Good stuff there. I've always had a good understanding of foot/feet placement as that translates into many sports - although the choppy steps thing was new to me .
What I hadn't thought of was the chest-over-thighs thing and keeping the elbows in. Trying that stance at 50+ isn't very natural. I imagine there are some very large, young men who might struggle with that chest-over-thighs thing being re-programmed into their muscle memory and brain. I assume you will touch on that when commenting on attributes.
I think a lot of the struggle that's outlined in the article can be mitigated by allowing teams to build and maintain a pipeline of talent. With the roster size restrictions, it's really hard to grab a guy and hang onto him while he learns the things he should've (and used to) learn in the college game. The whole microwave approach to player development just doesn't work for many positions. Established olinemen are always going to be poached during FA, and that's as it should be, but I think it should be far easier to hang onto guys to develop behind them. Those roster spots (not the 53, but the one after that) are so valuable, not because it's expensive but because there are so few and you have to pick and choose who to keep because of an artificial limit.
With other teams allowed to sign players off of your practice squad, I think PS sizes should be much larger, to allow for continuity.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I imagine there are some very large, young men who might struggle with that chest-over-thighs thing being re-programmed into their muscle memory and brain. I assume you will touch on that when commenting on attributes.
I will try and answer this now and then do the attributes this evening.
It is hard to keep your chest over your thighs. You have to bend your knees and lean forward a tad at the waist. That isn't a natural move, but it's huge because it provides:
--Good balance --Leverage
Joe Thomas is probably the best I ever saw at this. It was one of the reasons I was so high on him leading up to the NFL draft.
You mentioned that it was hard to do for a 50 year old man and that some big, young guys would struggle w/it, too. They do struggle. Especially when they get tired. Mechanics go to hell when you are tired. Also, a lot of those bigger dudes have relied on power their entire life. They could easily push dudes around in youth football, middle school, and high school. Some can do it in college. Cam Erving is a classic example of that kind of guy. He never perfected his technique and I remember Bentley and Joe T getting on him about it.
Related to that is that a lot of guys get sloppy w/their technique. You have probably read reports on linemen "playing too high," or "lunging," or "feet get sloppy," etc.
mac's first video has some very good footage of Joe Thomas. The visual will help you better than my words. As you watch it, even when they are not talking about it, try and focus in how Joe keeps his chest over his thighs and how balanced he is. It also helps him get lower than the defender. It's classic stuff. You really see it in pass pro and you can tell how balanced he is.
Here is the link again for anyone who wants to view the video. It has a ton of good stuff in it besides just the chest over thighs thing.
One more thing, when I talk about attributes tonight, I will talk about feet. Listen to some of the comments from opposing defenders about Joe's feet. It will give you something else to think about and why they are so important.
Nice info Vers .. you’re the go-to OL guy on here for sure.
Could you do all of us a favor in the next few weeks (and maybe you have and I didn’t see it) ... could you watch a bit of film of the top few OTs and let us know your rankings.
Wirfs Wills Becton Thomas
Let us know who we should hope to draft!
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
I don't want to turn this into a draft thread and I have made a few posts on the OL thread in the Draft forum, but I'll throw this out there real quick since you asked so nicely.
I haven't done a ton of research and I started late, but I like Thomas the best. I like his feet and technique. I have Becton after Wills and Whirfs. But, I haven't done enough research to be a great source right now.
Also, this part ties into one of the talking points of this thread. It's getting harder and harder to evaluate collegiate offensive linemen. It used to be pretty easy.
I will try to post more on the OL thread in the Draft forum as I learn more. I'll try and include some videos. That helps provide a visual.
Awesome appreciate it. I’ve read that Thomas is the best fit for a LT ... but don’t know the particulars. I’ll keep track of the draft thread thanks
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
I had an opportunity several years ago to watch the Browns in that band box they call a training facility. Joe T and Schwartz were doing pass sets.There were a mirror image of each other.The difference being Mitchel was a click slower with his footwork. It was obvious Joe had helped him along.
Alright.........time for attributes. A lot of OL guys agree my takes. Others rate some other attributes higher. So, I am not saying these are facts. It's just what I looked at when I was scouting.
I will say that these attributes vary by position. For instance, brute strength is way more important for a RG than it is a LT or C. Quick feet are way more important to a LT than any of the other positions. Agility is very important to a LG. Decent feet and strength are attributes of good RTs.
