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Thought this was a decent article......

Jury still out on Frye, Savage in same boat
By:Jeff Schudel, Morning Journal Writer
11/08/2006

link

EIGHT games remain for Phil Savage to determine whether Charlie Frye should be the Browns quarterback for 2007 and the years ahead.

By the end of the season, assuming Frye finishes it on his feet, he will have made 21 starts. That should be enough for a trained talent evaluator like Savage to project how Frye will play in the future.

For all the attention Frye has received, Savage is the one on trial, more than the quarterback and more than coach Romeo Crennel, because Savage chose to hitch his wagon to Frye rather than trade up in the 2006 draft for Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler.

The argument for sticking with Frye is strong, but is based mostly on intangibles. He is a team leader, he is fearless and he gets up hit after hit without saying a negative word about his offensive line. The closest he came to criticizing his protection occurred Sunday in San Diego when he said too many sacks were given up early.

A reporter asked if they were "coverage sacks." Frye would have taken his linemen off the hook by saying they were, but he shook his head. The line that protected him well against the Jets, a team that does not blitz often, could not handle the Chargers' blitz.

But blaming everything on the offensive line is wrong. That does not explain why so many of Frye's passes sail over the receiver's head or are behind the target, nor why he holds onto the ball so long.

Frye has thrown 12 interceptions halfway through the season. Not all were his fault. The pass that went through Dennis Northcutt's hands and was intercepted and returned for a touchdown in the Carolina game was Northcutt's error.

But the interception Frye threw Sunday was a bad pass. Braylon Edwards leaped to catch it. Edwards got both hands on the ball. Any receiver will say he should catch the ball when that happens, but the pass left Edwards exposed. He was creamed by a Chargers safety, lost control of the ball and the pass was intercepted.

During the past offseason, Frye worked on his arm strength.

Coaches were pleased and his passes did not flutter as they did last year. He showed he has a marvelous touch on deep passes when he hooked up with Edwards for completions of 75 yards against Cincinnati and 58 against Baltimore. He hooked up with Joe Jurevicius for 52 yards against the Chargers.

Throwing long is not what arm strength is about. One scout who has studied Frye says Frye cannot throw the 10- to 15-yard out pattern with enough velocity. He has the touch to drop a pass over the receiver's shoulder, but he can't whistle the ball in a tight area when he has to, the scout said.

An example of that occurred in the game Sunday when Chargers linebacker Randall Godfrey almost intercepted a pass intended for Kellen Winslow Jr. Winslow broke up the pass.

"In the NFL, the quarterback has an eight-inch window on those patterns," the scouts said. "Teams know Frye can't throw it so they take away other parts of the field."

That analysis explains why Frye holds onto the ball as long as he does - that and indecisiveness that comes from having played less than a season.

Savage made the calculated decision to not sign a veteran quarterback in the offseason. That Frye would hit rough spots in his first full season starting was easier to predict than the San Diego weather.

It is the situation Frye is facing now why we advocated signing Vinny Testaverde. Testaverde could tell Frye how to counter what defenses are doing, but Savage decided to stick with Ken Dorsey and Derek Anderson.

Savage is in a difficult spot. Brady Quinn is the top-rated quarterback in the draft. Obviously, it is too early to know whether Quinn would be available when the Browns pick.

Taking a quarterback with the first pick would be admitting the Browns were wrong about Frye and it would mean 2006 was a wasted season. Plus, this team has so many other needs, starting with three defensive linemen, a right offensive tackle, two guards, a cornerback and a running back. That's eight picks without taking a quarterback.

When Savage spoke at a Hall of Fame function in May, he said if Frye doesn't establish himself in two years, the Browns would have a new general manager, meaning Savage would be fired for being wrong about Frye and Browns owner Randy Lerner would be forced to hire new leadership and start over again.

So far, there are as many questions as answers about Frye.

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Now that's about as stupid a statement as I've ever read.

While it would mean they were wrong about Frye, it wouldn't make '06 a wasted year. That's just ignorant. [/color]

I don't believe that Savage is the one on trial. He doesn't perform on the field or coach the team. Any decisions he makes are in conjunction with Romeo and what coaches think players are capable of. This past draft, the team had so many holes to fill that trading up for a QB would have been a ridiculous choice. Savage has been quoted as saying that if Cutler would have fallen to # 12, he would have been taken by the Browns. He didn't fall that far, so we took Wimbley. A good pick.

