DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mack Wilson

Because of his contract status, there is a lot of talk about Schobert. Will he stay?, how will we replace him if they don't reach a deal?, etc.

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I thought Wilson looked pretty good for an under-aged rookie, and I expect that with a full year and off-season, he will be better this year.

Since I haven't seen any more experienced talent evaluators around here give their opinions, I'm asking for them now. How good are we expecting Mack Wilson to be this year and going forward?

If you don't keep homegrown talent like Schobert, who do you keep? I think a reasonable deal is in the Browns best interest.

I thought Wilson flashed at certain spots over the course of the season but still think he has a ways to go. Not sure of the playing time he will get if Schobert is sign and if the team decides to keep Kirksey.

Every new FO that we've hired in January is faced with the same uphill battle, whether the pending FA is homegrown or not. Once the season is over and the player hits that new year, the market becomes more and more enticing to test and see where they stand re: value. Perhaps it is even more enticing for the agent who is also whispering in his ear and would like that big pay day as well.

The perfect scenario would have been to extend him some point last year to a reasonable deal, but according to reports, from what I recall, that was not even considered.

I guess the fall back would go to Mack and a couple other younger guys and possibly Kirksey, but even if Berry was part of the group that drafted Joe, I think with FA just around the corner it makes it more difficult to get something locked in, IMO. Although, it has happened before just before FA. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised because I'd like Joe to stay long-term.

We didn't extend Schobert because Dorsey wasn't all that high on the guy.

I think Berry will want to sign him, but with FA here you never know what another team might offer him. I guess it will boil down to what we are willing to spend v what some other team is willing to spend.

I like Schobert, but he isn't all that great, especially against the run.

Mack was one of the worst rated LB in the NFL last year, he's not a schobert replacement by any stretch.. Mack played way more than he should have. He's going to be better this year for sure, but if you're hitching your wagon to him as a reason to allowing Schobert to walk then we are going to be in a bad way. I don't think schobert will get as much as he thinks..hes just average overall. LB's hurt last year.. I think we address both FA/draft. I think if the price is ok you bring back Joe. He's a team guy and after last year, its obvious we need more of those guys

.

I liked what I saw from Wilson in flashes - especially in coverage. I thought as a LB his coverage and athleticism was very good. In stopping the run he definitely looked lost on many occasions. Hoping for a big step forward with the time he was given to play.

Schobert is interesting as I think he's very good - but he doesn't always get high grades. But if he is the glue and leader for the D - it would be very important to retain him. I hope we do.

Just a guess, but I bet you that our new DC will want us to keep him

Wilson was a steal. He'll only get better., I don't want to lose Shobert, but Cap Space hints at Wilson and Taki-Taki being the future.

According to PFF Mack Wilson was one of the worst linebackers in the league. With that said, he was a fifth round pick that was forced into playing time because of injury. I would not write him off. Given a full off-season with the team I expect him to improve dramatically.

Wilson gives us value for the future, worth keeping and developing to see how far he goes improving. Schobert's worth is immediate, player-coach type. We need yhat available. We can't bring in anybody to match that if he goes. But a reasonable one or two year contract seems fair. Dorsey wouldn't, but these guys should. JMO

J/c
Realistically Wilson should not have seen the field half as much as he was forced to. He should be a ST/replacement type LB. He probably played well considering. But I wouldn’t bank on him to be a good starter

Mack Wilson is soft right now in his career. Joe Mixon absolutely ate his lunch this season. He is more "Box Safety" than he is linebacker. He is listed as 240, there is absolutely no way that is true.

He is above average NFL player against the pass and as a late round rookie.....that is OUTSTANDING.

He is below a replacement level player against the run. Just absolutely awful against the run.


Time will tell, but if he can improve to an average NFL run stopper, he can be a quality starter for a while. If he cannot, he is Barkivious Mingo, too weak to play full time and will need to carve out special teams roles.

I think the sticking point is whose version of reasonable.

I also think the fact that CBA negotiations are ongoing is slowing down re-signings. If the players' percentage of overall revenue goes up, individual contracts would likely follow. Both sides have known this was coming. The increased uncertainty is giving most people involved pause. Do they add a game, do league minimums go up, do guarantees need to be put in escrow, etc- lots of things are up in the air.

I might try to sell Joe on a one year deal while that gets sorted. Plus, it would let us see how he fits with the new scheme/staff. Maybe offer the same number as he'd get with a transition offer sheet.

As far as Wilson, I'm not sure what to expect. I like what I'm seeing on his Twitter feed. Seems to have the right attitude (as long as he doesn't overdo it.) I'd feel more confident if we had Pagac instead of Tarver as LB coach. How fast can he pick up the new scheme? He has nice tools.

Kirksey is due for a healthy year, too. I know he's had bad injury luck the past 2 seasons, but torn pecs are pretty rare and random. He was a tackling machine in '16 (3rd in NFL in tackles) and '17 (4th). A pec shouldn't effect explosiveness/athletecism. He'd played all 16 games his first 4 years in the league.

if we don't resign Schobert... I have no faith in the regime.

I think one has to consider the circumstances. Unless you have long standing ties to Ohio, why would a player want to stay here? Let's be realistic. Schobert will be on his third HC since he was drafted. A new HC and DC who have never had any experience at their respective jobs.

People can say what they like, but the fact is that if you are a successful player, why wouldn't you test the FA market? People may sign a "hometown discount" or a " reasonable contract" if they are tied to a coach or a system which has brought success. They may see a move as a risk if those circumstances exist. But that's not the case here.

