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Agree with Reich, hes been dealt a really bad hand, and has delivered considerably.

My buddy is a die hard colts fan and was complaining about this year, and Im like dude "your franchise Qb literally up and quit like a day before season started, your owner is a coke head, and last you a coach dog you after accepting the job only for the team to mugshot and find a guy at last second. I would think considering the mess yall have been dealt - they have pretty well considering"

He's had some tough runs in rivalry matchups and big games, no doubt about it. Some of them have been freak plays/bad breaks, but Michigan has been thoroughly dominated by Ohio State. A lot of that is recruiting though, as Ohio State pulls in the best players in the Big Ten pretty much every year.

All things considered though, I still think Jim Harbaugh to be an excellent coach. Were he available and willing to come to Cleveland, he'd be on my A-list of candidates.

And you think that would change in Cleveland?

The guy to me is a decent coach, and a guy that stabilize your team and make it completive. I want a super bowl, hes not the guy to do that.

No Harbaughs, please. We need a different offense, and upgrade to a competitive D scheme we can play. It has to be strong up the middle IMO.

Rivera will be gone soon as we coddle this dysfunctioning mess. Maybe FK and Co. can sort stuff out eventually, but I am not that curious. He seems to admit to mistakes after we lose, and I really think his judgment and decisions are inexcusably and consistently wrong.

If he is staying, fix him first. Don't think we can.

I think it's actually the other way around. Harbaugh is a high risk, high reward kind of guy. His teams always play tough and physical. They're well coached. Those 49ers teams did not win a Super Bowl, but with a couple proper calls (one against the Ravens.. pass interference on the pass to Crabtree, the strip fumble called dead against the Seahawks) and they could have easily won two of them.

On the other hand, he does have a brash personality. He'll rub some members of the front office the wrong way. Not sure him and Dorsey could co-exist. Harbaugh has been known to leave jobs after a few years. Coaching/front office turmoil isn't exactly what this team needs right now.

If you want a guy to stabilize your team and make it competitive, Ron Rivera or Mike McCarthy would be better choices. Or go down the coordinator/college head coach route. If you want a Super Bowl, Jim Harbaugh is as good of a choice as any as far as I can tell.

We have talent.. We need discipline. We need someone who knows the game and is a proven coach at the NFL level. Harbaugh is that. You can't look at the Super Bowl when you can't get above .500

I say we bring in Tom Coughlin as a special assistant to the HC. His job will mainly be yelling at people for not doing their jobs and being a stickler for details with the players. No real decision making power, but being Freddie's bad cop.

Coughlin is one of the more underrated football people of all time. He took the expansion Jaguars and made them a contending team, and won two Super Bowls with a mediocre QB as coach of the Giants.

That said, his schtick is probably too old-school in this day and age and I don't think players respond to it too well. It might work as a coach-- it certainly didn't work as an executive in his more recent stint in Jacksonville.

That said, once you strip a coach of his authority, like that would be doing to Freddie, you might as well just move on with the guy.

It's easier to be too strict to begin with and then back off, than it is to be the buddy buddy coach that tries to regain control after he loses the team.

People said Pete Carroll would fail a 2nd time and he has been highly successful. I am by no means advocating Josh McDaniels, but for fans to say he would be a failure and cite what happened in Denver as their example is ridiculous. By that standard, then Urban Meyer will be a failure and those who want him in Cleveland are simply OSU homers.

Who knows how either would do as HC. Who knows how Freddie will do in year 2? I can say with certain confidence that I worry more about FK making the same mistakes in year 2 rather than us prematurely cutting times and him going on to being some great coaching mind on another team.

This is part of the major problems.

The Browns should only replace about 2-3 players per one offseason, (actually 6) (but they are in need of a change in thinking because they are replacing far too many as a rule, in previous offseasons)

Of their Starting 22. IN any one year.

