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If we’re trading Vernon for Clowney I do it immediately

The scenario I'm thinking of is trading Vernon (and a later round draft pick, if necessary) for Trent Williams, after signing Clowney. It would let us wait and hope that Simmons, Derrick Brown, or Kinlaw slips to 10.

(Question: can NFL trades include cash? Because we have cash, and we could "equalize" the difference between Vernon ($15.5M) vs Williams ($12.5M), instead of sweetening with the draft pick.)

I don't see a team taking on Vernon's contract w/o some added asset of ours. Think the Osweiler trade.

But hey, I'd love to be wrong and see a team take that on.

A few things.

--Thanks for the info Kash.

--I don't think the trade of Vernon for Zeitler was dumb on the Browns part. An Edge rusher is much more important than a RG. The RG is the least important cog in the OL. Trust me on that one. I coached the OL. An Edge rusher is huge. Vernon helped take the pressure off of Myles and the latter benefited. Also, Vernon is good against the run. He sets the edge well and maintains very good outside containment. It sucks he got injured, but he is a very good player who plays a more important position than another very good player in Zeitler. Not asking you to agree. Just explaining my thinking.

--I really hope the Browns don't sign Clowney. I know people who knew him in college. He turns it on and off w/the best of them. Ever!!!! It was a contract year so he played harder. Often times, he is lazy as can be, out of shape, and takes time off. He also gets manhandled at times.

--I would rather keep Vernon [even though I am leery of his injury concerns] instead of signing Clowney. I would not trust Clowney to put in a lot of effort after he gets "paid."

He put in more effort last year? That's scary because I didn't think he was very good past year. 3 sacks in 13 games. At his price, I keep Vernon too.

I don't know about his numbers, Cle. I was talking about his motor. He played harder. He caused some havoc on plays where he didn't get the sack.

I live in SC and I know his history. I would not trust him to play hard after he gets paid.

We agree about Vernon. I think he is a very solid player. He is underrated by most of the guys I see talking about him. I do concede the injury think is fairly concerning.

I just hope we don't give Clowney a big payday.

I watched a few games when Clowney was playing, and to my untrained eye, I think he doesn't go full speed all the time. I've seen him get blocked and sort of give up. I agree he has a motor that is not non stop. I would keep Vernon, and draft a guy to groom.

A couple weeks ago an NFL Network talking head said his love of football has been questioned.

Just throwing that in.

Didn't we just pay Vernon a bunch of money?

Yes, definitely done in haste...

Ezra Cleveland and Joe Thomas coming out have uncannily similar measurables.

Both:
6'6"
311 lbs
33"+ Arm length
30 - 28 reps of 225 respectively
4.93 - 4.94 40 times "
30" - 33" Verticals "
111" - 110" Broad jumps "
4.46 - 4.88 20 yrd shuttle "
7.26 - 7.95 3 cones "

We don't have to trade his deal. We can just cut him for a 100% cap savings.

Why would we want to "just cut him?"

I'm just saying that we have no "dead cap" on his deal, because this is the final year of his contract. If they wanted to replace him with Clowney, they could easily do so from a cap aspect.

Okay...............I'm just saying that would be a dumb move. Cowney is lazy and would cost more.

Let me amend that statement by saying it is just my opinion and I have no problem w/you thinking Clowney is a better value.

Yeah, I'm not all about stats but he still doesn't show much most of the time. But he made his name on the huge hit on a 150lb Michigan RB in the bowl game. He has all the physical talent but just never seems to "take over" a game.

Not worth half what he will get. Hope it isn't us.

We agree.

I will say that if he really wanted to..........he could be a stud. Superior athlete. Great skills. Very explosive. A bit weak in the lower body against powerful blockers, but his length, quickness, and burst are impressive.

Living here in Columbia, I couldn't believe some of the stories from people who know him. I don't want this guy on the Browns.

Clowny can't stay healthy either.... I don't mind picking him up for the right price but to swap him with Vernon doesn't make a ton of sense... neither have kept themselves on the field and cloweny ha s never lived up tho his hype when drafted

Agree with you 100% - with one caveat. I think Simmons *might* go as high as #4 to the Giants. I don't see him slipping past #7 and the Panthers.... Moving from 10 to 7 still means giving up out high 2nd round pick. To me the cost of moving from 10 to 4 would not be worth it.

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp

That's an angle I had forgotten about... Having Callahan on staff should help us make an informed choice.

I would definitely pursue Clowney. I've advocated for it all offseason.

He is an elite player and is still young enough that we would be getting his prime years. He is excellent against the run and can win in the pass rush as well as anyone.

I would also still keep Vernon. He is only on a one year deal at this point. We have the cap to do it and it gives us one helluva rotation. Vernon will turn 30 this year, so he likely isn't on our radar to get another contract after this.

The one thing I'd do with Clowney, however, is tie a lot to production and being healthy. His agent won't like that, and that's fine. Pursue him, but only in a deal that makes sense for us.

