DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Football guys did half the job, now it's up to numbers boys to finish the job...

I’m kind of a broken record on this point the last few weeks but will say it again. The Titans are the blue print we should be following. Fundamental football: blocking and tackling. Our OL and front 7 need to be as good as any in the league and there should be a major coaching emphasis on blocking schemes, and blocking and tackling execution. All the best analytics driven teams seem to put fine point on this. We sucked resoundingly at both last year and I would contend that blocking and tackling schemes and execution are what doomed us more than any other factors.

As much as has been said about it being a passing league in the last decade I’m seeing a shift among many of the best and smartest teams (analytics heavy teams), to a run-first approach. Look at how many marginal QBs were relevant in the playoffs this year. Can’t say that any will turn into Super Bowl winners but the point is when the team operates from that base, the QB’s dominance is less vital and they frankly look much better.

To your point... we have many of the skill players needed already. We desperately need to shore up the lunch pail crew and good coaching in the scrum. I was much less optimistic last year than most of you because I knew the OL was a major Achilles heal that everyone down plays and rose colors in the off season. What I didn’t know was the DL would be as inconsistent as they ended up being. Coupled with our very marginal LBs and poor tackling DBs, our needs this year are much clearer to me than they are in most years.

Another way to see our recent past is that most probably the number guys have done a good job, the problem has been the football guys, specially the Head Coach...

I think losing Dorsey mas a major blow, but I can't see any successful team run by a GM, the way he was trying to do.

PFF is starting to get personal opinions in the middle of their analysis,which isn't a good thing.

Florio...who cares. Bloviating talking heads.

I'm not sure that a guy who has stuck through a number of regime changes AND continued to climb the Vikings ladder can be so awful. I don't know who is whose pal and what axe they have to grind or why. Wont try to figure it out either...

Onward I guess...

That's some good points Mac.

We do have the underpinnings of a pretty good team. We are missing a few pieces.

But really, it's going to take someone that can bring it all together.

Too damn many penalties last year. No Discipline. It was almost like this team didn't respect Kitchens..

So, whoever is hired (stefanski now)that has to be priority 1.

Anyone with two eyes and a brain could see that Freddie Kitchens was as bad a HC as we have had since our reincarnation. Then you add in that Dorsey was pulling all the strings to an outrageous extent and the purge began.

I just hope we aren't going back to trading out of Desean Watson and Patrick Mahommes caliber picks for Jabrill Peppers. I like Analytics on gameday but I really don't need another David Njoku, young, measurables off the charts.....can't block or catch a cold.

Keep analytics to gameplans and situational football. Keep it out of the draft room. The only analytics that should be discussed are "we like this player on tape, do his measurables translate to the NFL". Seems like the converse has been the case.....he can't catch or block, but look at those measurables, that is what I don't want anymore. Peppers and Njoku are perfect examples of analytics busts.

I fully expect us to trade down from 10 this year. Book it.

You have to remember that Mike Florio is a huge Vikings fan and has been critical of every move that ended up positive for them over the last year. He was also prettly sure we were going to be great last year while many of us had grave doubts.

He’s pretty butt-hurt over their loss but honestly they got farther than I thought they’d get. I thought they would get smoked by the Saints. I have no idea if Stafansky is going to be any good and neither does he. Unlike the Kitchens hire I like the logic behind this hire but execution is everything. We just have to see.

Haslam stressed in his Jan 2 presser about how they needed to build a cohesive HC/FO unit. McDaniels coming in and saying "I need this/that, and this is how it's gonna be" probably doomed him despite him being Haslam's favorite.

Then there's Stefanski, who has shown he's able to work with many and work well. After all the "football guys" throwing elbows and causing discord, he wants more people that can play nice. I can understand this hire, if this is the intent.

I think he's also always wanted to have this type of setup, but just brought in the wrong people on round 1 (Sashi and Hue). Sashi had very little football knowledge, and Hue didn't seem to have any interest in an analytics approach. Assuming we get our guy for GM, we'll have the same analytics backbone, but with people with a better blend of experience in our hires.

