DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns: State of Affairs

Hey...............just wrote this on a word document in about 15 minutes. It probably has a ton of mechanical [grammar, punctuation, syntax, spelling, etc] mistakes. I left a lot out because I was in a hurry. My apologies. I didn't re-read it and I left a lot out. I also think that most of my commentary about the board was negative. Thus, I want to say this..........I did leave the board due to some of the posters who I found I could no longer co-exist with, but there are a ton of you who I either like or love. I also have a lot of respect for many of you. I miss talking and reading many of your posts. It was just time to move out of a bad neighborhood. We have posters who lie to win the argument. They post tweets from non-reputable folks to influence how others think on here. They bully. They lie. The truth is no longer important. It's about winning the argument. Sorry, but I will not be part of that culture.

Here is what I just wrote on the word document.

Browns: State of Affairs

You may or may not have noticed that I have not been posting on DawgTalkers for quite some time. The last straw for me was being attacked for posting actual stats w/out commentary. I am going to make this post and perhaps one on the State of Affairs for the entire league and that is it. I will not respond to any of the attacks or insults from the crew who has effectively made this board intolerable. I may check in from time-to-time and respond to PMs from those who actually want to have an intelligent conversation.


I have several topics I want to concentrate on. They are not listed in order of importance, although it might happen coincidentally. I have not been reading the board much but have checked out threads to get a feel for where the populace stands on various topics.

Baker: He was perhaps the biggest problem on the team. I have read on how his receivers are to blame. His OL is to blame. Freddie is to blame. The press is to blame. The fans are to blame. I think those are excuses from folks who bashed the hell out of people who questioned Baker. They can’t admit they might be wrong and are not being honest. Baker Mayfield had a horrible year. He may have been the worst starting qb in the league. I say that because he had more talent to work with than any other qb and he ranked near the bottom of the league in almost every statistical category.

The guy chose to “take time away from football.” He drank a lot. Did a ton of commercials. Did a lot of interviews. He did a couple of magazine interviews over days. He appeared on TV and radio shows. He said he would not work w/a “broom sweeper.” He ripped the UT qb, He ripped Daniel Jones. He called out a teammate over a business decision. He worked out one day w/his receivers. He thought “it would be easy.” His wife called Brown’s fans “front runners” and “idiots.” She called out the local media. Wonder where she heard that from? Baker had three different looks during the Denver game. Came to the game w/a full beard. Shave the beard and went to a fu Manchu for the game. Then shaved again after the game. Yet, folks rip OBJ for his choice of shoes? LMAO.
Here is the bottom line. Baker is an ass! It would be good if he could ball. But, the dude sucked. If you can’t ball, you don’t get the call.

I think he lost the locker room because of his off-season routine, his big-mouth, and his lack of production. I truly hope the Browns get rid of OBJ and Landry and promote dudes like Higgins and Njoku. I think the outcome will be far different from what the “experts” on this board think they will be.

Recently, he has come out and said something like he knows exactly what he needs to do to improve, but that he won’t hire a qb coach because of something to do w/the ocean.

Dude is far too arrogant!

I will end this segment by saying that I do not want to root for a team w/this guy as our qb. He’s exactly who I said he was.

Coaching: I never bought into the Freddie hire. I know that Baker lobbied for him. I get why he was hired. I just cautioned folks that he had never even been a coordinator before last year. It was a big jump. I didn’t know he would fail. I just wasn’t going to admit that he was “ready” like so many folks did. I repeatedly said that I would have a hard time defending him. [For those who don’t know, I have consistently been luke-warm to cold on coaches and later defended them after the masses have turned on them. Thankfully, I left the board before I had to defend him.

He was terrible. He deserved to be fired, although I will say it is hard to call plays when you have a qb who is primarily a one-read qb. I have read where people are saying that Freddie never improved over the course of the season. That is false. I am the person who started the thread about offensive scheme. I pointed out that 11 personnel and how we might be better suited to going to 12, 13, 21, and even 22 personnel. Freddie did adapt. He ran a lot of 12 and 14 personnel as the season progressed. He ran 21 personnel after Hunt came on board. He may have run 22 personnel as well, but I’m not sure. Bottom line, don’t believe the agenda dudes who say he never adapted. Oh……another thing……..11 personnel is run way more than any other package across the NFL. Go back and read my first post on Offensive Scheme. I gave a link to an article that breaks down the percentages of personnel packages across the league. So, Freddie wasn’t out-of-bounds by trying to run 11 personnel. He just didn’t have a smart qb and a dominating OL.

