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One thing I thought of last night: Any word on Higgins? Is there a chance we could bring him back ... maybe there isnt a market for him

It's not yet time for him.

Once the draft is over, and teams assess their WR depth, there will be a market for him. WR is one of the stronger positions in this draft, but teams will have a place for a guy like Higgins, who can make the tough catch, and who runs good routes. Maybe we'll look to re-sign him here once the dust settles, and the Browns brain trust re-evaluate their post-draft rosters.

Yeah that makes sense. Looking at it from his perspective: if I’m going to be a #3 WR and receive a 2 year deal, I’d rather stay in CLE if the money is equal.

Of course, maybe a WR needy team like Green Bay will make him a better offer

To a point on the other thread...I am sure Callahan has input, maybe even a little more than a average position coach, but they don't pull any triggers.

This year isn't normal, but even when it is I don't think position coaches are even in the draft room. There is no point in doing so. Any input they might have happens during the evaluation process.

j/c




The pick we got for Schwartz was involved in the deal that netted us Chubb.

Thank god KJ turned lemons into lemonade ...

Getting a 4th round pick in the next years draft was definitely a great return for Mitch ...

Here are the details of the trade:




The reality of the situation was that Schwartz was worth more than a 4th round Compensatory pick. No matter how it's spun.

We also had at least two 4th round picks and probably three that year ...

We received a 4th round pick for Gipson also ... the pick we got for Gipson was 8 spots ahead of the one we got for Schwartz ...

I also think the menZas used a 3rd rnd compensatory pick in the Collins trade ...

So KJ cleans there mess up letting Mitch walk By turning it into Nick and they spent a better pick for Jamie ... huh ... and that about sums up the difference between the two ...

I’m out now ... not what this threads about and I’m sick of this crap .. i can’t even make a joke anymore w/o the sashiettres getting there panties in a wad ...

I promise that I won't get annoyed with you, Diam, but I will get even....eventually. ,

And it's funny how you're the only who keeps bringing it up.

I take it you haven't been reading the board lately.

Actually, Memphis started this conversation. Just like he--or you--always do.

Stop with the nonsense. I showed where all our comp picks came from since 1995 after someone else mentioned liking the approach.

You ran with the "what was their record?" crap. Then your boy brought up Schwartz out of left field.

You always bring up the Sashi years like they were so smart. It's your agenda. Then, you tried and act like losing those guys didn't have an effect on the record.

Btw...........losing Schwartz wasn't out of left field. It was how we obtained one of those coveted comp picks.

Just let it go, man. It's over.

Again, and more slowly this time....

1. Someone posted that they liked the comp pick strategy some teams employ.
2. I showed that we ranked 31 out of 32 teams in comp picks since 1995 and had a total of 12.
3. I mentioned 8 of the comp picks came in 2016 and 2017 under the same regime.
4. I mentioned the other 4 picks came in 2012.
5. You ran with "what was their record" like it had relevance to the comp pick history or approach from the Browns or other teams.

I can read just fine. I have a Masters in English. I have written works that are published.

You may think that acquiring a ton of comp picks is "smart." I disagree. Thus, I pointed to our record when the "smart" guys let all those good player leave.

And btw...........the last sentence is a quote from you:



One more time...................I will gladly let this stupid ass regime war thing go, but you keep bringing it up. But, if you want to continue, then I should be able to respond.

I firmly believe acquiring those Comp picks in place of losing guys like Alex Mack, Schwartz, and Gipson were not "smart" moves. You can disagree. That's fine. But, I am not crazy for thinking otherwise.

This. Vers and diam are the ones always bringing up Sashi and then blame everyone else for talking about him.

Memphis brought up Sashi. I have established that.

If only this was true. People can clearly go back to the closed thread and see this for themselves. I'll leave them to do just that.

Actually, here was my post.



It was in response to this:



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1746435/9

For once we agree. You are the one who brought it up. You have done it in multiple threads.

I will try one more time and then move on............if you and the others let it go.........so will I. But, if you continue to proclaim how much smarter that group was than others........I will challenge that assertion.

One more time........acquiring Comp picks due to losing guys like Mack, Scwartz, and Gipson is not my idea of "smart."

Guess I will bite ... did you say that letting good players go for comp picks was a smart strategy? If you did I missed it. I thought you just posted facts.

* I will add - letting starters go for comp picks is not a good idea in my opinion. I don't think that was the case with all those comp picks - but that's a different convo.

Let me guess. I did not post facts. Because I could have sworn that we did go 1 an 31 after acquiring those comp picks. I could have sworn that we let Schwartz, Mack, Gipson, Benji, and others go in order to get those comp picks.

We could have been cool if both sides just stated their opinions. But a couple of posters chose to take another route.

Please! The record was almost certainly affected by letting some of those players move on in FA.

I didn't say you did or didn't post facts. Thanks

What I said was I didn't see where Memphis said letting starters go for comp picks was smart. You DID insinuate that was Memphis's messaging. Thanks

Exactly.

See - here - I agree, if we let Mack and Schwartz and Gipson go in order to get Comp picks it was really dumb. But I don't actually see anywhere that a case was made that it was smart to let good players go in order to gain comp picks.

If I missed it - cut and paste it. No need for the drama.

So why did you make a post insinuating that I implied you didn't post facts? Not sure why you are so unhinged tonight. You've been mostly sticking to great football takes recently.

See, that's the thing for me. I don't think anyone is saying it was smart to get comp picks for Mack, Gipson, or Schwartz.

Why that assumption is made I don't know. Perhaps you can shed light.

I don't think it's a good idea, but I do think it's a good idea to take advantage of comp picks if necessary when you can.