I'm going to focus in on LTs in this particular post and will gladly branch off to other positions if people have questions. I will say that my list of attributes are important to all positions along the line. Some more than others.
1. I go back and forth on number one, but I am going to say pad level. Balance, technique, flexibility, being a natural knee bender and having flexible hips are huge. Playing w/leverage is probably the most important thing for o-linemen. We talked earlier about Joe Thomas and how he got his chest over his thighs. We saw mac's video. Joe bent his knees and had flexible hips. That's huge. We all know this deep down, right? Try lifting something heavy w/out bending your knees. Then, try it while bending your knees. Most kids have wrestled. Low man wins, right?
2. Footwork. I think this is huge for LT's in particular, but also all of the positions on the line. A guy w/quick feet can off-set most everything a pass rusher or run stuffer can do. We heard the pass rushers from opposing teams talking about how great Joe T's feet were.
3. Hand placement. It's important to get your outside hand outside on the defender, whether it be the arm, shoulder, hip, or thigh. The inside hand should be right under the bottom of the outside shoulder pad. You want to prevent the defender from getting outside. We often talk about outside containment for Edge dudes. Well, the OT wants to make sure he can't get outside. In the running game, I like gap/angle blocking. This is where you go downhill and you want to aim your facemask for the defenders far armpit. You drive him while using your back arm so it looks like a chicken wing and helps prevent him from spinning and getting free. This is where the chop, chop, chop comes into play.
4. Intelligence. I like smart guys on the line. Especially in zone blocking schemes like we used to run when I was coaching. The Browns are supposedly running a ZBS this upcoming year, right? I think that is right??? Anyway, intelligence is a big factor on understanding how, where, and when to block. This isn't some dumb-ass man blocking where you hope you overpower a dude. Btw...........some OL coaches love man blocking and I'm probably making them mad w/this one. LOL
5. Agility. I like guys who have the ability to do combination blocks. That is where you chip your buddies guy and then proceed to the second level to take care of a LBer or safety. Agility is also very good for guys pulling and getting down the field to spring runners for larger gains.
6. Strength. I don't place as much importance on this as some others, but man, having great strength is an asset. I don't think I have to explain this one. We all get it.
I did not proofread that at all. I hope there aren't too many mistakes. My mind was kinda burnt. You can point out my mistakes and I'll try to fix them.
Thanks for that breakdown. I like looking at attributes like that so I can visualize.
Two questions:
1. Do you think agility will be more highly regarded with our staff? I remember back with Shanahan and the ZBS he placed agility at a premium (which is why Mack excelled IIRC)
2. Your importance of intelligence is something not many people would think much about ... Do you think that’s the reason why CONTINUITY is so important? Because the group of 5 can think together and understand defensive fronts/blitzes and recognize them quicker
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
Those are great questions. Very astute. I'll try and answer. Not sure if I'm right.
Quote:
1. Do you think agility will be more highly regarded with our staff? I remember back with Shanahan and the ZBS he placed agility at a premium (which is why Mack excelled IIRC)
Great question. I wasn't positive, but we are going to run a ZBS this year, right? If so, then hell yes agility is important. Mack was good at it and he followed Shanny to Hotlanta. Joe T was also excellent in that area. In a ZBS, you have a lot of combination blocks and guys have to not just block men, but areas or space. Thus agility is huge!!!
Quote:
2. Your importance of intelligence is something not many people would think much about ... Do you think that’s the reason why CONTINUITY is so important? Because the group of 5 can think together and understand defensive fronts/blitzes and recognize them quicker
Yes, that is part of it in my opinion. A lot of continuity has to do w/reps. I keep saying this, but think of synchronized swimming or a chorus line. In a ZBS especially, working cohesively is huge. Of course, dumb guys can blow that to pieces. But, it's more about reps. I'm hoping we pick a starting five early and roll w/them. Last year's staff did way too much shuffling. That was dumb!
Good questions, young man. A true sign of intelligence is knowing what to ask.
Problem being college players don't play against NFL type defenses either. The talent and speed of pass rush specialists and more complex and disguised defenses seem to be more where the problem is. Dumbing down your OL will only cause defenses to tear up NFL QB's.
They play against them in college. Most people are faster when younger Even 5-6 years.
Most people are faster when younger that older.
Fast defenders came out of the SEC back in the day. So did the spread type O to counter.
I am not arguing, complaining, or anything else. I am just saying the game of football has evolved, and the NFL is lagging in that evolution.
