DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus MEDICARE FOR ALL WOULD SAVE $450 BILLION ANNUALLY WHILE PREVENTING 68,000 DEATHS, NEW STUDY SHOWS

And it never changes no matter which party is in power. That's the entire point I believe. Trying to lay claim that it's "A Democrat\Socialist trying to talk about debt, that's damn rich for sure.", is disingenuous. Claiming you want to ask Bernie the question without asking Trump that same question is disingenuous.

Disingenuous? BERNIE is proposing over 75 TRILLION in new spending for his programs. That ish has ZERO to do with Trump. C'mon man!

I thought the topic was the deficit and who was increasing it. You seem to indicate it's no longer about that but rather who intends to increase it the most.

Let's face it, there's no way Bernie has a chance of being elected. So one, at least for now and likely in the future has no chance to increase the deficit. While the other is currently doing it on a daily basis.

Bernie isn't even the nominee yet. He's not in power and there is a reasonable chance he never will be.

The issue I have - and others obviously - is the GOP only ever worries about debt and deficit when they are not in power. That is 100% hypocritical. I'm not deflecting from Bernie - but hard to have a rationale conversation when one side wants to claim a $450 Billion annual saving on one of plan while the other says it will increase costs by $x Trillion over 10 years .... pretty certain that the truth is somewhere most definitely not at either of those extremes.

Nope. Topic is about Bernie's 48 trillion dollar healthcare plan. The other 150 topics are about how terrible Trump is. Anybody brings up the cost and people answer the question with: But, TRUMP!

It's called ignoring the question by moving the goal posts. But yet, I'm the one changing the subject by bringing it back to the actual topic.

Let me let you in on a little secret: NO politician cares about the deficit, because if they did, and said what needed to be done to truly. TRULY reduce it, they'd never get elected. (here's a clue: cut spending, and raise taxes. No, try running on that platform...)

On a different thread, some are griping that trump cut spending on the cdc.........how DARE he do that?

All citizens want spending cut on things that don't affect them. In the case of health care, Bernie wants the rich to pay higher taxes, to have a wealth tax, and to tax businesses higher. Always someone elses money. Problem is, the rich are the ones that donate the money to get politicians elected, and politicians write the tax code. Does anyone think his plan would ever truly take affect and force the rich to pay more?

Damn right trump is adding to the deficit, and the debt. Just like Obama did, just like Bush did, just like.......all in recent history.

Here's another clue: The U.S. will never make even a slight dent in the debt. The combined public debt, and federal debt. (did you know there are 2 types of debt the gov't. reports?)

GOPers worrying about deficit all of a sudden, smfh. Centrist, establishment dems, and MSM smearing Bernie non stop for weeks to the point that they've cycled through all the other candidates and are back where they started making Biden the new savior this week... Guys like Pit saying Bernie will never be elected. With all the dirty politics going on he's probably right, Bernie will be cheated out of the nomination but he will have the most delegates going into the convention.

I don't know who's worse, establishment dems or Trump supporters.

Don't you mean real Democrats? I mean your candidate of choice is an Independent. He's not even a Democrat.

You have a lot of gall.

A valid point, although it will be skewed by a few factors.
1. Current medicare contains co-pays on every procedure a senior has done.
2. Bernie's plan means nobody pays a co-pay on anything and that gets extended to prescriptions, eye-care, dental, etc... I figured it would probably be a wash.
3. The Medicare numbers I cited includes 50 million Americans covered by Medicaid, which is not senior citizens.

Strangely enough, Bernie's site has been updated in the last few days, since the Harvard Study. His site now estimates the total cost at 47 trillion. I guess my rudimentary "guess" was off by 1 trillion.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/

Just for s&g's, let's do some more math...

47T (cost) - 17T (new wealth taxes, etc) = 30T

30T / 140 million tax payers = 215,000 over ten years.

That's $21,000 per year, per taxpayer.

Seems doable... Anyone here spend over 40 grand a year to cover theirs and spouses healthcare? I mean, everyone keeps insisting this is money we're already spending anyway.

You're right! That's why I think he should run as an independent in the general when the dems who he's caucused with and supported for 30 years cheat him out of the nomination. He's a jew whose family died in the holocaust too, but last week establishment dems started comparing him to Nazis. smh

That would insure a Trump victory. I thought that's the one thing you wanted to avoid?

No not really. In order to be taken seriously about a question like the Deficit - some interest must be taken in the Deficit at all times. Not just when it seems helpful to try to shoot down the opposition on a specific plan for medicare for all.

As for the numbers - as I mentioned, you have one side saying it'll save Billions each year and the other saying it'll cost Trillions. The truth is neither of those things. So where do you want to start the conversation? Is healthcare a right? If so how do we implement it? If all these other nations do it - have better healthcare and have lower costs per procedure and have healthier citizens through preventive care ... how and what is the best way to bring that to the USA? What's the price going to be in the short term? How can that price be lowered long term?

Actually, I think the same side (bernie) said those things. In the sense that his own numbers show somewhere around 45 trillion in cost over a decade, but only 450 billion in savings per year. Like the gov't. has ever saved anyone any money??

Do I have those numbers correct?

Don't worry, like all the establishment dems shamelessly smearing him, we all know Bernie has way too much integrity to do that.