For me, it all comes down to Stefanski's leadership and coordinator hires.

Honestly if there is one coach I want someone to learn how to be a leader of men from, there are very few on that list above Mike Zimmer.

In business, you need people that are willing to challenge you, you need people that are willing to stand up to you when your wrong, and call you out.

Having a Yes Man will not produce results. Who has say over the roster, who has say over the draft, who has say over depth chart?

Depo, Jimmy, the soon to be named GM, the HC?

What they say they want is all nice and dandy, until actual decisions need to be made. Then, it will just another power struggle as each person will want "their guy".

You need a cohesive FO/HC, yes, but you also need someone with the final say that knows what the hell they are doing. Haslam wants people that are just going to hold his main organ and tell him how wonderful he is.

Chris Simms was on McDaniels 2009 Broncos team. Josh let him keep collecting an NFL paycheck when his career was winding down (more like already flatlined). Simms didn't play again after McDaniels was let go by the Broncos.

PFT's people have more agendas than posters on here, which is saying something.

I said this in another thread but a big part of analytics In sports isn’t even about players. It’s about measuring the evaluators. Not just their hits and misses over time but specifics about their biases, strengths by position group or player types, projections etc etc. It can be very valuable for drafting when a GM or personnel chief knows how to calibrate the assessments and properly baseline the myriad reams of data coming in. I don’t know if this been done in the past here but I deeply suspect it wasn’t with the last crew. I personally like good data and would welcome it

I believe we should ask why they only achieved half and how this in-house process became adversarial. We seem to be willing and eager to fuss over issues that are not on the field on game day. Hope we get around to that soon. Vital.

I think I prefer a guy who can work well with others over an "I'm driving the bus" guy.

I still have things I'm not sure about ("doubts") with Stefanski, but being able to work with others doesn't make one a yes man.

If Jimmy's ever going to become a "football guy," he's going to have to be around football people. It seems he can't help himself from being involved, so he might as well learn as much as he can.

Stefanski seems to be a constant learner and is willing to adapt. Maybe Haslam will actually listen to a coach he thinks is smarter than (maybe only as smart as) he is.

I'm a little concerned about all the ownership meetings, but depending on the direction that the information is flowing they could be a good thing. Stefanski saying this is what you can do to help, good. Haslam dictating, bad. Stefanski saying this is what happened and this is what we are doing about it, fine.

The meetings might actually help him to organize his thoughts and plan things out in more detail which could be a good process to have anyways.

With regards to leadership, there is more than one way to lead. We'll see how Stefanski's version works. I think his demeanor will actually help with the game management aspects that our more excitable coaches had struggled with.

Build the OL and finish the DL.

I agree. Freddie seemed to get stuck on various plays. I think the approach they take this year will help prevent that.

I agree we have more work to do on the defensive side of the ball. If we improve the O-line, I think we have the players to score points. Now we need to start to limit points. We just don't have as many impact players on that side of the ball.

It wouldn't bother me on bit if we didn't draft anybody who runs the ball, catches the ball, or throws the ball. Just go for players who block or defend.

amen

Ditto... but, adding a single TE that runs, catches, and BLOCKS like Kittle would pay massive dividends to a revamped and improved OLine.

If that can be had in Free Agency, so much the better... then we can get this defense where it needs to be, which requires someone as fearsome as Garrett to be opposite of him.

Since I want to address the take position first, I'd much rather get a tight end via FA.

I'd also go for a FB with versatility (Marcel Reece used to play for the raiders)

I would be shocked if we didn't end up with a fullback on the roster. The problem is that's it hard to find a good one because no one uses a fullback in college. There are five total fullbacks listed as free agents on Over the Cap.

R

I would be shocked if we do get a FB. A TE has more versatility, and we have Chubb and Hunt who block well for one another.

If we are truly running the Shanahan/Kubiak offense then we will have a fullback.