They want to keep playing their game, but they keep getting players who don't play that game.
Except what's the first thing every rookie says when asked about their first year?
Everyone is so much faster.
I agree with you. Doesn't that go for every position though?
To a degree. I think NFL O line schemes are still based on slower play I think O linemen today need to be able to play zone blocking. Many teams don't or can't.
Quickness over strength is a advantage. You don't always have to push a player out of the way. Many times all you need to do is get in the way.
Backs are pretty quick. It's not like you have to hold blocks for 5 seconds. I practiced Judo. As soon as they move off the initial attack, you can move them 5 yards down field or put them on the ground depending on body position....good wrestlers know what I am talking about. It's all about leverage. Know where the off balance point is and take the advantage. Their off balance point is usually right in to your center of balance. Put them on the ground then jab a elbow in the throat, chin, or chest.
People don't just flip people over the hip. They get in to position to do so.
Being the strongest is best some of the time. Being the quickest is best most of the time.
I am talking about things being somewhat equal. Sure a 150 lb class wrestler isn't going to beat many heavyweights.
I would be pretty happy with 285 lb O linemen. You can work with that
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I imagine there are some very large, young men who might struggle with that chest-over-thighs thing being re-programmed into their muscle memory and brain. I assume you will touch on that when commenting on attributes.
I will try and answer this now and then do the attributes this evening.
It is hard to keep your chest over your thighs. You have to bend your knees and lean forward a tad at the waist. That isn't a natural move, but it's huge because it provides:
--Good balance --Leverage
Joe Thomas is probably the best I ever saw at this. It was one of the reasons I was so high on him leading up to the NFL draft.
You mentioned that it was hard to do for a 50 year old man and that some big, young guys would struggle w/it, too. They do struggle. Especially when they get tired. Mechanics go to hell when you are tired. Also, a lot of those bigger dudes have relied on power their entire life. They could easily push dudes around in youth football, middle school, and high school. Some can do it in college. Cam Erving is a classic example of that kind of guy. He never perfected his technique and I remember Bentley and Joe T getting on him about it.
Related to that is that a lot of guys get sloppy w/their technique. You have probably read reports on linemen "playing too high," or "lunging," or "feet get sloppy," etc.
mac's first video has some very good footage of Joe Thomas. The visual will help you better than my words. As you watch it, even when they are not talking about it, try and focus in how Joe keeps his chest over his thighs and how balanced he is. It also helps him get lower than the defender. It's classic stuff. You really see it in pass pro and you can tell how balanced he is.
Here is the link again for anyone who wants to view the video. It has a ton of good stuff in it besides just the chest over thighs thing.
One more thing, when I talk about attributes tonight, I will talk about feet. Listen to some of the comments from opposing defenders about Joe's feet. It will give you something else to think about and why they are so important.
I don't think he wants to be, but Joe Thomas needs to be a coach in Cleveland ASAP
Wouldn't that be great. Dude is so intelligent. He was not the greatest physical specimen, but if you look at my prioritizing of attributes in this thread, you would be hard-pressed to not think of Joe Thomas in all but the last one.
To any and all OL gurus, former coaches/scouts/players...how much of the technique and 'intelligence' is something that a guy either is born with or not? I don't want to use the word instinct - because I think that's a little silly sometimes - but it's the best word I can think of at the moment.
I'm not suggesting that a guy cannot learn the technique or learn the thinking part of the game, but some guys just never get that...our former guy G Rob comes to mind. How many different coaches have tried to get THAT guy to get it?
Conversely, when Joe Thomas talks about it it's as if he always knew it...as in always and from the get-go. Not that he didn't work his asterisk off to be the best at it...but man...it comes from him like breathing or a heart beating.
Hard to say for sure. It has to vary from player to player. It is also one of the reasons why I included intelligence as an important attribute. Some guys struggle w/learning. Others don't want to invest the time.
I have always thought that naturally big and strong guys can have a tougher time because their high school coaches don't emphasize teaching the techniques and nuances of the position because they are already dominating the competition.
To any and all OL gurus, former coaches/scouts/players...how much of the technique and 'intelligence' is something that a guy either is born with or not? I don't want to use the word instinct - because I think that's a little silly sometimes - but it's the best word I can think of at the moment.
I'm not suggesting that a guy cannot learn the technique or learn the thinking part of the game, but some guys just never get that...our former guy G Rob comes to mind. How many different coaches have tried to get THAT guy to get it?