I don't hate the idea of Clowney ... I hate the idea of signing a huge deal to get him here and then seeing him do something like Jamie Collins did and basically not give 100%. Clowney's last year at SC he basically took it easy and said he didn't want to risk injury as he was already touted as a top 5 pick in the draft. I think he played through injury the year before? Or maybe he had some niggling injuries his final year. . . . I disagree that he got all his kudos from one play stuffing a small RB. He's a legit elite talent & Clowney was already a huge deal before then, certainly locally in NC/SC. But he does not play with the same intensity and passion like you would want/need a top earner on your team to. . . . AND Vernon is very good too, so it's not like we have a void at the position ... an injury question maybe, but I don't like jettisoning good players just in case. Look at Joe Haden and how many productive years he has had as a Steeler because of that very thing.

If we get him ... your gonna be disappointed ... i hope I’m wrong but this dude is bad news tude wise ... once he gets paid ... i don’t suspect that will change ... if we get him i hope it does ... but that’s not usually how this plays out ...

The only reason I can think of that we are interested in Clowney is that maybe Vernon's knee injury last year was serious enough that the team doesn't think he can be an effective pass rusher anymore. Vernon never was a great pass rusher, good, not great and with all the injuries he has had the last 3 years maybe they have taken a toll, plus couple in the fact that he will be 30 this year it could be that the team just wants to move on.

Football is the ultimate team game, but not all positions are created equal.

Given the pass-happy nature of today's NFL, quarterbacks are clearly the most important players in the game, due to their responsibilities and direct impact on the outcome. What about the other players on the field? How do team builders rank and prioritize the rest of the positions on the roster?

According to scouts and coaches, they have ranked the positions in order of importance/value. Here is the hierarchy, with the Browns current starter commitment at each spot for quick reference:

1) Quarterback - Mayfield, year 3 of a 4-year 32.68 million fully guaranteed rookie contract
2) Designated Pass Rusher 1 (RDE/ROLB) - Garrett, last year of 4-year 30.4 million guaranteed rookie contract
3) Left Tackle - OPEN
4) Left Cornerback - Ward, year 3 of 4-year 29.165 million rookie contract
5) Wide Receiver 1 - Beckham, under contract until 2023, 6-yr 103.4 million contract
6) Defensive Tackle 1 - Richardson, year 2 of a 3-year 37 million contract
7) Running Back - Chubb, year 3 of a 4-year 7.4 million rookie contract
8) Designated Pass Rusher 2 (LDE/LOLB) - Vernon, final year of a 5-year 85 million contract (15.5 million due in 2020)
9) Middle Linebacker - Takitaki, Year 2 of a 4-year 3.735 rookie contract
10) Tight End - Hooper, just signed a 4-year 44 million contract
11) Free Safety - Sendejo, just signed a 1-year 2.25 million contract
12) Weak-Side Linebacker - Wilson, year 2 of a 4-year 2.83 million rookie contract
13) Right Tackle - Conklin, just signed a 4-year 42 million contract
14) Right Cornerback - Williams, year 2 of a 4-year 6.46 million rookie contract
15) Right Guard - Teller, Year 3 of a 4-year 2.7 million rookie contract
16) Wide Receiver 2 - Landry, year 3 of a 5-year 75.5 million contract
17) Center - Tretter, just signed a 3-year 32.5 million extension
18) Strong Safety - Joseph, just signed a 1-year 1.5 million contract
20) Strong-Side Linebacker - Goodson, just signed a 1-year 2.4 million contract
21) Left Guard - Bitonio, year 4 of a 6-year 52.4 million contract
22) Nose Tackle - Ogunjobi, Year 4 of a 4-year 3.9 million contract
23) Wide Receiver 3 - Ratley, year 3 of a 4-year 2.575 million contract
24) Kicker
25) Punter
26) Return Specialist

I realize that some of these positions are still up in the air depending on FA moves, trades, and the draft but I think you get the jess.

First: the Vernon, Clowney, and/or Griffen saga. The designated pass rusher 2 is the 8th most vital position to the team. We currently have 15.5 million invested in the position with Vernon. Adding a Clowney to the mix at 18 million for multiple years is crazy when you have your 3rd most vital position basically sitting open at this point. The question here is how can anyone on this board justify signing a Clowney for let's say 4-years at 18 million per year yet balk at signing the #1 rated LT in the NFL who's 31 to a similar deal when it's the 3rd most vital position compared to the 8th? Passing on the #1 LT in the game for a rookie or a Peters at this point is silly.

