DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2020 NFL Season 2020 NFL Draft Isaiah Simmons

I'd start with whom I have graded higher as a player, but after that - if I have the same grade on them - then I go with the one more likely to have a large impact and that is Simmons. Largely because the Offense is pretty much solid now. Worst case, this Offense could roll out right now and do pretty well.... we cannot say that for the Defense.

We have no LT

That can be fixed before the draft simply by signing a guy like Jason Peters to a one year deal.

And we can see who drops to our 2nd pick.

So ... sign Peters, trade up for Simmons

I dunno. Let’s solve our LT issue. Worry about defense with the rest of the draft.

Peters is 38 years old. That’s who we’d be counting on this season? Bit risky. Then we’re in the same boat next year.


There’s LTs in this draft every bit as good as Simmons. Bad option. 1st we sign Peters thinking Simmons will be there, and then when he isn’t, what do we do then?

I think we should sign the BPA. Teams kill themselves by drafting for need. I think you move down 1 spot, maybe 2. Three spots once every freaking decade, especially if it is a qb.

Gotta think long-term. Draft the BPA on your board.

But i am thinking long-term.

LT is a position that when drafted correctly, sticks with your team through their entire career.

I know you're older than me, but in my lifetime, Walter Jones stayed in Seattle, Bryant McKinnie was in Minnesota, Jonathan Ogden was in Baltimore, Orlando Pace was in St Louis, and Joe Thomas was in Cleveland.


Positions like safety, those guys change teams. Even the best of them. Left Tackles, much less often. They don't reach free agency. When they do, it's someone like Jason Peters at 38. I believe he was traded to the Eagles from Buffalo. I doubt he ever was a free agent. Trent Williams, he's disgruntled. He also was drafted by Washington.


Top LT's are drafted. That's just how it is. They aren't found in Free Agency. There's two guys this year that, barring some unforseen circumstance, play their entire career here (as far as i'm concerned). That's long-term. Those guys are Andrew Thomas and Jedrick Wills.

Anything but a LT, with either one of them on the board, and i'll be pretty disappointed.

We need a LT. We don't have one. That guy protects the franchise.

I'm not going to debate it. We have different opinions and stated them. That's a good thing.

It would hard to pass on Simmons if he were setting there at #10 ... Just Sayin'

Agreed ... if he’s there, I run to the podium

I don't think we can hang with Pitts and Balts of the world without a difference maker on defense.

This is my biggest concern.

I agree .. we really dont have much talent on defense

I think we have some talent on defense.

Myles is one of the best in the game.

Ward is excellent.

Greedy is young and athletic. Rookie corners struggle. He wasn't great, but you can see he is talented.

Mitchell is a quality corner.

Richardson is a very good DT.

Ogunjobi struggles to get off blocks, but he can penetrate and make plays.

Vernon is a quality DE.

Randall can play. Not sure if he is going to be here, though.

Wilson is athletic. He is just very raw and growing physically.

I still can't figure out why we didn't keep Joe.

There are plenty of pieces to build around.

agreed

I agree. We have a good O. It was poorly coached last season. Our D needs a big boost. It's tough to win many games if you are counting on the O to put up 28-30 points a game to have a chance.

MG is not a difference maker ...

For u and rish and anyone else who wants to play ...

What is your definition of a difference maker
What “category” do u put MG in if not the difference maker one
Who are difference makers currently in the league

I do think MG is.....I only agreed in the sense we need to start improving the D. It lags behind what we have on the O side of the ball.

lol, not for Peen. But for anyone who thinks he isn't, what happened to the defense after he got suspended last year? I think that showed pretty loud and clear what kind of Difference Maker #95 is.

I reckon he'll be the highest paid defensive player in football sometime in 2020 (or early 2021). I think he's entering in year 4.



I maintain what i say though. I know folks want a difference maker on defense. That can wait. We've got an opportunity to get a legit NFL LT. That's a position that's very difficult to get. Guys like that don't just become available. The good ones are locked up and kept forever.