I think the odds would be against Schobert not testing the FA market. I don't believe anything that was going on here last season, or even since he was drafted here would have caused him to sign a long term deal to stay before testing his options.

I'm not sure what the plan will be to replace him. I do not however see it being Mack or Takitaki. They may develop more but I've seen nothing to indicate they're ready for prime time.

meanwhile, Schobert ranked (compared to all other LB's):

9th in total tackles
10th in total tackles overall
4th in individual tackles
17th in assisted tackles
2nd in Ints
17th in Forced Fumbles

He has ranked top 10 in tackles in 2 of his 4 seasons.
- would have been 3 if he had not been injured.

He is really smart and the quarterback of the defense. Why in the heck wouldn't we pay the man?

I agree he is smart and the leader of the defense. I think the one big knock I would put on him is he is not the most athletic LB in the world. I think when guys like Garrett, Vernon, Kirksey went down/suspended, it did expose Schobert's lack thereof at times.
Still, I try to keep him.

Price tag matters. I think I sign Schobert to a contract similar to Jamie Collins a few years ago. He'll be solid for us for a couple of years until we can find someone better. Then we have the option of trading or cutting him. I don't know that he'll ever be an "elite" LB, but we could do far worse.

He may, and I want that

Schobert was the "MLB", but he did not always l;ine up as a traditional MLB. We were often in a 4-2-5 alignment, which moved Schobert in or out.

I like Schobert, but I don't think he's worth any big money. If Wilson got as many reps as Show did, I don't think there would be any drop in production.

Obviously, we're keeping Wilson and Taki. FO will essentially need to make a decision on picking either Show or Kirko to give some kind of money to. My nod goes to Kirko.

What about the old regime that had a whole off-season and season to sign him and didn’t? At this point no player should re-sign. Free agency is a month away. Test the market.

j/c

I'm honestly just perplexed.

we have a top 10 LB( vs all inside and out) and we are complaining that he isn't good enough.

It's like complaining that we have Keenan Allan, Deandre Hopkins or Amari Cooper on a rookie contract and we really would like to get rid of them to find the next Larry Fitz, AJ Green, or Julio Jones.

ya'll are slightly crazy. lol

For the record, I was not suggesting a choice between Schobert or Mack. I was simply asking for opinions on Mack.

Is he really top ten though?

Bobby Wagner, Devin Bush, Deion Jones, Roquan Smith, Demario Davis, Shaq Thompson, Kwon Alexander, Eric Kendricks, Darius Leonard, Devin White.

I'm taking all of those guys over Schobert. And I would still re-sign him. But let's not overrate a guy just because we like him.

well, numbers... which one of these stands out?


Schobert 133 tackles 89 solo 2 sacks 2 ff 4 ints

Devin Bush 109 tackles 72 solo 1 sacks 1 ff 2 ints
Deion Jones 110 tackles 68 solo 0 sacks 0 FF 1 INT
Roquan Smith 101 tackles 66 solo 2 sacks 0 FF 1 INT
Demario Davis 111 tackles 87 solo 4 sacks 0 FF 0 INT
Shaq Thompson 109 tackles 75 solo 0 sacks 0 FF 0 INT
Kwon Alexander 109 tackles 75 solo 0 sacks 0 FF 0 INT
Eric Kendricks 110 tackles 70 solo.5 sacks 0 FF 0 INT
Darius Leonard 121 tackles 71 solo 5 sacks 2 FF 5 INT
Devin White(rook) 91 tackles 58 solo2.5sacks 3 FF 1 INT


that took way too long to type and lookup everyone's stats LOL

I'm confident Schobert can beat out multiple people on that list.

I think you are overrating the tackle stat.

You know what number would also stand out that you did not include? Snap counts.

Schobert was on the field for almost 100% of the defensive plays. Most of those other names were in the vicinity of 85%. I looked them up but didn't have the capacity to post them. No one on that list was really even close to the playing time of Schobert.

I love Schobert as much as the next guy and I'd very much enjoy it if he stays but we shouldn't get carried away. He's a great player, but there are better.

While he has a lot of tackles, Schobert's also been near the league "lead" in missed tackles multiple years.

link

I like Mack (the linebacker) . He just wasn't very good.

Joe’s rookie year was sensational ... what were your thoughts on him after his rookie year ...

Just curious .... did Joe come out a year earlier than he should have? .... let me guess, that’s irrelevant ... ....

PFF Grading scale:
100-90 elite
89-85 Pro Bowler
84-70 starter
69-60 backup
59-0 replaceable.

2019 Joe Schobert Overall PFF Grade: 59.1

2019 Joe Schobert Run Defense Grade: 47.1

2019 Mack Wilson Overall PFF Grade: 42.9

2019 Mack Wilson Run Defense Grade: 41.7

Scho is definitely not Backup level, so I cannot agree with that rating, BUT he can be improved upon. Still... until you have better, you keep what you have. Mack is NOT an adequate replacement. Mack flashes, but in no way do I feel he has shown is is ready, or capable, of starting at a high level.

I advocate not only resigning Scho, but also drafting a LB in the first three rounds.

Our new OC has plenty of toys, and once we get him some quality Tackles, I feel that the rest of Free Agency and the Draft should be focused on getting the new DC some better toys.... and I would not be averse to us drafting Malik Harrison for this.