I think we all knew that Mack was leaving in 2 years when we transitioned him and retained him with the contract Jacksonville offered him. I don't blame "that regime" for not retaining Mack. But I can see where some would want to.

Since you brought it up, however, I think during the beginning stages of the rebuild, "that regime" did a very nice job trading and signing players that wouldn't count against the compensatory picks to gain additional assets...since that was the plan all along.

If you think Dorsey did a good job, then it paid off. So really there isn't any argument to be had.

Yes. To mend my point, these players weren't let go with the sole intention to acquire compensatory picks. At least Mack and Schwartz were not.

Gaining compensatory picks for them instead of nothing at all was probably smart, however.

Okay guys.................as long as we agree that letting better players go for Comp picks is not a good idea.........then there is nothing to argue about.

However, if one wants to insinuate that obtaining Comp picks is a good idea w/out providing additional information to give proper context, I will speak up again.

Have a nice night, fellas.

Amend.

Yes. Thank you.

Situations change based on talent on team and cap/upcoming finances.

And no question losing Schwartz was a mistake. That was just stupid. I wish someone would get Berry's take on the situation. I bet he'd say it was a mistake. I don't think we had a chance for Alex Mack. And I believe he couldn't be franchised. Losing Gipson sucked, but probably was the best of the three.

This comp pick stuff seems a little silly to me and I highly doubt the Browns ever had any thought process where they said to themselves; "Oh, let him go so we can get a comp pick." I also remember that Schwartz took a lessor deal from KCC than what the Browns offered just to get away. Mack wanted a long term deal that the Browns were unwilling to offer. In both cases I believe the Browns let their contracts expire rather than bargain in good faith prior to the expiration (according to the players) that gave them an out and they took it. That unfortunately is the payback when you are constantly fielding a losing team.

Now to Vernon and a comp pick for him. Everyone has their own opinion. This is what I see: Vernon is oft injured and has not been close to living up to the contract he currently is being paid. 6 games missed, 26 tackles and 3 1/2 sacks for 15.5 million is not getting what you paid for. With bonuses, Vernon is scheduled to be paid 17-million in 2020. The Browns are obviously lookin to upgrade at the position or there wouldn't be the feelers out there. If they upgrade, I highly doubt Vernon stays on the team. Thinking that it's a smart business move to keep Vernon and his 17-million contract to get a comp pick for him is just plain crazy. What your saying is that the comp pick is more valuable than the 17-million.

The value of third-round contracts drops to $3.3 million, but takes an even bigger hit in guaranteed value, with the average contract worth just $756,000 in guaranteed money. Once a player falls past the third round, most draft picks will sign a 4-year deal in the $2.4-2.9 million range. A Vernon comp pick could be anywhere from a late 3rd to a 7th round pick. Compensatory free agents are determined by a proprietary formula, developed by the NFL Management Council, which considers a player’s salary, playing time and postseason honors.

So the value of that player if we get for the comp pick at the end of the 3rd round is most likely less than 3-million over 4-years (12-million or less) and the thought here is to spend 17-million on a former starter now in a backup role to get a 12-million dollar guy with a 12.5% chance or less of becoming a starter. That makes good business sense?

No, I did not. And I'm pretty sure most wouldn't insinuate that just to start something.

I've said several times not retaining Schwartz was a bad move. But I think there are teams who are able to leverage compensatory picks to their advantage that allows good players to leave their team who they may think are (1) overvalued in the market or (2) in the team's opinion overvalued at the position they play when team building. Often times available cap is a consideration as well. Those monsters contracts given to players in FA that a team won't pay helps them in the compensatory pick game.

J/c

With regards to comp picks or keeping players, it ultimately comes down to value like every other situation in roster management. Letting guys go isn't necessarily a problem. Letting guys go without adequate replacements is an issue. However, with a salary cap, you can't just keep everyone. Unfortunately, we've done a rather awful job of drafting and developing depth. We've also done a horrible job of winning which also increases the difficulty of convincing players to stay.

I have no idea why someone would point out that we ranked so poorly in comp picks under every regime but one and ranked 31st in the league in comp picks if they weren't advocating for comp picks. The math doesn't add up on that one.

PIT - thought this was all put to bed. But I see you want to try to rattle cages or poke the hornets nest? No-one is saying it's a good idea to let good players walk in order to get comp picks. Happy Easter, hope your day is good.

It always seems everyone wants to "put things to bed" when certain people get the last word but not others. When it's others, they're accused of being the people wishing to stir the hornets nest.

Once again, I stand by what I said. Maybe employ that same strategy on the other side next time.

Happy Easter.

Lots of good teams let good players walk... because they have someone ready to fill in their spot.

Bad teams are forced to overpay for FAs and STILL end up with holes.

Good post.

On a side note, if we cut Vernon, I don't believe we would get a comp pick. As with you, I don't think whatever comp pick we might get once he becomes a free agent is worth the 17 mil we pay him this year.

I would rather spend it on a guy like Clowney or trade for Yannick Ngakoue. Or, move up the Garrett talks and throw that 17 MIL at him in lump. It's already a part of our cap for this season. That is a pretty solid signing bonus that would allow us to sign him for just a little less. He is getting his security a year ealier and in return we get a bit of a discount because we are increasing our risk.

The franchise tag on DE's is $18 mil a year. Ngakoue was tagged for that and he isn't happy. He wants a long term deal. I am just not sure we can fit him in and still swing signing guys like baker and Chubb down the road.

I'll leave that up to Berry and Depo to figure out the best move to make there. They are chess players, and smart. They will bounce things around enough to figure out the best move, both now and moving forward.