I am not sure when we'll be in this position again.


Get a real LT while there's one available. Draft a LB next year

Okay.........I am going to try this again w/you. Not to argue back-and-forth, but to clarify my position.

I say that you draft BPA and never move more than a spot or two. BB said the most ever would be 3 spots off of your vertical board, but that would have to be for a qb.

I said that drafting the BPA gives teams a better chance at long-term success. The thinking is ....... better players will almost certainly make your team better over a long period of time rather than reaching for players who fit a need.

You countered with Left tackles are for the long term. You named a few. I will counter w/this......the Rams needed a LT in the worst way not too long ago. They drafted Gregg Robinson #2 overall. How did that work out? The Rams didn't get better until they parted ways w/him and signed Whitworth in FA. There are many more examples like that.

I am not asking you to agree w/me, but I think not drafting the BPA is almost always a mistake.

Let me add two more examples that might be more familiar.

Years ago, Savage asked RAC about what he wanted. The latter wanted an edge rusher. We traded w/Baltimore to move back one spot and get a 6th round pick. The Rats selected Ngata, which allowed us to choose Kam Wimbley. Huge mistake!

There was another time when Pet wanted Gilber. We traded out of number 4 and then back up to get him at 8. He was a position of need. Khalil Mack was available at 4. So was Mike Evans. Imagine Khalil Mack on this team instead of Gilber?

Nah man............don't draft for need. Draft BPA!

Your examples though. I mean, Greg Robinson had plenty of question marks when he was drafted. A guy with ability but who hadn't put it together. That's not the case with the two guys i mentioned.

As for Gilbert, that was just a bad pick. I was high on him when he came out, but who knew he was a lazy player with more athleticism than skill (without the interest in getting better).


Just to be clear, i'm not for trading down. I'm just saying, Thomas and Wills are can't miss guys. Not saying they're gonna be in the HOF, but to me, they'll certainly be decent quality starters beginning this year and will develop into good to great starters in the future.

They're far safer bets than either of those guys.



We're just going to disagree here.

Either way, my question is, what's your solution at LT if we don't get one? Kendall Lam? We gonna sign 38 year old Jason Peters? Trent Williams (who we'd have to trade for, has missed games every year since 2013 (and didn't even play last season because of his dispute with Washington?)

Cause i'd rather go into next season with an answer at LT and a question mark at LB/S instead of a question mark at LT and Issiah Simmons.

Maybe i just am having flashbacks of Bud Dupree blindside rocking Baker on a joke of a play by Justin McCray. That position is just too important. And my two top guys are very good players. Maybe if both are gone, i'd think twice with Becton and Wirfs. But certainly with Wills and Thomas, I wouldn't think twice about them. LT is a vital position. LB/S is not.

The only player i'd consider over those two would be Chase Young. Obviously he won't be there, but that guy's really good. And he's a pass rusher.


EDIT: All in all, i see your point. Generally, i agree. But LT must be settled. We have a chance to settle it. And if there's a very good LT there, the fact that they're LTs raises their value immensely. There's a reason that they aren't easy to get in FA. (It's because they're hard to find)

I think successful teams go more BPA than drafting off of need.

I think between Simmons and any Tackle.. both of those players would fill a need since we lost two of our starting LBs, and never quite got the quality answer at tackle last year. So we win either way. Another reason I personally wouldn't trade up.

Good counter-post. I enjoy civil debates such as this one. You made some outstanding points.

Do you remember back in the day when that was the norm? I miss those days. Now, I have guys quoting me and then saying I said things I never even came close to saying. It's disgusting.

We do disagree and that's cool. On the other hand, we might agree more than we are letting on.

Good football conversation, bro. I appreciate it. I wish the board could get back to debates such as this one.

We could always bring back Whitner vs Ward,lol.

But yes, good debate. I don’t think either of our minds will change on this one.

Just different strategies.

Soooo, what if Wills or Thomas is within 3 spots on their vertical board with Simmons?