Freddie’s failure was he had a big mouth, little control over the egos, and wasn’t ready for the big stage. He needed more seasoning. His clock and game management were epic fails. The biggest fail however, was the team was embarrassingly undisciplined.

Offensive Line: No one will agree w/this, but I Know OL and that OL was not bad. They were average. Baker had a ton of time to throw. It’s not their fault that he folded like a cheap tent at the first sign of pressure. They were not great. They were average. I get that most won’t buy that, but I know more about OL’s than you do. I will leave it at that.

Defense: Not much to say. Too many injuries and losing Myles hurt. I don’t think they were a big part of the fail. I am not saying they were good……LOL……..just saying that I won’t point fingers at them in regards to blame.

Dorsey: He was by far the star of the franchise. Unfortunately, many of our fans and media continue w/this nonsensical “Regime Wars” line of thinking. From the perspective of people who are not Browns fans, but know the game [guys who played the game and/or are paid to analyze the game by the big boys] they were unanimous that the Browns had the worst roster in the league before he arrived and probably the best after just year two. And we fired him!!!! Let that sink in. Don’t be fooled by the agenda posters on here who continually fight that stupid regime war fight. This roster is loaded. In just two freaking years he turned it from a joke to a gold mine. He made some mistakes. He drafted Baker, but I can give him a pass on that because it’s hard to evaluate college qbs. On the other hand, he did everything he could to appease Baker and set him up to succeed. He fired Hue and Haley because the team was losing and Baker did not like them. He named Freddie the HC because that is who Baker wanted. He traded for and signed star talent to make Baker’s job easy. Hiring Freddie was a mistake, but damn man…………he goes from executive of the year to out of a job?

The New Guys: Glad the Analytical Guys are now back in charge. Think about this. Depo says Wentz was not a top 20 qb. That group had QB room of Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan. Their top 3 WRs were Britt, Coleman, and Ricardo Louis. They drafted a box safety who actually played LBer in college to play FS. They had scum corners. They traded up for Njoku. They cut Joe Haden right before the season after the HC and DC just praised him for being a leader on the team. They played hard ball w/Schwartz and lost him. They didn’t think Gipson was good enough even though he was around 26. He still started for the playoff alive Texans. Alex Mack was so disgusted by the direction of the team that he wanted out. They cut Tyler Gabriel and kept Jordan Payton. They got into a battle w/Hue about the top pick in the draft. They wanted to draft Trubiski number one. Hue wanted Myles and said he would not support Trubiski. The scum bags never even told Hue who they would draft. He found out on draft day. Hue called Watson and said they were going to draft him at 12. The analytics guys traded the pick. Hue covered for them. The analytics guys on here tell us how great Sashi/Depo/Berrry/etc are actually passed on Wentz, Mahomes, and Watson. They wanted Trubiski. They took Kizer and Kessler. Y’all feeling confident?

Ownership: Jimmy is scum! He stepped back last year and let Dorsey do his thing. Everyone and his brother [other than the Sashi lovers[ lauded the job Dorsey did. I truly believe that Depo [who is in San Diego…LOL] was in Jimmy’s ear all year and when things went south, he made his push.} Remember, this is the same scum bag who would not even tell his HC who they were drafting . Well, he won. As did the dumb ass fans and local media who keep playing this absurd regime-wars game. I know it sounds a bit odd, but I truly believe Jimmy listens to public perception and he continually is influenced by a group that has it wrong.

Bottom Line: I am totally disgusted by the path this team has taken. We had a great piece in Dorsey and we lost him. Instead, we are counting on a baseball guy who never won a damn thing and is in San Diego to be our visionary. We have a qb who I think is a low-life. Thus, I have decided to stop rooting for the team I have loved for over 50 years. I will return once we have new ownership and a new qb. I probably will not live that long. A dream that was never realized.

