's a lot of good young talent here. We need to get the coaching fixed and player development up a notch.
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 8,974 |
Dorsey has some work cut out for him.
The reality is we have a lot of guys to pay. Schobert should be one of him, but he might end up walking. The Browns currently have one of the most expensive teams in the league, and we'd be over the cap if not for rollover from previous years. This is despite many key players being on rookie contracts.
It's looking like we spent too much, too soon, before this team was ready to compete.
It's still salvageable though. There's a lot of good young talent here. We need to get the coaching fixed and player development up a notch. Oh, there are def guys that are goin to have to walk. That's a no brainer. NE does it every year. But we are gong to lose Kiro and Randall. I would suspect Vernon will not be on the books next year, along with others. They can get Schobert done if they wanted.
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