Burrows, Young, Simmons, Okudah, Brown, Wills/Thomas/Wirfs/Becton.

Obviously, I have no idea what the Browns vertical board looks like, so it's hard to answer. I'll throw something out that addresses your hypothetical.

Regarding Simmons, Wills, and Thomas: I would never drop down three spots on my Vertical board to fill a position of need unless it was a qb. Even then, I would be leery. That's how the Rats ended up w/Kyle Boller. Ozzie wanted to follow his board and Billick convinced ownership to draft Boller anyway. That didn't work out so well.

Anyway.......I would draft the BPA of those three guys. I might move down one spot for the LT, but maybe not. It depends on how much of a difference your point total is. The ideal situation for the Browns would be if they had Thomas rated higher than Simmons and both were still available.

I am one that thinks that LTs are still extremely important. I don't believe that RT's and guards are as important. The gap has closed, but there is still a gap.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be wise to discount the importance of all the things a guy like Simmons could do for your defense. Rush the passer; cover TEs and RBs; play in the short, intermediate, and deep zones; shadow athletic QBs like Lamar, etc.

I kinda doubt that Wills/Thomas and Simmons will all be available, so we are just shooting the breeze. We just have to hope that some of the qbs shoot up into the top ten.

Ward all day long.

Wellput and reasoned, Vers. I would take Simmons in a tossup because he could have game-changing impact about every play. He could expand how the defense plays and gives it more options and looks. The tackle is crucial, but contribute at a different level in different ways. If Simmons falls to us, I take him; I might try to get back in soon in that round if a solid LT was wanted. I much prefer filling these two than BPA as our scheme in the draft. I am eager to see how this works out.

I don't think we can hang with the Pitts and Balts of the world without another difference maker on D.

Better?

Myles and a bunch of stiffs don't mean much.

It like there should be an additional score, or a modifier to the board that accounts for impact potential. Like a force multiplier score.

LT is still VERY important.
Safety is still VERY important.

But, what are the game changing impacts of an elite LT vs an elite S?
It's hard to gauge because the impact plays by a Safety show up in the stat sheet, but the impact made by a LT are stats that are prevented from happening.

I agree with that completely. We need difference makers at all levels of the defense. Each position group should have one.

How about this?

Trade OBJ to Jets for their first this year. Package our first and Jets first, move up and take Simmons. Sign Clowney to front loaded contract. Re-sign Higgins. Draft best WR with one of top 4 picks.

I'm not "we should trade OBJ" guy. Just want a balanced team and dominant D. We have no chance to win the division without a dominant D.

In most every case, if one follows the money, it tells us a story.

Top safety money.....

Titans safety Kevin Byard: $14.1 million.
Chiefs safety Tyrann Mathieu: $14 million.
Redskins safety Landon Collins: $14 million.
Ravens safety Earl Thomas: $13.75 million.
Dolphins safety Reshad Jones: $12 million.
Raiders safety Lamarcus Joyner: $10.5 million.

Aug 7, 2019

Top OT money

Raiders offensive lineman Trent Brown: $16.5 million.
Titans offensive lineman Taylor Lewan: $16 million.
Giants offensive lineman Nate Solder: $15.5 million.
Falcons offensive lineman Jake Matthews: $14.5 million.

Aug 8, 2019

Whether that be impact or the skill set required, the NFL values the OT position higher than the S position.

In this scenario, I’d rather sign Peters or get Trent than sign Clowney then ... the only drawback to drafting Simmons would be passing on a top OT in my opinion.

I’d love to get Simmons AND a top OT haha

Myles Garrett has 30 1/2 sacks in 37 games 13 1/2 in 2018 10 in 10 games last year I think you guys way underestimating how much of a difference Myles makes ... Put him on the open Market and I will bet you (even though I don't bet) he would have 31 teams salivating over him and would break the DE market ... JMHO

You missed the point.

Really you tell me what the point is?

No one said Myles wasn't a difference maker.

Just that he's the only one.