Post Script: Moving forward I see that certain folks are already talking about Jimmy being the reason if the next HC fails while saying that Depo’s group is the “smart” group and will give him credit if the next hires succeed. LOL…………Anyway, since I am no longer rooting for the Browns, I am hoping they hire Stefanski as HC and Berry as GM. Going to love to read their tap-dances after those two get their chance.

Who you rooting for?

Don't answer.

I believe the Play calling was the factor in the down fall of the OL and Baker.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good word document.

Yeah, if the reports about Monken are true, Freddie went rogue most weeks and ignored a majority of the game plan each week. That's tough to overcome.

Vers,

I always liked having you as an active poster. You gave as good as you got. However, you were a bit too sensitive, given that you hit others pretty hard and pretty frequently. Can't have it both ways.
As for your analysis, it is informative and insightful, as I would expect. Two quibbles: IIRC, you were a big Josh Rosen guy. He is the one QB of the bunch and he looks like the only clear dud. Baker may have had the best rookie QB year in history, so...
And on Dorsey, I loved the guy's moves, but he blew the biggest one and that was Freddie. That and his reported disdain for analytics probably meant he got what he deserved IMO.
Anyway, great read, thanks for posting and I genuinely hope you stay on the board. It won't be as aggravating if you have a thick skin and don't engage in too much of the 'gotcha' stuff with others. After all, we are all just fans. We get to be impulsive, change our minds, and love and hate our team all at the same time.

Like it or not, you were a major component of that culture. You're continuing to do it with some of your comments with this thread.

As for the football portion, I watched a 1hr special the other night featuring Brian Sipe, with a lot of footage from the Kardiac Kid days. Then I went and watched some footage from the Kosar years. I thought to myself, we are so far removed from that type of atmosphere, excitement and level of play that I almost cried. I'll bleed orange and brown until I die and not quit on my team, but I'm not holding out hope that we'll ever get back there. I was all in this past season and let down again.

I wish we had the social media options back then....can you imagine the Modell posts?

Welcome back.

I was thinking the team was a good offensive line from being complete ... now I'm done caring while Haslem and his knee jerks are in charge. No coach or GM is ever going to have enough time to build anything here.

We did have the original social media, bulletin boards, for the Kosar era. Nothing local for me was Browns related. I have no idea if the Cleveland area had any setup, as calling long distance for blazing speeds of 300 bauds of text scrolling across your screen was not really affordable in those days.

Baker: Baker certainly carries his share of the craptastic season. But strong, professional coaching and mentoring would have helped get/keep Bakers head on strait, and improve his on field performance.

Coaching: I understood some of the "pros" to hiring Freddie, but I didn't buy in to it either. I always felt it was too far a leap PLUS I'm not buying in to this "rookie HC and bringing in experienced OC/DC to mentor" nonsense anymore.

Offensive Line Statistically they may have been average, but for the first half of the season they were inconsistent from play to play in their pass blocking. I saw it way too many times but on one play someone breaks through on the right side, the next, someone breaks through on the left. I will say that they did get mostly more consistent the second half of the season. I think the lack of big, strong TEs able to contribute to the blocking severely limited us.

Defense: I'm not quite sure what to blame it on exactly. Wilks periodically was able to put together some fantastic defensive game plans when he didn't have all his pieces to work with, then other weekends absolute crap.

Dorsey: Oddly enough, what you laid out about Dorsey actually justifies his authority being limited. For now I'll come down on the side that he was able to bring legit talent to this team. But finding talent, finding talent that compliments each other, and finding a coach who can wrangle all that are 3 different things. Whatever his motivations for going with Freddie were, it shows he couldn't be trusted on that front.

The New Guys: I said it in another thread: maybe it's about time for the organization to finally get on board with what they hired DePo for. It's funny how you wanna skewer the analytics guys like DePo over the early days, you know, the days before he had actually begun to develop his system. The COrey Coleman pick was based on the analytic system that was in place prior to DePo's arrival. If anything it shows just how badly outdated or poor that system was.

You also have to look at the obvious recurring theme in the players they drafted during the tear down years. Statistically they were productive in college. Psychologically many of them had legit adversity in their lives to overcome and most of them were known as extremely dedicated to the sport.