But currently they are replacing about 13-14, and

a thing they should never do, "almost never", they are beginning to do on a repeated basis, that is they are replacing 4,5, or 6 players of their starting 22
after roster cut down day for all 32 teams in late August before week 1 opening day.

They should make a point to never bring in more than Zero-One player in that time frame
unless, the only other time they would is if they had no healthy bodies on their team, i.e. were an expansion team.

Roster turnover has screwed the Browns almost every year of the continuous years without playoffs or a winning record streak.

What 13 players do we need to replace?

And anyone that think Mack Wilson sucks should take up golf. The kid played pretty dang well for a 5th round pick and I am excited as all heck for him to develop.

We need two starting Tackles, and apparently a TE to replace David as it looks like he will be traded since he cant see the field.

On def, we need to replace Vernon, Randall, and possibly Shobert.

Who am I missing?

GC. Anyone talking about keeping Freddie Kitchens and bringing in a couple advisors,
to bring a more structured, regimented, environment, and one where nobody is overwhelmed or in over their head. ?

What kind of advisor/coach, What kind of role or title would anyone have or keep?

I don't know, that's for the big ballers to decide.

I think they need to make an effort to keep each of the players you mentioned.

keep Both starting tackles,

keep Njoku,,
Keep Vernon, and Randall, and Schobert,

Keep the entire 53 man roster, and bring back Myles Garrett.
Only about 6 new players should make the team by next years opening day.
In a perfect scenario anyway.

I hope we keep Freddie just to watch all the exploding heads in this place ... *L* ...

Our tackles are garbage and making a decent load money wise for backups. They will be released. No way Greg Robinson stays, that's for sure. If Hubbard is willing to be a backup, then ok, but I believe Lamm is a better than he is and I would argue McRay as well.

They will both be gone.


Why would we want to try to keep Randall? He has a been a distraction and problem this year with reports that have been out, and refused to practice. That's not the type of guy you want on your team. Good riddance.

Vernon is not living up to his dollar amount, unless he takes a MASSIVE paycut, he will be gone.

Schobert is the only one worth trying to keep, but the FO apparently does not think so.

Mack Wilson has been solid. I think we all had images of his picks and pick 6s in TC and preseason and we had high expectations. But, he has had a solid rookie season and will continue to improve.

As will Genard Avery.

I’ve thought about the hilarity of that scenario too. If you had a thread about the good things you like about Freddie’s coaching, what would you say?

(In response to Diam’s post)

What I like about Freddies coaching? Well for one there's plenty of drama, intrigue, mystery (you never know what's going to happen next) and just plain fun and frivolity. We must garner the most laughs of any team in the league. Whether you want to admit it or not our Browns are entertaining to everyone but a Browns fan.

According to all the DC's we've faced, they do know what's coming next.

Vernon missed five games in 2018 , how many this season ?

Wilson was supposed to be a backup and ST demon and eventually take Kiksey's spot. That plan got accelerated way sooner than anyone wanted.

He's been decent as 5th Rd rookies go who should have stayed in college another year...his positioning in run D has been pretty bad tho. I think he has a long way to go, but the return on investment has been ok IMO. I think he's a guy who will be pretty good starting somewhere in his 3rd yr.

The Avery giveaway was inexcusable. Wilks didn't like him or couldn't figure out how to use him (amazingly) and Dorsey gave him away to placate Wilks (IMO)...who will be gone in about five days.

If only OBJ could do that coming out of the huddle.

Wouldn't that require that he be in the huddle to start with?

What have I liked about Freddie’s coaching .... not much .... lots of bad with more good than most want to give him credit for ... he’s done a bad job and deserves his share of the blame but he’s not been near as bad as some want to make him out to be ...

If he’s lost the locker room he should all ready be gone ... there’s been way to much bad and way to much hard headedness and I think he got way to close with the players ... two bad hires at coordinator haven’t helped ....

Plenty of bad ...