Conversely, when Joe Thomas talks about it it's as if he always knew it...as in always and from the get-go. Not that he didn't work his asterisk off to be the best at it...but man...it comes from him like breathing or a heart beating.
Hopefully this post doesn't kick the thread off into the draft direction, but I would imagine that evaluating technique doesn't impact how much you like or dislike a potential pick, but just where you want to pick him. If Olinemen can fall in the draft because they're not strong enough, and need to spend a year in an NFL strength program before they're ready to go, I can't imagine approaching a guy that needs to work on his technique any differently (other than technique being more important).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Hard to say for sure. It has to vary from player to player. It is also one of the reasons why I included intelligence as an important attribute. Some guys struggle w/learning. Others don't want to invest the time.
I have always thought that naturally big and strong guys can have a tougher time because their high school coaches don't emphasize teaching the techniques and nuances of the position because they are already dominating the competition.
I can see that. I HAVE seen that in other sports where I know the details a lot better. Those coaches aren't doing those naturally big, strong, powerful, guys any service by ignoring technique just because they are already dominant.
I'm no sports coaching guru, but when I did coach various sports as my kids were growing up, I never let a kid - even my own kid - slide or benefit simply because he/she was bigger/stronger/faster/quicker than other kids. I found things that they needed to work on and pushed them to deal with that. However, guys getting paid to coach in high school + have to do what they have to do in a limited amount of time...I suppose.
To any and all OL gurus, former coaches/scouts/players...how much of the technique and 'intelligence' is something that a guy either is born with or not? I don't want to use the word instinct - because I think that's a little silly sometimes - but it's the best word I can think of at the moment.
I'm not suggesting that a guy cannot learn the technique or learn the thinking part of the game, but some guys just never get that...our former guy G Rob comes to mind. How many different coaches have tried to get THAT guy to get it?
Conversely, when Joe Thomas talks about it it's as if he always knew it...as in always and from the get-go. Not that he didn't work his asterisk off to be the best at it...but man...it comes from him like breathing or a heart beating.
Hopefully this post doesn't kick the thread off into the draft direction, but I would imagine that evaluating technique doesn't impact how much you like or dislike a potential pick, but just where you want to pick him. If Olinemen can fall in the draft because they're not strong enough, and need to spend a year in an NFL strength program before they're ready to go, I can't imagine approaching a guy that needs to work on his technique any differently (other than technique being more important).
Excellent point. I'll add that I do recollect reading about a prospect who needs some time in an NFL weight program to get stronger...but not so much recollection about a guy needing time in a technique-learing camp/school/etc.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
Alright.........time for attributes. A lot of OL guys agree my takes. Others rate some other attributes higher. So, I am not saying these are facts. It's just what I looked at when I was scouting.
I will say that these attributes vary by position. For instance, brute strength is way more important for a RG than it is a LT or C. Quick feet are way more important to a LT than any of the other positions. Agility is very important to a LG. Decent feet and strength are attributes of good RTs.
I'm going to focus in on LTs in this particular post and will gladly branch off to other positions if people have questions. I will say that my list of attributes are important to all positions along the line. Some more than others.
1. I go back and forth on number one, but I am going to say pad level. Balance, technique, flexibility, being a natural knee bender and having flexible hips are huge. Playing w/leverage is probably the most important thing for o-linemen. We talked earlier about Joe Thomas and how he got his chest over his thighs. We saw mac's video. Joe bent his knees and had flexible hips. That's huge. We all know this deep down, right? Try lifting something heavy w/out bending your knees. Then, try it while bending your knees. Most kids have wrestled. Low man wins, right?
2. Footwork. I think this is huge for LT's in particular, but also all of the positions on the line. A guy w/quick feet can off-set most everything a pass rusher or run stuffer can do. We heard the pass rushers from opposing teams talking about how great Joe T's feet were.
3. Hand placement. It's important to get your outside hand outside on the defender, whether it be the arm, shoulder, hip, or thigh. The inside hand should be right under the bottom of the outside shoulder pad. You want to prevent the defender from getting outside. We often talk about outside containment for Edge dudes. Well, the OT wants to make sure he can't get outside. In the running game, I like gap/angle blocking. This is where you go downhill and you want to aim your facemask for the defenders far armpit. You drive him while using your back arm so it looks like a chicken wing and helps prevent him from spinning and getting free. This is where the chop, chop, chop comes into play.