These are exactly the types of players you want on your team when you plan on fielding a skeleton crew of talent.

Ownership: I'll refer to my comment about DePo. Maybe it's finally time to get on board with DePo was hired to do. Every time we start to have some success Jimmy gets antsy and tries to take a shortcut i.e. Dorsey and allowing the subsequent hiring of Kitchens. I've heard conflicting info that DePos contract is up this year and it's up next year (I may have heard the latter prior to Jan 1 so that may explain it). At this point if Jimmy hires a coach that isn't on board with what DePo is doing, if I were DePo I'd stop wasting my time.

It's not because I think DePo has all the answers and is the be all, end all. It's because having an organization where everyone is on the same page in terms of philosophy and goals is something that he said was required from the beginning. It's also something that this organization has not experienced for even a single season since DePo was brought in.


As far as whether or not you continue to root for the team? That's up to you. I'm certainly not going to chastise you for it. We all have our own limits. For me, as a cop, I didn't actually care about the whole kneeling thing so long as it didn't delay kick off. Freddie Kitchens inability to field a prepared team was caused me to find other things to do on Sundays. I think getting in to the whole "who's a good fan, who's a bad fan" is stupid. Whenever anyone goes that route I wish the refs would punish them by adding the moniker "BS Dawg" for a week. But that's just me.

I think a big, stout, TE who could block would have made a massive difference.

I have no problem with Jimmy canning someone when it becomes apparent that a) they aren't working and b) there's no clear indication that they will get better.

Having said that though, he could save himself the hassle on the front end by hiring the right person. I'll still posit that we have yet to have season where everyone is in alignment with the plan to rebuild/grow.

So sticking to the team thoughts and analysis:

- Baker is exactly who you thought he was, and you dislike him so much you can't root for the team with him at QB. As a 2nd year player you've pronounced him a bust. Having the worst HC and Offensive play caller in the NFL with other teams consistently telling the media they knew what plays we were going to run does not factor into Baker's bad play at all.

- Coaching: Baker lobbied for Freddie and Baker made it more difficult for Freddie to succeed. Looks like it was almost Baker that hired him and it's his fault Freddie sucked. Dang, we couldn't run the 11 personnel package because of Baker (but we sure as hell tried it a TON)

- OL was average and Baker had tons of time.

- Dorsey - A bright star who the fans and media apparently turned on? He fired Hue and Haley because of Baker ? His mistake you highlighted was drafting Baker - they guy with the rookie QB record?

I think it's safe to say there is a little bit of an agenda laced through these comments and opinions posted as facts. It's tempting to leave it at that.

Baker - was bad, being in is second year and having shown the potential in year 1 I think it's WAY too early to close the book on him. Does he need to improve - hell yes. Does he need to reinvent his media and interview persona? Only for fans that think that's more important than the results on the field. I believe he's been humiliated and humbled this year and will do what's necessary to succeed next year - and respond the same way he did throughout his collegiate career.

Freddie - I think Freddie was just flat overwhelmed and promoted too fast and well beyond his ability. I think he's probably a great guy and someone you'd want on your coaching staff - just not as the HC or even the OC. Whether he can learn to be a good OC? idk. Freddie owns his own performance as HC. The responsibility of hiring Freddie is on Dorsey 100%.

OL - I don't think the OL was average and Baker did not consistently have time in the pocket. He had plays where he had too much time - and he had plays when he was under pressure as soon as he had taken a 3 or 5 step drop back. I think PFF grades and stats probably reflect that. I know there was a stat about how good Chubb ran the ball but also how he was also one of the NFL leaders in being hit behind or close to the line of scrimmage - again indicating the OL not being stellar despite a great individual performance at RB by Chubb.

Dorsey - I don't see the great fan or media hate for Dorsey. I think the vast majority of fans wanted to keep Dorsey and thought that his mistake of hiring Freddie was forgivable. It looks to me like Haslam wanted to reduce Dorsey's role - and that was the issue, and nothing at all to do with any fans or media. I think Dorsey fired Hue because Hue was monumentally bad and will go down in history as one of the very worst coaches in the history of the NFL. I think he fired Haley because Haley was not a positive influence on the team.