And I'll cast a vote for the nominee. But like I said, if they cheat Bernie out of it unfairly, I'm done with the dems. (In the future elections, just to clarify that position.)

In that case you'll just be helping every Republican candidate from here on out. Good job.

You mean actual Democrats. Bernie isn't a Democrat.

No I mean the corporate neocon schills that hijacked the party in the 80s and 90s. Those people who have drug the party to the right for 30 years. Reagan era democrat yuppies that had no connection to the people powered political movements of the civil rights era... the centrist sellouts that just want to get along with the republicans at the cost of doing anything good for the working class.

I don't get why you are so against Bernie when all he really wants is a baseline safety net to keep the people on the bottom from suffering and give every American a fair chance. Socialism for people over socialism for corporations and the elite... I would think any REAL DEMOCRAT could get behind that.

I don't know. I doubt it - just because the "cost" seems really high. What I *think* is that some of that cost will get washed out or balanced by what is already paid (either by companies providing coverage or by our own contributions and deductibles. But there is such a long way to go and the nominee is far from determined ... so I have decided not to research and spend time digging until we have narrowed the field of possibilities. But again - I find it impossible to believe the USA would dig a 45 Trillion dollar hole for itself by doing what these EU countries already do - and none of them have the same debt to GDP ratio the USA does now.

Someone quoted ocd's link citing Bernies plans, and costs.

Who cares what it costs. ‘We the people’ deserve and demand the best. This is the richest country in the world. Our economy is great right?
https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

It's nice to know how you feel about Obama. It's also nice to see how you feel that Democrats are sell outs unless they adopt the most far left radical views in our nation. And you wonder why I have a problem with how people such as yourself think.



Ah, but I'm not a "real Democrat". I refuse to sell my soul to a political party.

I'm not against Bernie. But you seem to think it's an all or nothing proposition. Actually almost every candidate running for the Democratic nomination has in pace very good safety nets for the poor and lower middle class. They just aren't as radical in their implementation. Most would allow every American to have healthcare. They wouldn't make college free, but would greatly reduce the cost. As you pointed out to me, Pete would expand public service to help pay for college. Including being a doctor in rural communities.

I'll tell you what I have against Bernie. It's not his proposals or him as a person. When it comes to a national election, he will get trounced. I want Trump out of the White House in 2020.

Somehow you think running a man who will be 79 before election day, who just had a heart attack, self proclaimed Democratic Socialist is some type of winning strategy. The Republicans will have a field day with that.

And let's not forget the Castro video. I mean people could say that Hitler united Germany as a nation too. But there's some things you just don't say. There are certain people you just don't try and legitimize.

What do I have against Bernie? I want to see someone replace Trump.

He said the same things Obama said.

Here’s a video with receipts. Take your weak rhetoric and narrative somewhere else. Educate yourself on the facts.

https://youtu.be/WTW8r3xpPWs

And I happen to feel that Bernie is the ONLY one in the primaries that can beat Trump. He has the highest favorability rating, a vast movement of loyal supporters who will campaign hard on the grassroots level, he can stay on message no matter what is thrown at him, he is quick to put Trump in his place and call it like he sees it, and I think Trump respects all that and fears running against him.

And had they found that video, the Republicans would have used it against Obama as well.

If Bernie is nominated you'll see just how accurate my assertions are. You and yours will be proven to be the one's spreading rhetoric.

My arguments remain backed by factual empirical data. Please point out where anything I have said is not based in factual data. I'll be waiting.

Your arguments against Bernie and the majority of the dem field are "uh, socialism bad! Let's keep favoring the 99% over the 1% because no one will vote for a progressive. Defeat Trump to return to the status quo!".

My arguments aren't against most of the Democratic field. Just the extremists which will cause them to lose the election.

And the Democratic field isn't "against the 99%". Obviously you don't pay much attention.

The majority of them take donations from large corporate donors. We've been down this road before, and you don't agree with how Obama says people get corrupted by large donors.

Liz just started taking super pac money too. Let's see how you feel when Trump ads outnumber Bernie adds 10 to 1.

How about the whole video, in context?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/pol...800f_video.html

j/c


I found this article interesting.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-land-42-trillion-revenue-100304923.html

Interesting article.

I found this disturbing
"And his proposal to guarantee all Americans a full-time government job paying $15 an hour, with full benefits"

How could you possibly do that without taking over all private companies?

I hope this excerpt is just a misrepresentation of what his plan actually states.

Disturbing? It sounds coo-coo crazy! I saw the same thing.

It's a federal jobs guarantee. FDR did something similar with the 3C program and infrastructure program. I don't have any details on this though and no idea what it entails, so I reserve judgement. But I just wanted to point out that it's not unprecedented.

Like everything I expect it is all about how it is implemented.

I mean I'd rather pay someone $15 an hour to work hard and be productive than give them benefits. Even if it is creating work for non essential production that is geared to simply making society better or making the Govt at large more productive. The challenge is managing it, making sure people are working hard and willing/able/capable of what you ask of them.

I'm of the belief people WANT to work and WANT to do better with their lives than simply take hand outs. Supporting people in a time of need is fine - but give them opportunities to do more. Maybe this fits into that idea? Yes there will always be people who take advantage - just like at every level of society be it the bosses at Enron stealing billions or the work shy stealing benefits .... but you don't create legislation and support based on fear of what the worst segment of society might do, you try to do what is best for the majority.