4. Intelligence. I like smart guys on the line. Especially in zone blocking schemes like we used to run when I was coaching. The Browns are supposedly running a ZBS this upcoming year, right? I think that is right??? Anyway, intelligence is a big factor on understanding how, where, and when to block. This isn't some dumb-ass man blocking where you hope you overpower a dude. Btw...........some OL coaches love man blocking and I'm probably making them mad w/this one. LOL
5. Agility. I like guys who have the ability to do combination blocks. That is where you chip your buddies guy and then proceed to the second level to take care of a LBer or safety. Agility is also very good for guys pulling and getting down the field to spring runners for larger gains.
6. Strength. I don't place as much importance on this as some others, but man, having great strength is an asset. I don't think I have to explain this one. We all get it.
This is pretty much the way I see it and I played on the line.
My personal favorite for #1 would be balance all on it's own. You could score pretty high on most of the rest of the list and it will all be for naught if you don't have good balance.
It's almost impossible to have good footwork, hand placement, pad level, and even speed without balance. Speed comes into play by being balanced in your stance and keeping your balance through your first step.
If you look into the backgrounds of a lot of lineman, you'll find a lot of former wrestlers, or martial artists. Those two sports also focus on balance and guys that learn balance there do well as lineman.
I wasn't the biggest or strongest guy, but I held my own because I did have great balance and was very good at getting a bigger and stronger guy off balance.(That's more about technique)
Also communication belongs on that list somewhere as well. You can be the most intelligent guy in the world and recognize and pick-up a stunting LB or DB and leave a guy free and clear to kill your QB if don't communicate what you see to the guy next to you.
Last edited by DeputyDawg; 04/09/2004:44 PM. Reason: typo
The next thing I would like to talk about is the CBA and how it affects the OL.
As I mentioned earlier, no unit needs more reps than the OL. Offensive lines must work cohesively. This is HUGE!!!!
So, the CBA takes away practice time and where does that leave the OL? I say that it puts them in a precarious position because they are not as in-sync as they should be.
I have said this many times, but it can't be emphasized enough. Continuity among the OL is extremely important. These guys need reps working together. It's like a synchronized swim team or a chorus line. Everything must be done in unison. This is especially true in a ZBS.
The next thing I would like to talk about is the CBA and how it affects the OL.
As I mentioned earlier, no unit needs more reps than the OL. Offensive lines must work cohesively. This is HUGE!!!!
So, the CBA takes away practice time and where does that leave the OL? I say that it puts them in a precarious position because they are not as in-sync as they should be.
I have said this many times, but it can't be emphasized enough. Continuity among the OL is extremely important. These guys need reps working together. It's like a synchronized swim team or a chorus line. Everything must be done in unison. This is especially true in a ZBS.
Good point. It is critical. Good communication isn't always verbal, or a hand signal. The best communication is simply a look in the eyes and a nod.
When you are thinking as a unit, that is all it takes.
It takes some time, but a cohesive unit is a thing of beauty.
I always think back to the Redskins line when guys like May and Jacoby were the anchors. It was something to behold. The "Hogs" were special. Put Theisman, Riggo, and Timmy Smith behind and it was pretty special.
In the 4th quarter, no defender wanted to see Riggins breaking open and running towards them. He was a punisher.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I think another problem for NFL offensive lines is the lack of continuity on most OLs across the league. Teams used to keep the their lines together. But, player movement has changed that.
Earlier, I mentioned intelligence as an attribute. Think about all the things the OL has to do. Not only must you be in a good stance, display good hand placement, use good footwork, etc... but, you have to make your own pre-snap reads. The center position is big for that, but all the guys have to be on the same page. I will also mention that the QB is also responsible for these pre-snap reads. The OL has to recognize fronts, who the Mike is, where possible blitzes are coming from, potential Xs and stunts, etc.
That is a lot of responsibility. And the thing is that the OL has to do that cohesively. They have to know when to slide to help a teammate or pass a defender on to another guy. They must orchestrate their movements in-sync.
That takes a lot of practice time and it involves trusting your fellow linemen to all be on the same page. Changing lineups due to losing free agents, injuries, retirement, and poor performance all hinder the development and cohesiveness of solid OL play.
I think the Brown's coaches did a terrible job of handling the unit last year. Too much shuffling of the personnel. I hope that this year's staff picks out their starting 5 early and then stays w/that group to allow them to build chemistry and develop cohesiveness.