Sorry your not a fan anymore and are clearly actively rooting against the Browns succeeding - but to be honest I think that has been the case ever since they drafted a QB that stuck his team's flag in the middle of the Buckeye's logo. jmo.

Any chance u can Breakdown bake’s play for us please?

He’s the key piece going forward and the only “known” going forward ...

KJ will b missed ... I’m stunned at how many of the dolts think one bad HC hire is a reason for dismissal especially when u look at the entire body of work ...

MIND-BOGGLING ... and that’s beind kind ...

How many is it? I don't think I have seen more than 2 posters suggest Dorsey deserved firing.

If its truly that MIND BOGGLING maybe you shouldn't be referring to others as dolts.... there's plenty of examples in this day and age of people who do great work in their fields, but have it all come crashing down with a monumentally poor decision. Its really not that hard to understand.

But who cares if anyone thinks Dorsey should have been fired over Freddie? Dorsey wasn't fired. He MONUMENTALLY screwed up his first HC hire, a hire that wasted an entire season.

Dorsey didn't have to leave. He only had to become a team player. Had he stuck around he could have earned the confidence to make another HC hire in the future if such a thing was needed.

Its interesting. We talk all the time about coaches in the NFL that are great OCs and DCs, but just don't have it to be a great HC. And that's ok. In fact, its probably better for those guys that they recognize that limitation. They go on to have successful careers and spend very little time unemployed. So why isn't it possible that John Dorsey's ceiling may simply be that of a great player talent evaluator?

menZas work bettor for U ...

No matter what Vers says, (I believe) he is and always will be a Browns fan. What is he going to do, root for Pittsburgh? We all get so damn mad that we swear them off, but we don't really stop rooting for them. None of us can quit the Browns. We've invested too much to not be there when it finally happens.

J/C

Does anyone know how he knows Baker "drank a lot". Baker played like crap, I don't think shaving his mustache is the reason for it.

I agree with much and disagree with much. lol

Baker - It is well known you don't like him and never liked him. And it is my opinion that your bias shows in your evaluation. Not so much in understanding that he was a part of the problem...But in evaluating the extent. I agree that he was a problem this year. But not quite in the same way. Let's ignore the WR and OL issues for a second...I think the NFL got the book together on Baker and he, as well as we, did not do enough to overcome that. He did not adjust well or maybe as quickly as we wanted.

You know, as far as the year he had...I have to go back to Drew Brees. Drew's first 2 years(playing...yr 1 he sat behind Flutie) were not that great but he did show promise. Over the 2 years he threw more INT's than TD's. The Charger's drafted a potential and as it turns out an eventual, replacement 2 years before his shoulder injury. Baker has been similar. I think everyone just assumed he would put up Manning/Brady in their prime type numbers. Especially when adding OBJ, etc. But he is not in his prime yet. People shouldn't expect him to be.

You say he lost the locker room but there is no evidence of that. I did not see OBJ and Kitchens yelling at Baker. I saw them yelling at Kitchens (and not about Baker). I think he was correct when he said he decided to sit back and let OBJ and Landry take more leadership in the Offense and that was the wrong decision.

I do think that his Commercials and outside activities impacted his performance. Not nearly in the way you suggest. But more in the way that he thought he had things figured out...and the NFL proved him wrong. Now he is getting an idea of what is taking away from what...JJ Watt, Aaron Rogers, Patrick Mahomes, and many others do a lot of commercials and charity work and have a lot of outside activities. They learned where the line is, and Baker will too. You act as if he felt these commercials and such are more important to him than football. If you truly think that...You truly are biased. He is not Johnny Manziel.

You don't like his personality...and you make many assumptions off of that.

OL - The OL sucked this year. Especially on the outside. But we also did not help them out much this year. Last year we found a lot of success in the 12 formation. We barely touched that formation this year and left Robinson and Hubbard out on islands. Neither are good enough to do that. We had a revolving door at RG...( I am hoping Drew Forbes can step up) I don't think we realized how much Zeitler hid Hubbard's deficiencies.

