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What the hell are you talking about?

I've said all along that this is the year that will tell the tale on Baker. Not his first year or his second year. You always give a QB three years to fully evaluate them.

In your own post you stated that Bakers passes sailed high a lot last year then contradicted yourself by saying you maintain he is one of the most accurate QB's in the NFL. You can't have it both ways.

What I've seen is that he has the potential to be a very accurate QB. We all saw that in his first season. We also saw his accuracy fall off last season. Even you admitted as much. So the jury is out.

Say what you will, but our run/pass ratio was almost identical from 2018 and 2019. No matter your playbook, your accuracy has nothing to do with it. Are you trying to say that your passes sailing high or not being accurate are a result of your playbook?

I don't know what your fascination is about me and Baker. I have given him much credit when he has performed well. I have shown when he has done poorly as well. But over and over again I have said you have to give a young QB three years.

You seem to be rather fixated on the play calling last year. And I certainly agree it should have been much better. We don't disagree. But when a QB throws the ball, his accuracy has nothing to do with the play calling. And no, I'm not going to give him a free pass when he says or does something stupid. Just like I wouldn't give a free pass to any other player. But I haven't heard anything like that for some time now so things seem to be improving on that part of things. I've said all along, even when commenting on those type of things that he was young and hopefully he would grow out of it. As of late that seems to be what I'm seeing. I hope that trend continues.

So if you wish to blame everyone but Baker for that, you go right ahead and do that. But I saw a story of two different Baker's. The 2018 Baker and the 2019 Baker. Which one ends up being the real Baker is anyone's guess at this point.

And no tab, we have FILM showing he performed poorly last season. Not just stats.

Very good post.

I don't necessarily think Baker is a system quarterback in the sense most are taking it. I do however think you have to run your offense to his strengths.

Baker isn't the tallest guy on the field, obviously. I feel much like was the problem with Hue, Freddie and co. didn't play to Baker's strengths. They insert these players expecting them to succeed with THEIR designed plays and system. Brees is also short, but he's successful because plays are designed to give him throwing lanes.

I'd imagine a lot of times when Baker left the pocket he couldn't see the field. I felt like we did a much better job of giving him those throwing lanes in '18 but not '19. I also think when he did have throwing lanes, he developed bad habits that superceded pocket presence and he still would exit the pocket. Kinda like golf when you start playing with shorter clubs and end up coming across the ball. Going back to longer clubs its still hard to stop coming across the ball. And when you lose concentration it's innate to go with what's comfortable without excess practice.

He was much better in the pocket 2018 than 2019. He will be better in 2020 than 2019. He's a hard working player and will do the things necessary to make him better on the field.

I also think as a young player, instead of coming in and being the voice and leader of the team he'd let Landry and OBJ influence him. Baker needs to be the leader of this team. Landry and OBJ need to let Baker lead this team. One of the reasons Baker was drafted #1 was his ability to lead. Remember?

Those adamant about saying Baker needs to shut up and just play football are wrong wrong wrong. Baker needs to speak up more. We need him to lead. Lead us. What happened to the pied piper? Where were the guys saying they'd run thru walls for the guy?

Regardless of how good you think Baker is in the NFL, Baker was excellent and efficient at the college level. He has all the tools to be elite at the NFL level. Let Baker be Baker. Players will follow and the team will win. The second the coaches, fans, owner want Baker to change who he is personally, then we wasted the #1 pick.

Let Baker lead, let Baker talk, let Baker "Baker" and we will win.

Actually you can.

I don't think those sailing passes are a natural characteristic of what Baker does. He's never not been accurate. I don't necessarily think footwork is the leading cause of the sailing passes. I just don't think he can see over the line on each throw. He's guessing. And that's not necessarily concerning and it's fixable.

I believe there's been a lot of inaccuracies in the assessment of Baker here. His footwork isn't that bad, but it could surely be fine tuned. Baker has shown the ability to read the field pre and post snap. Everything is faster at the NFL level. More refining of his abilities and continued play will help him immensely.

The new coaching staff is a question mark, but I do believe we finally have a guy who will play to players strengths rather than insert his "system" and make players adapt.

If he is managing to process post snap, it's at a slow rate. But if he can do it, it should speed up with experience. I haven't seen what you are describing but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

One would hope with a shorter QB he would slide slightly from side to side in order to see his target. I can't imagine a QB "guessing" at where he should be throwing the ball other than on a timing pattern. Even then he would have to see where the WR is in his route in order to know when to deliver the ball.

The 2018 Baker had shown signs of great accuracy. Last year not so much. And I certainly understand adapting your system to take advantage of your QB's best strengths. I believe that can have a great deal of impact in the W/L column. I do not however feel that makes your QB more or less accurate.

I don't think this is an accurate statement:



I think the protection was about average. PFF stats support my claim. I also think that Baker held the ball too long. Next gen stats support that. I also saw Baker abandon clean pockets and run himself into trouble. Tape shows that.

But, we are the ones w/an agenda.

Obviously.

I never said "how fast." I did say he still needs to refine his craft, didn't I?
All quarterbacks struggle with the transition to the NFL. Rest assured he's learning.

Mayfield does slide side to side. He moves in the pocket. It was much more prevalent in 18. In 19 he seemed to just bail on the pocket. He didnt nearly as much last season.

As far as "guessing," yes it happens and yes it's timing.

Baker is an accurate passer. Did he struggle with it last year? Sure, but that doesn't all of a sudden make him inaccurate.

Are you looking for an honest conversation or are you attempting to insult a poster like someone else always tries to do? I would love for you to prove me wrong and that you're not just here looking to argue about anything.

I'm really not looking to argue and actually felt, at least to this point, we had been having a reasonable discussion. I would hope that continues.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but here is where I found the reason for my point about "guessing".