I think Savage has done a good job. He has tried to fill the holes with Free Agents and draft picks. We can argue all day about if McGinnest, Washington, Bentley and Shaffer proved to be good free Agent signings or not, but the reasons for the moves were logical and sound. Injuries and surrounding talent always plays a role in how any move pans out, but Savage/Crennel have not been clueless as far as team building player decisions are concerned, unlike some previous Cleveland GM/Head Coach situations we've had since 1999.

I have been vocal about Charlie not being the one we need for a starting QB at this particular point in time. Not because I don't believe Charlie can't be a NFL starting QB, but because I don't believe he is a good fit with this team, at this point in time. Charlie could be an excellent QB in Denver, St Louis, KC or Jacksonville. His talent and experience fits in with the surrounding talent and coaching on those teams better than he fits on the Browns.

Part of the problem was Mo. Mo didn't get along with Dilfer and the coaching staff sent Dilfer packing..... because Difer was an experienced QB and wouldn't put up with a micromanaging control freak (Carthon) and Mo wanted absolute, unquestioning obedience. This was more than likely the reason another Vet wasn't brought in at QB to help Frye develop. Mo is gone now, but so is the veteran QB....and Frye is having problems deleloping into the QB we need. Is this Savage's fault...maybe...Is this Romeo's fault... definately.

It's similar to the Kitna situation in Detroit or the Harrington situation in Miami. Kitna is doing far better in Detroit than he did in Cincy.... At the same time, Harrington is proving to be a decent QB in Miami. Their talents fit their surrounding talent and coaching situations.....

I think Savage will be given the time to build the team. I doubt if Romeo and Charlie will be around by the time the team is built..... JMHO

I stopped reading after this comment:



Typical comment by a no nothing reporter trying to get something started... How in heavens name does he know what Phil expects..

The only way the next 8 games tell the whole story is if somehow, the Oline starts playing like a bunch of Pro Bowlers....

Right now, the only guys I like on that line are Fraley and I'm not feeling bad about Butler either.. Of course, Tucker if he's ready to go also.

What? We don't need a left tackle?

This is my opinion also. And as I've said, I'm beginning to think that he's not going to be the future of the team...but he's got 8 games to become 'the guy'.

...um, well, since I just said the same thing, then there's proof that I'm a know nothing (as we all have known all along) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I totally agree Toad. There are a lot of other areas that are developing this season, like new linebackers gelling, creating depth in the secondary, and getting our rookie skill players some experience.

Although Frye may not be the guy for the next 3-6 years, I really think he is the guy for the next 1-2, through at least part of the 2008-09 season. Think of him as the placeholder on a re-building team. He can make some plays, can be fun to watch, but most importantly is a gamer who can take the punishment behind a developing O-line.

He will make all the rookie mistakes, and may or may not grow out of them. I would be sorely disappointed if we drafted a QB in rounds 1-2 this year. I just don't think we can afford to spend the money on that. I'd rather see the FA and cap money spent on building up the trenches. Signing a veteran FA QB would be a little better, but I'll eat my hat if we make a move and get Quinn.

Draft early for a potential starting QB in 2008, and put him in if necessary mid-season, with Frye moving to back-up.

I hate this doomsday idea that this season is a complete waste and the whole ship should be scuttled. What exactly is the minimum required performance for Frye and Savage? Six wins? Seven? A QB rating of 90+?? Although they are frustrating and sometimes painful to watch, I actually think this team is better than last years, and has more future potential. It just isn't going to show up in W's.

Frye will be the starter next year.. no doubt about it... and i'm behind him.. We got a QB who has confidence, who is determined to make plays, and who is always ready to take the field regardless of the situation on the field....

8 games left.. lets get some wins.. we need to atleast win 5 of our last 8 games... That should be enough to stay on top of the steelers atleast.. LMAO!!

This next draft will be about o-line and d-line... u can bet on that...

Mental note Jeff Schudel.....is an idiot.

Savage just signed one.

Im seeing he's a fans favorite journalist around here......

I Still think some the things he has said is a bullseye



IMO this is one the main problems of Frye, He does not have that quick high velocity 10-20 YD pass in them tight spots. And thats one the most important passes for a QB to make.Cant be only one demensional in the NFL cause everyone is so good that if they take away his deep ball then they know he cant make the tight fast 10-20 YD pass in tight spots .



IMO this is a statement that has proven itself . Im not saying he is a bad QB, In fact I dont see how you can give up on a guy with only 12 starts. I would give him till the end on next year for improvement.
And i do wish we signed a vetern QB to help him along with some the gametime guidence. i think it would have helped him some.

