DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Football guys did half the job, now it's up to numbers boys to finish the job...

You have a strange way of coming up with what you call facts.

I asked for evidence of it and you supplied it. And even when you did, one of the two teams you listed he didn't even interview for at all.

I expect you to use the term 'Moneyball' all 2020 long.

We'll see.

How about you explain what Moneyball is to the group and how Depo plans to utilize it for the Browns?

He's looking for a gold glove shortstop, with an arm, who can hit with power and bat .285, for less than a million per year.

Combined with a strong +/- on the court!

Well that's great to hear, because as we know, top level execs would never mince words or let on that maybe we didn't get the guy that we were ultimately after, unless that was the case.

Agreed. But didn't we all figure was Andrew Berry was the guy all along? I'm guessing George Paton was able to sniff that out as well.

Him being reported as the front-runner earlier on than Paton would support the theory they wanted him all along. I don't know if I totally buy it, though. I think Berry was their guy until they talked to Paton.

I haven't seen any information that would give me that impression. Why do you think that?

Based on how all the early reports were about Berry coming back, and then Paton and Paton's second interview. Then back to Berry once Paton stepped back.

Completely a gut feeling based on the above. That's what I think.

I knew it wouldn't be long for that gauntlet to be thrown.

I expect it two. I am not going to demand people be fired if it doesn't happen.

Freddie had to go. I am sorry Johnny Boy couldn't understand why Haslam wouldn't simply allow him to pick the next coach.

Maybe they liked both, and wanted to discuss it a bit longer. Paton said he needed to know, and they demurred. He pulled his name. Happens all the time in business.

New coaches,new systems,new players.
6-10 will be more like it.

Who knows? It doesn't really matter. I am totally happy with Berry. He is qualified.

I’m fine with him. Just pointing out that it could have been a much more mundane situation than people think.

Maybe.

Maybe the new coaches command more respect? Maybe a new system makes more sense to the players? We need some new players. We have a lot of holes in the roster. Maybe it goes 9-7 or 10-6.

but I wonder if you'd call it "They were right all along"?

I'm a little late checking in but I wanted to touch on your point about the post Corey Coleman pick made by DePo...

Even if DePo is towing the company line and making the statement because it's what everyone says about the players they picked, I would agree that if he's going to say it, he also has to take some ownership of that.

BUT I also think you have to be careful how much weight you put on a statement everyone makes about the guy they just drafted in light of the factthat DePo had been with the organization just under 5 months by that time.

Did we draft Coleman based off a system DePo implemented within that short time frame? We don't know.

Did DePo largely take an observatory role to see how the analytical system we already had in place perform? We don't know. ** again, we can't take the new guy making the unified, public statement every team makes about every player as direct evidence as to just how much that pick was at his direction**

Or was the Coleman pick a combination of what was in place and some preliminary changes or tweaks made by DePo? We don't know, but I think common sense would say probably.

In any event I think it reasonable to assume that the system in place today is not the same as what netted us Coleman.

Personally I think it's a much stronger argument to admit that Coleman checked the statistical boxes that made him a numbers pick, but his failure is an example that the system or concept isn't perfect by any stretch. AND such a cautionary tale could be used to press the numbers guys to explain a bit more about why they think what they are doing has legitimacy.

I'm not sure if Corey Coleman was a bad pick, or if we were just a terrible spot for him.

QB situation: RGIII and McCown were both injured in the first 2 weeks of his rookie season. The next year the QB room was Kizer, Hogan, and Kessler.

His WR room mentors were Josh Gordon and Kenny Britt.

Hue was his head coach.

Throw in a couple broken hands, and that's a recipe for... what we witnessed.

Man, makes me wonder what might have been if there hadn't been that earthquake during RGIII's workout. Or if he and McCown had simply stayed healthy.

I wonder how much Hue's belief in RGIII factored into passing on Wentz.

CoCo definitely has some responsibility for how things turned out. I can't help but think they may have turned out differently if he'd landed somewhere else, with a better support system.

As much as anything, I think that's where we've struggled. Not necessarily evaluating talent, but evaluating fits and the surrounding environment players will need to succeed. We also could do a better job developing "player leaders" within the team/position groups. Landry would have been nice for Coleman to have.

Excellent point.

... and evaluating talent. We sucked at that too.

That sounds pretty good if you refuse to factor that he then went to the Giants and laid an egg there too.