- too many empty sets inside the 5 at the beggining of the season ...
- too much passing when Hunt came back ....
- not enough Chubb in the passing game ....
- horrible clock management ....
- in game/halftime adjustments ....

It wasn’t pretty .... there was some good ....

- there was improvement ... i think we ran one empty backfield set over the last 4 or 5 games and that was on 1st down from the 1 or 2 ... incomplete pass and then we ran it in ..

Our OL STUNK at short yardage blocking ... they were horrible .... getting a hard or two was an incredibly hard task for that group ....

- he had good game plans all year long .... we usually started out strong ... then it could get ugly ...

- we beat the Rats and Jill’s ...

- Chubb is at or near the top in rushing yards ..... tip of the cap top the OL on that one ... and yes, we have a RB with a ton of yards even though the OL has stunk ... but the OL was not in the top 3 issues this team had ....

Other than Chubb, VG and Shobert this entire team from the coaching staff to Bake to MG to Vernon to the OL has seriously underachieved ..... plenty of blame to go around .... with Freddie leading the pack ....

More later ...

Easy enough to fix. He needs to drop bread crumbs, maybe croutons. to find his way back to the huddle. Thought this might have been a trickily at first. LOL

Surprised me with the gem!

I’m not sure what ya’all expected ... dude is who he is ...

Considering how the season went and his injury i thought he was well behaved ...

Agree with this entirely (and the breakdown on FK) .... I think the negative on OBJ is mainly carry over from his behavior with the NYG and people predispositioned to not liking him as an individual. He hasn't mouthed off, he hasn't vented on the sidelines, he hasn't punched any CB's .... Purely on a disciplinary level and off the top of my head [1] he wore a watch and got fined and he [2] wore a gray visor and was told to remove it in game or he was fined [3] did't have his knees covered for a game and got fined [4] didn't get back to the huddle and was videoed disinterested.

* I should add that for at least 2 of those "issues" - other players do the same thing week in week out without ever getting a fine or comment.

OBJ was always going to come with some baggage which is his personality - which was well known. Anyone thinking he was going to join the Browns and be a choir boy musta been smokin' something good. Given his reputation - given how bad the Browns have played, given how the QB has played, given the play calling and HC .... and given his rep, I think OBJ has been 'well behaved' indeed.

If only he knew the playbook and could get lined up properly without help.

I know spelling isn't a skill set of yours, and I am not a spelling Nazi, but I can tell you are a New Yorker who moved to the promised land in South Carolina.

It's Y'all. It's a contraction,. It contracts you-all. Like don't contracts do not, or can't contracts can not. The apostrophe is placed where the omission in spelling occurred.


You are now a Southerner, Bubba….it's y'all, meaning it is you all.

Y'all
Y'all

Read and learn. Love ya man. Merry Christmas.

With all the talent on this team, and Great coaching, how come I keep on feeling the entire first 8 games of the season, (2-6), the offense went primarily through Dontrel Hilliard,
when everyone knows, Duke, or Hunt, or realizing neither one of <them were there, were 3 better options.

Thanks for the lesson ... got it ...

Y’all .... hopefully it won’t happen again .. *L* ..

Merry Christmas to you to my friend ... Love u too ...

I don't come to that conclusion at all...although you did a nice job of laying out your point there.

I bought into the OBJ-with-his-brother-Landry hype. I wanted to believe that those two would transcend this offense with speed, skill and desire like we've never seen before. Instead, we got bad routes, poor awareness, an astounding inability to line up correctly and painful drops like we've seen plenty of times before...and...last week a taunting penalty while we were 6-8 and about to get our butts kicked again.

Add in the overall COST to acquire such issues and I'd call his acquisition a major fail. We were a better offensive machine with regular contributions from Higgins & Perriman than with OBJ...and could have kept our #1 pick and whatever we ultimately gave up to get such underwhelming and frustrating production...not to mention the $$$ invested in such silliness and what will soon be a second productive player purged from the roster...yet another middle-class guy lost - to use Joe T's comment from awhile ago.