[img][image]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/thepitdog/topdawg.jpg[/img][/image]

Vette, your killing me man <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lots of us say stuff like that,,, so do the reporters out there, but what do we or they really know,,,,,,,, NOTHING. So don't take it personal,,, certainly wasn't meant that way.

I agree that Charlie has not shown the arm strenght to make those passes....yet


We knew he was a project, did Tom Brady have a cannon coming out of the school up north (in my backyard <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />). NO or he would have started over John Navarre.

How is John Navarre doing these days? and those "scouts" that said that Chad Pennington, Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman, were top two round picks, while Tom Brady went in the 6th round. Where are they now?

My point is, you can judge Charlie by his arm strength ( Tod Marinovich) or you can judge Charlie by this work ethic (tom brady).


Give me a lunch pail guy over a "Super Star" any day. That, is what I think this organization is trying to, and IS doing.

JMO

OK....I get Manning, you get Frye.

Guess who just won? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, you know what I mean, Charlie didn't go first overall for a reason.


Hey, the Colts could have Ryan Leaf... <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

and IMO, Peyton is a lunch pail guy with superstar abilities, that is why he is great.

I do......just jerking your chain a bit. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I couldn't have said it better myself, except you forgot to mention his laser-rocket arm!
<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] For all the attention Frye has received, Savage is the one on trial, more than the quarterback and more than coach Romeo Crennel, because Savage chose to hitch his wagon to Frye rather than trade up in the 2006 draft for Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler.
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O.k...one MIGHT argue whether Phil is on trial..he is but not for selecting Frye..
So Jeff was Phil just going to SNAP HIS FINGERS and move up to take Leinart or Cutler , when Defense is what was needed in our first pick?
Two rookie QB's in Frye / Leinart or Cutler with no vet to tutor either? <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] Throwing long is not what arm strength is about. One scout who has studied Frye says Frye cannot throw the 10- to 15-yard out pattern with enough velocity. He has the touch to drop a pass over the receiver's shoulder, but he can't whistle the ball in a tight area when he has to, the scout said.
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I have actually seen him do that several times..WHEN he hesitates to do it , he gets in trouble..I disagree totally with that comment.

[color:"red"] Taking a quarterback with the first pick would be admitting the Browns were wrong about Frye and it would mean 2006 was a wasted season. [/color]
No it's not idiot..it's a season to see what the kid has..

[color:"red"] Plus, this team has so many other needs, starting with three defensive linemen, a right offensive tackle, two guards, a cornerback and a running back. That's eight picks without taking a quarterback.
[/color]
Then why didn't your STUPID-A SAY THAT in your first comments about the draft <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />I almost did write that, but I thought people wouldn't take my comment serious if I did. Laser rocket arm..... <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


To Peen: I know you were just jerkin me, but other people aren't as quick, just clarifying for them. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Did't see this anywhere....
link

Jury still out, Frye backed by Crennel
Browns coach says quarterback's skills are adequate to win in NFL
By Patrick McManamon
Beacon Journal sportswriter
BEREA - Results are mixed and questions have increased now that Charlie Frye is halfway through his first full season as quarterback of the Browns.

For whatever reason, Sunday's loss in San Diego seems to have thrown many into a quandary about Frye.

Part of it was that the lasting vision of that loss is of Frye circling in the backfield, looking for a place to throw.

Another part is the lost fumble near his end zone.

And yet another is the perception fueled by television commentary that Frye stares down his receivers and throws the ball late.

But one man who counts stands by Frye.

``I'm still confident in Charlie and his abilities,'' coach Romeo Crennel said Thursday as the Browns prepared for Sunday's game in Atlanta. ``I think Charlie will be able to be a good quarterback for us and make us a winning team.''

OK, then.

The Browns started the season with the stated goal of keeping Frye healthy for 16 games and riding out his development.

He has barely stayed healthy and the ride has been 2-and-6 rough as Frye has been sacked a league-high 29 times.

If he didn't' realize it before -- and he probably did -- in these eight games, Frye has learned that he's not playing for the University of Akron anymore (Toto).

Defenses are more complex, and pass rushers are bigger, stronger and faster.

Scrambling and meandering will work on some plays (note the 52-yard throw to Joe Jurevicius in San Diego) but not on others (note the 7,622 times he was hit by the Chargers).

The Browns also wanted to surround Frye with talent so he wouldn't feel he had to carry the team. Some of that talent has come through, most notably Kellen Winslow, who has 51 receptions.

But at times it's also not come through.

Whispers are increasing that Braylon Edwards' routes are not always the crispest, and at times Winslow does not show a complete grasp of the offense.