I think another problem for NFL offensive lines is the lack of continuity on most OLs across the league. Teams used to keep the their lines together. But, player movement has changed that.
Earlier, I mentioned intelligence as an attribute. Think about all the things the OL has to do. Not only must you be in a good stance, display good hand placement, use good footwork, etc... but, you have to make your own pre-snap reads. The center position is big for that, but all the guys have to be on the same page. I will also mention that the QB is also responsible for these pre-snap reads. The OL has to recognize fronts, who the Mike is, where possible blitzes are coming from, potential Xs and stunts, etc.
That is a lot of responsibility. And the thing is that the OL has to do that cohesively. They have to know when to slide to help a teammate or pass a defender on to another guy. They must orchestrate their movements in-sync.
That takes a lot of practice time and it involves trusting your fellow linemen to all be on the same page. Changing lineups due to losing free agents, injuries, retirement, and poor performance all hinder the development and cohesiveness of solid OL play.
I think the Brown's coaches did a terrible job of handling the unit last year. Too much shuffling of the personnel. I hope that this year's staff picks out their starting 5 early and then stays w/that group to allow them to build chemistry and develop cohesiveness.
Very good post, Vers. Of all the 'sub-units' on a team, the OLine probably has a greater degree of inter-dependency than any other...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 04/11/2009:11 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
No doubt cohesiveness is a big factor on the O-line. Probably more so than the overall talent of the players on the line. Obviously there are limits to how weak the talent levels are.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I love the ZBS until someone gets injured then it unravels. I also think defenses have learned how to defend it better.
As you all know I seldom post anymore it's the same group of guys making the same points but I do enjoy these types of threads because they are informative.
I have been watching our games from 2014 on game pass. As many of you know that was the season that Shanny was our OC. What stood out to me was when Mack went down we never were as effective running the ZBS. They 1st slid Greico into Macks spot but Grieco couldn't handle big strong nose tackles.
What did work well and that I really liked was they often rolled Hoyer to the left while giving the impression they were running right (play-action) this left Hoyer on the left of the formation alone or with a lone defender running towards him, but it created wide-open spaces for him to throw from it required him to pivot around in a circle after going to his right to start with had Hoyer had better footwork and a stronger arm he would have been much more lethal. He did well but when I imagine Mayfield running this style of offense with better backs he should have a monster year barring injury to the O Line.
What I don't like about the ZBS is the movement required by its nature I think it creates for lack of a better term unnatural pileups like the one that ended Macks season. In man blocking there are far fewer O Line injuries IMO.
Depth along the O Line will be critical and the pieces need to work together with a new right tackle and left tackle and what is sure to shape up as a brief pre-season assuming we have a season (unlikely) is bound to set this unit back quite a bit.
My bet is we struggle with the ZBS to start and if we can stay healthy on the O Line will get better as the season moves along.?????
If you have game-pass and some time I would highly recommend going back and watching some of those games.
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
Nice post, BttB. Good to hear from you and read a football post.
I am a fan of the ZBS. I'm not sure about guys getting injured more, but I think you made a good point that injuries can really hurt the ZBS. I think that is true because cohesion is so important to its success.
I am not sure Stef is anywhere close to Shanny in play design and scheme, but I have read other posters making that comparison. I'll wait and see...
I loved watching our O when Shanny was here. Beautiful concepts. He had success in the ATL and last year's SF team was a thing of beauty.
Also, you made a very good call on the plays that looked like we going to run right and Hoyer would boot to the left. One of the coolest things about those plays is where the backside TE would be area blocking on the second level after chipping the Edge on most of the plays where we were running stretch plays to the right. Then, Shanny would have the TE start to do the same thing and take off down the field, leaving him wide open. You probably remember me talking about his route tree. That was one such example of his genius.
The whole ZBS OL health/injury/depth thing is quite interesting. Didn't the 49ers and another ZBS team (I can't remember for sure) recently cut a vet OL? And maybe even a starter?
Also, does anyone remember if Hubbard has a rep as having the athletic traits useful in a ZBS? Even if at a non-starter level? Maybe that helped him stick here after cutting a new deal?
Colby Gossett (sp?) was on one of those OL lists recently posted as a highly thought-of OL but I forget the context of that list now. I belive he is a good candidate for the ZBS. Maybe that explains why he continues to stick around?
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