We went from spreading the ball around to 6-8 guys per game to primarily focusing on the Landry/OBJ duo as if they had actually become the Wonder Twins we had HOPED for. Add in Freddie's 180 degree turn to complete arrogance with stubbornness and Baker's off-season and in-season mis/lack-of direction and we should have a lot of deserved-heat under some peoples' butts.

When I by a car and someone asks me if I like it, the best praise I could ever give to that car is that I would buy it again. If I could unwind the OBJ trade I'd do in an instant. JMO

Well we are talking about 2 completely different things. Maybe 3.

1. Behavior.
2. Performance on the field - and whether the mere presence of OBJ has upset the balance of the team/offense.
3. Was it a good trade.

On 1 - I think I spelled out how I feel in my first post.

On 2 - his performance, like Baker's and many has been far below expectations. He's injured and I think we have had a terrible HC/Offensive scheme - both impacted his play but don't account for things like not knowing the play book/where to line up and his drops which have been many. . . . Personally I don't know how anyone gauges the impact on team chemistry/offensive balance because Freddie's offense overall has been a bit of a cluster F. I'm not going to blame Baker's regression on OBJ - I am not going to blame lack of ball dispersion on OBJ. Too many moving parts to know or prove that.

On 3 - OBJ needs to be the OBJ from before the trade and one of the best WR's in the game for the trade to be worth it. If he's not that - then I think anyone would want to unwind the trade if it was possible. Impossible to judge with Baker's regression, Freddie's offense, OBJ's injury.

This will still be the first time in a very long time that we've had a 1000 yd runner and two 1000 yard receivers ( if OBJ gets about 60 more yards against the Bengals ).

Who cares? The record darkens those accomplishments....

Can you say 6-10? (After Sunday's loss)

And the time we give him has been an issue often as well. Drafting linemen is never sexy.

Joe Thomas was exceptional. Let him help pick the next one?

OBJ will get 1,000 yards on about 1,000 targets haha ... Chubb and Landry have had great individual seasons, but it’ll get lost due to our poor performance (as it should)

How much do we think the health of players effected the offense this year?

OBJ has been dealing with something all season. Njoku missed most of the season. Now it comes out Landry has had a hip issue most of the year.

Chubb is the only starting skill player that has been healthy.

Baker took a beating early in the season, too. I wasn't sure he was going to survive the GRob kick game.

I think everyone agrees it has looked bad. There are some mitigating circumstances, though.

Throw in new systems on both sides of the ball (OL/Passing game, entire D)

It would probably have been a challenging season for NE Bill B.

Will the Cleveland Browns fire Freddie Kitchens? Here’s my guess...

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...s-my-guess.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
ABOUT FREDDIE KITCHENS

I don’t know if the Browns will fire coach Freddie Kitchens.

If I had to bet, it would be on the team making a coaching change within a few days after Sunday’s season finale in Cincinnati.

My sense is the Browns know the promotion of Kitchens from offensive coordinator to head coach was a mistake. They know he has been overwhelmed at times. They know he’s not fully to blame for the team’s frustrating 6-9 season.

But what are the main reasons to retain Kitchens?

Because it looks bad for a team to fire a coach after a single season? Because the Browns have been firing too many coaches for too many years?

There needs to be a stronger argument than simple continuity, especially when the coach has continued to make major in-game mistakes late in the season.

Kitchens was promoted to head coach not because he was a great CEO type to run the operation. It was primarily because of his positive impact on Baker Mayfield and calling plays for the offense in the final eight games of 2018.

But there was a regression with Mayfield and the offense in 2019.

Not all the fault of Kitchens. But did he help it? As I wrote last week, he gave offensive coordinator Todd Monken very little responsibility when it came to shaping the offense. Kitchens refused to allow Monken a chance to call plays at any point, even when the offense stalled.