He had a stay in Buffalo, as well ... but they cut him prior to the season. That cost them a 7th rounder, IIRC.

One thing that cracks me up is how many say, "He was a projected first rounder". My question is, "Projected by who"?

A lot of people listen to these supposed draft gurus on TV and the internet as if their word really means something. And often they get the very obvious talent right in regards to the draft. Yet every year we see players they have projected in the first round fall.

The reality is there are only 32 NFL GM's that have the final say about which players are actually projected first rounders. Unless of course your team is ran under the Kumbaya system where everyone makes a unified pick. You know where three different people report to the owner and nobody really knows who the hell the boss is or who actually has final say.

Coleman was a bust just like Braby Edwards was a bust, just like Couch was a bust....and that is just our team. All teams have them.

The problem we have is we have never had a group together long enough to allow them to recover from a blown pick. I am not just talking about under Haslam.

I guess that has a lot do do with my point here. Every GM..... I'm kind of hesitant to use that term anymore because we don't even know who the hell makes the final call around here anymore.... but let's just say GM, has hits and misses.

Where the problem comes in is when people try and dismiss and deny someone as having been a part of making said mistake. That's what keeps happening with Depo and the Coleman pick. Even after a direct quote from Depo saying he was a part of and in agreement with the pick. The fact he made a mistake isn't a problem. Hell they all make mistakes. The only problem is what seem to be almost his worshipers won't man up and admit it. It's hilarious!

You always get excuses for either the hires or their history and responsibility for said history.

Like the hiring of Berry. Paton was given the second interview and decided to pull out of the process. The Browns didn't select Berry out of the two choices. He was the choice left to them after Paton pulled out.

Now you have some Yahoo guy on Twitter who has no ties to the team claiming to have some "inside scoop". Yeah, every local and national reporter didn't know a thing about it and this guy has the scoop.

People will overlook direct quotes from people and an obvious chain of events to try and twist the narrative into what they want it to be.

I have been pretty lockstep with you since the firings/hirings and how I hate this setup and structure they have created. you know that. I have been probably the strongest voice against that setup since we have gone back to it.

But, to play devils advocate - for every bust the numbers guy had (Coleman for instance) we have had double those amounts of bust by football guys.

How many great picks did Holmgren make?
How many great picks did banner/Lombardi make
Scheiner?

Phil was probably the only football guy that we had that had decent drafts.

All have failed here, football guys and number guys so far.

I'm on board with Berry being our first choice. I believe unequivocally that Stefanski and Berry were the top choices of Depodesta. Following the interviews of Paton it was said everyone in the building preferred Berry to Paton.

The problem, as I explained, is people tend not to own up to that. And no, the numbers guys haven't been any better. If they had been, they would have been running things before now.

Let me pose a common sense question here. If Depo and the numbers guys were so good, why, after Sashi was fired, did Haslam hire a football guy to run the team rather than numbers guys who you say had been better at it? If the numbers guys were doing so great, Dorsey would never have been hired. We're just going back to it because that's the only remaining choice at this juncture. Whether it will be better or not is anyone's guess.

We are going down the same path we did before. Three guys all reporting to Haslam. That failed the last time it was tried. It doesn't mean it will fail. Just that there is a track record. We have a GM who has never been a GM before. We have a HC who has never been a HC before.

None of this means it won't work. What it does mean is that this is an experiment of people moving up in roles they've never filled before.

I think many of us hoped that with a first time HC you would surround him with an experienced staff and FO to give him a strong support system.

But many posters seem to change like the direction of the wind. Wade Phillips was a hire many expected and supported for that exact experience factor I suggested. Until it didn't happen.

First they liked the idea of the Berry hire. A 32 year old running a franchise. Then suddenly everything changed and all were on board with the Paton hire. Until suddenly he pulled himself out of contention. With that announcement, he suddenly turned into a guy who used us as leverage to get more money in Minnesota, a guy afraid to make the leap and not who we wanted anyway.

You can't make this crap up. It seems many posters on this board are like the weather in Ohio. If the facts don't appear to be peaches and cream, just stick around for 10 minutes and the narrative will change to make it appear so.

Yeah, it was said on Twitter by someone who has no known ties to the Browns. Every Browns beat reporter and and the national media didn't have a clue. But when the narrative follows what you want to believe.....

I felt Heckert did a decent job.

Andrew Berry is a football guy. He is also a data guy.

"The one that will bring balance to the Force"