WRs - It is now known that OBJ and Landry barely practiced during the weeks with their respective injuries. How on earth are they to build timing and chemistry if they don't get the reps? That disconnect was quite evident. Then wa position that was a glutton of resources, became bare and we were relying on UDFA's and practice squad players. How do we allow that to happen???

Playcalling - I think it was incoherent (to be polite). It was clear that Kitchens was over his head. And his game planning was sorely lacking. He not only disrespected opponents with his T-shirt selection, but even more so with his game planning.

You combine all of the above and it does not make for a great offense.

Defense - Yes, injuries hurt. Yes, missing Garrett hurt. But you are giving them way too much leeway. That does not explain the lack of tackling. That doesn't explain a DLine that was supposed to destroy opposing OLines to only look like kittens (even when Garrett was in). And then we treated them just like the WR's and in the end we were relying on UDFA's and practice squad players. The defense was at best inconsistent.

Coaching - Discipline, Discipline, Discipline....Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals...we head neither...This falls on coaching. Add into it poor game planning and WOW what a mess.

Dorsey - We lost a good man and a good GM. There is no doubt. But he was far from infallible. Yes he turned a bad one into a loaded one. And then he proceeded to dismantle it. Baker did not make him deplete our WR's and DLine. Baker did not make him fire Hue and Haley. (in fact I think Haslem pushed for firing Haley as well as it was rumored Haley was promised to take over for Hue should he fail. The only place that promise could come from was Dorsey) Baker did not make him hire Kitchens. For a great executive, he certainly doesn't have a lot of balls if he is going to let Baker push him around like that. And we know that is not the case. Dorsey was in charge..PERIOD. Your hatred of Baker clouds you in your eval. The reason he is out of a job is because the Browns and Dorsey could not come to an agreement on a new power structure. They "mutually parted ways". What part of mutual don't you get?

You take on analytics is completely off base. You give them for too much power. There is so much supposition there. Many of the moves you described was about acquiring the draft capital which Dorsey used. You give Dorsey quite a bit of praise for that. Some of them were missed opportunities. Particularly Schwartz. But you act as if DePodesta was running wild with the keys to the team. The reality is yes they had discussions and even disagreed on things...But the Analytics team did not make all of the calls. In fact they made NONE of the calls. All of the calls were made by people like Sashi Brown and Ray Farmer (and Haslem) Haslem and analytics may have had an influence, but so did the coaches. It is on Brown and Farmer if they relied on on side or the other too much for your taste.

I understand the hate for Jimmy...He has made a ton of mistakes. And his rep over the scandal with his Truck stops certainly gives someone pause. But my God do you let your emotions cloud your emotions. Nothing but assumptions and nothing tangible to back back up that eval.

I get it...the ineptness, this organization has shown, over the past 20 years, has me to the end of my rope as well. But geez...You basically describe angels and demons with no middle ground. And you do so based upon assumption and emotion.

Take a step back. Take a deep breath. and Go Browns!!!

Interesting read, thanks for posting. I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it, and other spots I can kind of see where you're coming from, but it's a bit over the top.

I am skeptical of where this franchise is going, mostly because I have so little faith in Haslam to get this thing right. We'll see.

Agree with the poster who said that you hit others pretty hard too and have to expect that in return, or something to that effect.

Where did you get that bit about Baker drinking a lot? Genuinely curious. I got that impression too but it was just that-- an impression. This wasn't a Johnny Manziel thing where he'd show up on TMZ or Deadspin every other day. Regardless, Baker does have to take things more seriously in the offseason going forward. Can't expect to just show up and dominate at this level.

I think you skipped over some of the dysfunction in the offense that wasn't Baker's fault. For example, OBJ couldn't even get himself lined up properly all the time even late into the season. That throws a wrench into the entire offense.

Also, deep down you probably already know this, but you are here to stay. You can stop posting for a while, but you can't just not root for a team after 50 years. The door closed behind you, my friend.

See you around!

He wasn't dismissed. Things were going to change in structure and John couldn't agree. Both sides then decided a mutual split was in order.

I think he is referring to the shotgunning of the beer at the Indians Game...

....

Yeah, I don't get the drinking a lot assertion. I mean, there are plenty of unsubstantiated stuff about Baker thrown around, but even that didn't come up.