The players like Kitchens. They believe he is a good man. But do they respect him when it comes to matters of discipline?

From a barrage of penalties to some sideline outbursts between players and Kitchens, the team too often has had discipline issues.

I’m sure the Browns have seen the same problems.

That’s why I believe there will be a coaching change, but that’s not based on anything I know for sure.

ROOKIE COACHES CALLING PLAYS

I wondered how many rookie coaches also were controlling the offense?

The Chicago Tribune’s Teresa Walker had an answer in her excellent story about how the immediate success of Sean McVay with the Rams led to other teams letting first-year coaches call plays.

In addition to Kitchens, it’s happening in Cincinnati (Zac Taylor), Green Bay (Matt LaFeur) and Arizona (Kliff Kingsbury).

That’s four rookies doing it.

The results are mixed. The Browns are averaging 20.8 points, down from 22.4 a year ago. Here are the others: Cincinnati (16.4), Arizona (22.5) and Green Bay (23.5).

Lots of veteran coaches do it, including Sean Payton (New Orleans), Andy Reid (Kansas City), Mike Nagy (Chicago), Pat Shurmur (Giants), Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco), Adam Gase (Jets), Doug Pederson (Philadelphia) and McVay (Rams). There may be others, but the point is a lot of head coaches also serve as play-callers.

ONE & DONE

The last time the Browns fired a coach after one season was in 2013.

Rob Chudzinski was let go after ending the season on a 7-game losing streak. The final record was 4-12.

I favored keeping Chudzinski. He had terrible luck with quarterbacks. Brandon Weeden opened the season and was hurt. Then Brian Hoyer took over, won three games and blew out his knee.

Jason Campbell finished the season and Josh Gordon set team receiving records.

That season was when Trent Richardson was traded after two games. Willis McGahee ended up being main running, averaging 2.7 yards per game. That team had some talent, but terrible luck in terms of injuries.

These Browns did not face the same demanding circumstances.

THE FRONT OFFICE

As I’ve written, the front office took a gamble by bringing in Odell Beckham Jr. and Olivier Vernon from the New York Giants. Those trades didn’t pay off.

The offensive line needed at least one more viable starter. You can point to some other moves that were mistakes.

The front office gave a rookie head coach some very strong personalities to handle. Beckham is very strange in terms of his longing for attention and the impact that had on Kitchens and Mayfield.

Too often, they seemed preoccupied with getting him the ball rather than having a smooth operating offense. It’s an issue Kitchens or whomever coaches the team in 2020 will have to face. It’s also one created by the front office.

But I still like the John Dorsey front office. I want them to stay in place, but also stay away from too much risk-taking with character issues.

Furthermore, Dorsey pushed Kitchens as the head coach. That was his decision.

The other final candidate was Kevin Stefanski, who was the favorite of the analytics department.

Stefanski has had a good year calling plays for the Vikings. They are 10-5 and a playoff team. Stefanski could be a candidate for other jobs.

If the Browns do decide to change coaches, it would be interesting to see who leads the search and how it’s done.

But in terms of the big picture, the last thing the Browns need is to blow up everything from the front office to the coaching staff.

Dorsey has had more good drafts than bad, dating back to his time with the Kansas Chiefs. He deserves the chance to keep working on the roster.

IF THEY KEEP FREDDIE

If the Browns do keep Kitchens, I’m not sure what changes should be made.

Do they take away the play-calling, which was supposes to be best asset?

Hire a new defensive coordinator? Trade Beckham?

Certainly they need to draft linemen, on offense and defense. They need more discipline, they still rank No. 3 in penalties.

Every NFL teams loses a game or two that it shouldn’t, but the Browns have dumped three (Denver, Arizona and at Pittsburgh).

This season, the Browns have played a demanding schedule. They are 3-2 vs. team under .500 and 3-7 vs. teams over .500.