If Austin Hooper hits the market he's a guy I'd go after.

Hunter Henry should be considered as well.

When’s the last time you called out your boss? Do you stay employed?

"Tact is the ability to tell someone 'Go to Hell' in such a manner as to make them anticipate the trip."

-- Winston Churchill


I call out or turn down direction from my boss regularly if it doesn't make sense. The key is in how you do it. You explain your misgivings, you ask for clarifications, you present alternatives that accomplish the same goals without the misgivings, you speak without being confrontational or offensive, etc...

Literally this morning. That's why we have weekly meetings and calls. To go over strategy, marketing, updates, etc.

If I feel a position is incorrect, its my duty as a leader to state what I see, why I see it, and present any information to the contrary of their opinion.

As my leader, it is her job to take my insight, consider it, and make a decision. Sometimes she agrees, other times she doesn't.

THAT is a true collaborative effort. I have called my boss out several times when they were wrong. I have even called out my CEO once. Respectfully obviously, but my opinion was made, taken into consideration and then acted upon.

I feel sorry for those that do not work in that environment.

The problem with this org. is that Jimmy takes what one person says, then another person, then another person. He doesn't CONSIDER everything. He picks a favorite flavor of the week, rides that opinion or that person until they are wrong, then axes them and goes to the next guy. All they while, giving Jimmy the ability to say "well its his fault, but I got the right people now"

Im gonna let you in a little secret. We have hired and fired a lot of good people, GMs and coaches. They were not the problem, the organization and structure is the problem.

Heck, the US military breeds its NCO's to do this very thing for its young Ensigns and Lieutenants.

A leader that doesn't take feedback isn't a leader, it's a dictator - and those ALL get deposed. You don't have to follow their advice, but the wise leader absolutely will listen and consider the things brought up. A big part of leading is doing exactly that and still pushing through, and getting your subordinates to buy into, a course of action that the others dislike or may not agree with because you see more of the big picture than they do (and they may not be able to see).

1000% agreed.

The best leaders are the ones that know where their weaknesses are, and surround themselves with those that are strong in those areas and weigh their advice heavily as that is their specialty.

EXACTLY. Jimmy literally doesn't know what he doesn't know. He needs to stay in his lane (marketing) and let the football guys run the team. Until Jimmy does this, nothing will change long term. Of course, Jimmy being the arrogant jackass that he is, will not change. The Browns will continue to be the out of control dumpster fire that they are.

I do hope that those of you spending money on this dumpster fire can summon the necessary discipline to stop doing so. Watch them on TV and be done with it.

At this point, I dont even care if its the depo crew, or the football guys that get the say - I just want a solid structure and go from there. We are in this ever rounding battle of "whos at fault" because NO ONE knows who is who in this organization, no one knows who is whos boss, or who reports to who. Its a constant power struggle in the building, and its not going to change.

KS might be a great football coach.

If this structure doesn't change, he will not succeed.

Playoffs? say what?

Not with this we won't:



There is no way any coach is going to succeed with some knucklehead stats moron meddling in the coaches headset demanding certain plays be called. Playcalling is going to be influenced by a baseball manager...one that ruined the Dodgers mind you.

Add in Haslam increasing his meddling in the football operations by demanding hours long Monday meetings with the coach to go over his game plans and give his "expert" football opinions on what KS should do...you kidding me?

This dysfunction will probably be worse than what it was with Sashi Brown, add in Mr. Assistant 0-16/1-31 in Andrew Berry and well...you get where this is going.

this is the most dysfunctional thing I have ever seen or ehad out of the Browns and boy have i witnessed some dysfunction over the years...

I have hammered this decision so far, but to be fair. . .

I dont think Depo is going to be involve in the actual play calling. I do think he will have input with his numbers on certain plays, and when and what times they would be useful to call, but I dont think hell have a headset on and telling the play caller (whomever that is) when and what to call. If that is the case though, this will fail faster than I thought.