Freddie did adapt some, but not nearly enough. And even assuming an extremely adaptable coach, the offense that we came out with for the Titans game pretty much doomed the season. There's only so much you can adapt when you start with an offense that's pretty much custom-designed to highlight your main players' weaknesses.

I haven't heard anything about drinking

but he is pudgy and could not do that Shirtless/ Tiger / Rolls Royce photoshoot today

I try to keep my opinions / speculation to myself (I do give some credence to the thought he was drowning his sorrows) but the end result is exactly what we heard when Freddie was fired - This kid needs to be coached hard and challenged (that's why an [censored] like Josh might really get the most out of Baker)

regarding Browns state of affairs - 90% of NFL heads would say (while he needs work) we have a QB

I do agree Baker was disapointing this year but we know he can play a lot better because we saw it his rookie year.
Kitchens did Baker no favors with his play calling and not coaching him hard.
At this stage in his career and with our running backs Baker should be a game manager. Kitchens called plays like he had Drew Brees. Baker needs reeled in until his dicision making improves.
I agree OBJ needs traded but not Landry. This team needs less me players and more team players. Same rules for everyone.
Team discipline was a joke this year because we had no leaders.
I do not agree that the oline was average. They were below average. Our tackles are terrible and our right guards were a revolving door.
Defensively we were lacking even when Garrett played. Randle needs to go, Greedy struggled, I felt Mitchell should have started. Our dline did not play as expected either.
Dorsey brought in talent at the expense of charactor and team chemistry plus he hired Kitchens. He dug his own grave.
We need to get a coach who can teach and handle Baker plus establish discipline along with a team 1st culture.
Who that guy is I don't know but I hope they can get it right.

Welcome back Vers nice to see you posting again! I agree with most of what you say not all. I think Baker can be a good QB but he has to start working at it along with his teammates. A lot went into our lousy season, bad coaching, injuries, a not so good O-line and poor discipline. If we get the right coach and can fill our weaknesses in FA and the draft I believe we can contend for that playoff spot in "20. We still have a good foundation we just have to make the right moves and build on it.

That is the popular myth that has been spread around on this board, but nothing close to what Depo and others were saying at the time. I mean I don't expect facts to matter on this board much anymore but I do think you are one of the posters open minded enough to listen to them.

Here is what Hue and Depo were actually saying after the Corey Coleman pick. So we can go with the rumors or we can take it straight from the horses mouth.

If John Dorsey whiffed on the Mayfield pick and whiffed on the Freddie Kitchens hire, why is he still considered a superstar? Everyone knows that if you whiff on the first overall pick you are toast.

A little early to say he whiffed on Mayfield. First year encouraging. Last year not so much.

Definitely whiff on HC hire, however.

I was referring the premise in the original post:



So he blew the first overall pick on a QB, according the above statement, but was the "star of the franchise". Those two things don't jive.

Is Jerry Jones a joke or not? Daniel Snyder?

I just want to be sure because I thought they were jokes and I don't want to look foolish.

I don't know. Maybe you should compare the Cowboys record over the past 20 years compared to ours.

Haslam is the biggest joke. Anyone who has read several of my posts know I think that. That doesn't mean there aren't little jokes out there too.

(The Cowboys record over the last 20 years is 168-152, not terrible but definitely not great either.)

Jimmy didn't have a slumber party to lure McCarthy. Fatal error!

What if the Browns don't want McDaniels. Your premise seems to indicate it's McDaniels or bust (maybe I'm not reading you correctly).

Oh I certainly agree it isn't great. I just don't feel it falls into the joke category.

I don't think Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder belong in the same category, honestly.

There are plenty of people that have gone on the record about how toxic the Redskins franchise is, from the Shanahans to Trent Williams, and others inbetween.

Jerry Jones meanwhile, has actually run a competent franchise over in Dallas. I'm not saying it's great, and they get a lot more limelight than they deserve, but they've had some winning seasons and made it to the divisional round of the playoffs a few times in recent memory. They gave Jason Garrett 9 years there, which was.. generous. They just hired a former Super Bowl winning coach. It's not all bad there even if Jerry does meddle too much.