This affects a quarterback, because if he drops back and the receiver is not where he's supposed to be, suddenly the flow of the play is off. Which might be why Frye scrambles sometimes instead of throwing the ball away.

The Browns also expected to run the ball better this season, with Reuben Droughns coming off consecutive 1,200-yard seasons.

That hasn't happened.

Droughns is averaging a paltry 3.2-yards per carry.

The offense is 31st in rushing and 31st in sacks allowed. Those rankings are not ones the offensive line can hang its hat on.

Frye ranks 16th in the league in passing yards, with 1,565.

But his rating of 69.2 is 29th among quarterbacks, tying him with Drew Bledsoe (who has been benched).

The reason for the ranking: Interceptions.

Only Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger has thrown more than Frye.

Frye assessed his first half by saying the Browns need to win, but he admitted he has to get rid of the ball and avoid interceptions.

``The turnover ratio is important when trying to win games,'' he said.

In Frye's defense, four of his interceptions have come when the ball was dropped by one of his receivers.

A fifth came against the Baltimore Ravens when he was hit as he threw, and a sixth was tipped at the line.

Which means half his interceptions were not all his fault.

But Frye has thrown others that could have been intercepted. And he has yet to totally silence those who worry about his arm strength and ability to read defenses.

Crennel, when talking about Frye's strengths, referred to his quarterback skills as adequate.

``He has good leadership ability, which you need,'' Crennel said. ``He's got toughness and his teammates rally around him. You need that, too. He is adequate with his skills as a quarterback.

``All of those things can make him a winner.''

If one goes along with the thinking that Frye did not have to carry the Browns but merely would be part of a overall group, then his success more or less mirrors the success of the offense.

The Browns' offensive line has struggled.

The receivers have been inconsistent, and the play-calling at times bizarre.

Finally, the running game is not what it could have been.

Obviously, the Browns do not have the supporting cast in place that they want.

``We are still working,'' Crennel said, ``to try to get that to the way we wanted.''

Frye can clearly play better. Last weekend, he faced one of the league's better defenses. The Chargers' speed seemed to overwhelm the Browns (same with the New Orleans Saints in the opener).

Sunday in Atlanta, the Browns face a defense that gave up 321 yards passing on Sunday to Jon Kitna of the Detroit Lions.

The Falcons are 31st in the league in pass defense, and they have 11 fewer sacks than the Chargers.

If the Chargers were just too much for the Browns' young quarterback, the Falcons could provide an opportunity to regain lost footing.

``He's a tough-minded individual,'' Crennel said. ``He's going to work to get better and help this team win.''


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Sure makes it hard for Charlie to throw timing patterns or seem overly accurate if this is the case. At least for us observers, knowing who's at fault is nearly impossible sometimes.

Everyone complains about when Winslow isn't on the field (and these are the things that are hard to see watching film but not knowing exactly who's supposed to be doing what), but a lot of times it seems like Winslow goes out on his pattern even though we need him to stay in and block. Hopefully he can grow out of this and its a learning issue - not a ball-hog issue.

Anyway...

I for one have always taken these "stand by your man" statements as the sign things are going down the tubes.

You don't hear Dungy as an example talking about standing by Peyton. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


OK....that might be a bit far fetched......but when you start hearing this kind of talk, it generally isn't good.

Apparently the news of the day is that "the jury is still out", these guys need some new, or perhaps original material. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Taking Cutler would have been nice. I wouldnt have argued the move at all. This year you basicly have Quinn. I get the feeling Brohm may stay at Louisville and Woodson will remain at Ky. this is a RB/WR draft with a few good OL thrown in the mix. I would probaly go with a Michael Bush or Lynch.

Bottom line is we need to see improvement on a game to game basis.

If he keeps making the same mistakes, he's done for. I don't care if it's his first year or not. Sam Rutigliano said it best on STO last night, Frye keeps making the same mistakes over and over. VERY alarming.

Is anyone curious about seeing Derek Anderson?

I'm not saying we should toss CF on the scrap heap, but if he doesn't improve a lot (and I don't think he's played that poorly, when you take everything into consideration) maybe Anderson could jump-start the offence. He supposedly has a cannon arm.

NO.

I said it before the season, Charlie is protected by inept backups. As bad as he has been there wont be to much cheering when the backup enters the game.

Ya, I am actually afraid of seeing Derek Anderson and I hope Chalire stays healthy.

I mean I wouldn't mind seeing him spell charlie if we are getting blowout or blowing someone out. Till then, I hope he stays on the pine.