It appears evident that the Browns intend to move on from Vernon at this point. If they do sign Clowney (it will have to be a long term deal) there's no way the Browns hold on to that 15.5 million contract with Vernon also. If your thought process thinks that it is ok to pay Clowney 18 million per and to keep Vernon at 15.5 million because they have cap room then it makes way more sense to trade for Williams at 18 million per, skip Clowney and live with Vernon or get Clowney and trade/cut Vernon. The thought of having 33.5 million invested in Clowney and Vernon at the #8 most vital position on the team and balking at 18 million for the #1 LT in the game or considering filling that spot with a 39-year old Peters and a rookie is laughable if you're considering investing 33.5 million in the off side DE.

I still say that adding Vernon and a 3rd round pick to Washington for Williams and signing him to an 16-18 million per year deal is a way better value to the team than Clowney or a Vernon/Clowney, or just a Vernon. Oh, and there's no history of Williams taking plays off or not being focused on football as it is with Clowney.

Getting Williams also frees up the FO to focus the majority of the draft on the defensive side of the ball which has some huge holes at Safety, Linebacker and DE no matter what they do with Vernon. Unless OT Thomas from Georgia happens to fall to the Browns at #10, there is slim to no chance that the Browns get a LT anywhere else in the draft that could come in and be half the LT Williams is even if he seriously regresses. If he performs anywhere close to the level he performed at in 2018 the Browns LT position would be solid at least for 3-4 years. In fact, the entire line would be veteran and under contract for at least 2-years with no weak links.

I get that there are people on here that don't necessarily think Williams would be a good move. I get that and unfortunately I disagree. However, thinking that investing 18 million per year for a Clowney - keeping Vernon at 15.5 million in addition to Clowney and not addressing the 3rd most vital position with a 7-year straight Pro Bowl LT at the 3rd most valued position on a team doesn't make sense to me. I, like you, am waiting to see what the FO does over the next couple weeks. It could be the difference between a playoff team or another top 10 draft pick depending what they do. They obviously have some huge holes to fill and have done a pretty good job so far. Excited to see what else is on the plate. .

steve,

How do you REALLY feel about the Browns signing TW? (just kidding )

Once again you've put forth a nice argument on TW. I just believe that whether we get TW or Jason Peters we will still spend our 1st or 2nd on a LT. TW has a fair amount of unknown on the health dept...but I won't be upset if we go get him so long as we don't trade away anything higher than the 3rd we get from Houston to get him.

I am as leery as anyone of Clowney...but with Vernon on the last year of his deal, we could probably swing the cap hit and keep them both. That would make for one heck of a DL - on paper anyway. (I'm going to make a prediction that Chad Thomas plays as much - or more - inside as he does outside this year.) We could get another year out of Vernon and maybe get a Comp pick after he moves on?

It's interesting that the 'Scouts & Coaches' ranking you showed has the RG as the most important OL position after the Ts. Just another dagger in the trade that got rid of Zeitler and brought us Corbett...then Kush...then Teller. Jettisoning Zeitler and pairing Corbett/Kush with Hubbard was an epic fail.

Clowney to me would be another version
Of Dwayne Bowe and Kenny Britt
Throw a ton of money at a guy who is only looking for one last great payday
And who's desire to give 100% is non existent
Clowney is more name than " game"
His motor is a 4 cyl and your paying
For a 6.2
Vernons best days are over
Another overhyped acquisition by the Homer crew

Talent wise Jadeveon Clowney is a clear upgrade over Olivier Vernon for 2020 and future years. There is definitely concern over injuries for Clowney (as there is with Vernon) but his price has probably gotten to the point where it's worth the risk. Something like $40 guaranteed over four years with little money guaranteed over the last two years makes a lot of sense at this point. I don't agree with the perception that Clowney won't play hard as he has been a very good player as long as he has been healthy.





https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jadeveon-clowney/8636

Clowney might be a risk ... associating him with Bowe or Britt is flat wrong.

You are making me dribble ... call me crazy - but landing Clowney, keeping Vernon and landing Simmons would provide a phenomenal pass rush on 3rd and medium/long. Rushing only 5 - Richards + MG in the middle, Vernon and Clowney on the edges and Simmons darting through a gap or looping outside of one of the edges who crash to the inside .... now bring a safety up or the nickel CB blitzes .... Probably a pipe dream. Or the same look at have Simmons drop into zone coverage to take away short underneath routes.

I agree .. if we could get Simmons our defense is improved greatly.

I like your post because it is logical and I get your are quoting someone else, but I will never agree that RG is more important than a LG and even a center. The center is responsible for making the line calls and that is huge.

I do want to point out that an Edge rusher is far more valuable than a RG in almost every list made by anyone who can even sniff a clue about football.

Is there a list somewhere that claims a RG is more valuable than an Edge? Certainly not in steve's list. Those professionals have Edge well above RG...but RG is THE #1 interior guy as listed by these particular professionals.

I have outright said I am in favor of seeing what it takes to address our need at LT AND get Simmons.

look, we have a LOT of capital to play in here. Our Cap position is good, and importantly, one of our division rivals does not have a first round pick this year. It's time to be innovative, aggressive and make strong lasting moves.