This jury is in.I'm tired of hearing about the jury being out.One of these writers has step up and make a call,yea,or nea.Then half of the posters can call him an idiot,and the other half praise his insight.Kinda like the good old days.

I heard Bill Laimbeer say in an interview that he hated being a sports analyst, because sports analysts need to be negative 60% of the time to get ratings.

This article is what Laimbeer was talking about. Someone writing an article to get ratings.

This guy was even wrong on the throw that Winslow broke up from being an INT. The writer said it was because Frye didn't have enough arm strength. Sorry Mr. sports writer, but no QB could have gotten that ball in there. The mistake on that play was that Frye should have never thrown the ball in the first place.

He's a idiot because you don't bring in the QB first without the supporting cast in place..thats what Phil tried to do and Jeff said as much about the holes being plugged..so which is it?
U bring in a QB with nothing around him?
Well with what the BROWNS have in place this is no environment for a franchise QB..get the other things cemented first.
Then if Phil/Rac decide that they need to go elsewhere because of Frye's OWN INABILITIES then the surrounding pieces are there in place.

You are closer to news on Brohm than I am, but given the fact Quinn is the only other real choice, this would be a good year for Brohm to come out.

But....I can't say I know who is down the road at the position either.

There is no question Brohm is a solid prospect, and IMO he is at the crest. I know if he was asking me, unless he has some sort of meltdown between now and the end of the season, I would tell him to cash in and move to the NFL.

QB is a risky position to play. One injury and you have shot a big wad of cash. Leaving a year early also gives those guys an extra year of grace in the event things don't go well. People can always say he came out early and is going to take a bit longer to develop....true ot not.

You also have to consider who around him is leaving as well. The dynamics of the team might not be the best if he stays....kind of gets back to that riding the crest I mentioned earlier. A guy like Leinart knew Bush was returning and much of his line was returning. If it isn't like that for Brohm, it might be a really dumb move to stick.

Right now Brohm would be a top 10 pick...or at least close.....he is in line for a pretty nice contract....if he sticks, it might not be as nice.

I was wondering why Frye didnt throw that away sooner during the play.
Then I saw there was a flag. I think Frye saw the flag and knew there was a penalty and tried to get as much out of the play as possible. Knowing even an interception would be returned back to the Browns. Looked bad but was very smart.

Time for me to jerk your chain a little Peen..



Ok,, you take Manning and I'll take Frye,, But I get the entire Colts team to put Frye on and you get the Browns team to go with Manning..

Do you still feel as confident? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep

Attack, we've all seen it work both ways really.. The late 80's Browns were a pretty decent team on both lines,,,then Add Kosar and a few other trimmings,,, and Boom, you got a team..

On the other hand, look at Dallas, Aikman was there, then they built a team around him....

For my part, I still say it's stupid to just dump Charlie even if he doesn't light it up for the balance of the year.... We need to address the lines, RB (for the future) and the Secondary or it just won't matter who our QB is.

You know, I watched the Colts-Pats game last night and it seemed Manning would just drop back, make a quick decision and throw it. I know there's lots of variables, but it's not like he could stand there and wind his watch.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"] Did you miss the Colts playoff game last year vs Pittsburgh? How did Manning play when he was getting pressure like the pressure Frye see every week? If I remember correctly he basically blamed the OL for the loss...

Peyton Manning wouldve requested a trade and thrown his teamates under the bus by now, if he was in Cleveland taking the hits Frye has... [/color]

Give Frye a better O-line and RB.....you'll see a better QB. Even if we bring in a new QB via free agency or the draft, we still have a bellow average O-line and average RB. Build up the pieces around the QB first! We've gone through this time and time again.

Savage needs to really focus on the O-line this offseason. We need more quality starters and better backups. The productivity of the offense starts and ends with the line. We all know that.

As far as Frye's abilities go, he needs more work. He needs more confidence. He needs more time. Can he grow into a "Peyton Manning"? Nope. Can he become a QB that can manage a game and make a key throw here and there (and eventually win with)? Yes.

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Just an observation:

All of the Frye talk is starting to sound *REALLY* familiar.
In fact, it's starting to echo nearly verbatim all of the discussions that surrounded 'He Who's Name Shall Not Be Spoken'.

Hopefully we all take it for what it is and that is that we've been spinning our wheels, thus we're in the same position we've been in. Fix the rest (i.e. we have no running game and have had no running game for almost a decade now) and then worry about the hand size of the QB.

If we can't run it when they're expecting us to run it, the rest of it isn't going to work all that well.