See, what I'm saying is that even in a timing pattern you have to know where your WR is in his route in order to know when to throw the ball to get it to where the route is designed to work. As such, "guessing" where you're WR is I find disturbing. You simply have to know where he to know where to throw the ball. Now maybe I misunderstood what it is you were trying to say but I would hope you can see where I drew my conclusion from.

As for the post snap reads. As I said I haven't seen much if any evidence of it. Other than looking off to a second WR, I didn't see much of anything in the way of post snap reads. Even in terms of picking up blitzes it's something I felt was lacking. I would say maybe it's a matter of slow progressions as well.

Now I'm not trying to say who is right or wrong here. I'm simply saying we disagree on our perceptions of it. Hopefully we can disagree on things without the other one thinking someone is trying to start an argument.

J/C

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2019

I was watching NFL Network the other day and they were talking about how awful our oline was. They used some stats to backup their claims. I tried to find those stats but I couldn’t. What I found is what I posted above. Football Outsiders rated us about the same as PFF.

One rushing stat I found is that the Browns and Vikings both ran to the left more than the right. Overall NFL teams run the same amount of times to the left and right.

To this one specific point - it is one of the areas that most impressed me about the Rookie Baker Mayfield. Now, maybe a bit like Higgins, my memory might be influenced a bit by my fandom and remember 'the best' and accentuating those memories .... but during his first year Baker seemed to throw open receivers more than I have seen any other QB since the return. Baker was throwing the ball on timing routes before the WR was making his cut, with accuracy and placement like few in the NFL do.

After literally years and years of watching Browns QB wait for a WR to 'be open' before they threw the ball - seeing Baker make plays by throwing the ball to enable the WR to make his cut and get open and - bam - the ball was there ... that was a most welcome sight.

He was a rookie and as such he could be a little streaky at times. But when he was on he was on and his red zone numbers prove that. The red zone is clutch time. And when the pressure was on, he seemed to do well just as you described.

That's why anyone who suggests we give up on him at this stage I totally disagree with. We saw the potential he holds. The fact his timing and accuracy faltered in his second year is certainly a concern. Blaming that totally on Baker or removing any fault for that from Baker I feel is also a faulty premise.

It's somewhere in the middle and year three should certainly help the picture become clearer.

That's fair. I appreciate that.

Then yes, I don't think I conveyed my thought as I intended. Although, I did steal the term right from Steve Young's book. Perhaps "hoping" is a better term? Young said he couldn't see over the line and a lot of times "guessed" where the receiver should be. So yes, when he said he guessed I assumed he was referring to timing. Most of the times it was Rice he was "guessing" about.

I recall one touchdown Young commented on that he threw. He was essentially asked, "How did you see that guy?" referring to the receiver who caught the ball. His response was simple, "I didn't."

That's what I'm referencing. I read Young's book. He and Baker are essentially the same size. I'm assuming they face similar obstacles when playing quarterback in regards to their size.

The only difference I really see is that OL players are even larger now which may even increase the degree of difficulty. I will add that both he and Montana played with Rice a great deal. The familiarity and chemistry between those guys was well established which made knowing where he would be much more likely.

Hopefully we'll see that same thing develop with Landry, OBJ and Baker.

j/c:

This has been one of the better Baker conversations. Folks are being more reasonable.

I will make two statements. One from each side.

1. I don't agree that Baker was throwing receivers open on a consistent basis. I think he found more success when Freddie simplified the offense and had Baker throw to his first read very quickly. It's where some of us got the one-read thing from.

2. I get on Baker, but he deserves to be the unquestioned starter this year. I think he can be good. A lot will depend on his attitude and a lot on if he can improve on the mental parts of the game. But, I disagree w/guys like KOB, rasta, etc that we should move on from him. He has too much talent to make that mistake. I've been saying this for a long time, but this is most likely going to be a pivotal year for him, one way or the other.

And you get it any why it can be said without stretch that Higgy was Bakers go to guy. You mentioned the chemistry.

When things started to break down,

Someone else mentioned Brennan. Obviously Ozzie was the #1 target on the team, but Brennan had a way of crossing Bernie's sightlines, especially when things were getting wet in the pocket.

To me number #1 and go-to guy are different and it has nothing to do with catches or targets.

The go to guy is like a lifeboat. I know you are going to dig hard and be there and salvage this play.


In Mob terms, the go to guy isn't the top made-man. It's the goon who shows up, introduces himself as Mother Goose and rustles the trouble away. "Mr. Whoever is busy, you and I will go have a one way talk".

Have any of you guys even bothered to look at the numbers I posted from that season? Serious question.

It seems like people have their minds made up and are ignoring the reality of the situation. Far too prevalent around here.

Vers, This is about the 2018 season and the absence of the same last season.

I agree ... I was that guy who mentioned Brian Brennan as an illustration.

I've been rewatching some of those games this past week, and we normally think of the offense, of back in that day ... but man we really had some pretty good defenses in the mid to late 80s'.

Dawg, I think you are a good poster, but I posted the 2018 stats. He wasn't all that. I am not getting on you because again, I think you are a good poster, but scroll up and look at the numbers. Note how many game he had just 1 catch. Or, 3 or less.

What kills me is that I actually like Higgins. I was the dude saying we should draft him late. But man, things are getting twisted on here about the dude. If he was so great, why haven't we re-signed him or why hasn't another team snatched him up? It's not like he is going to demand big money like Clowney.

I'll stand firmly behind every word I said about the WR situation. I do know football and I can recognize coverages. It's irritating how many folks are ignoring that.

Oh okay Dawg, I misunderstood what you meant by last season.

Higgins picked a bad year to have a bad year in a contract year ... add that to a very deep Draft at the position placing him in the not so priority FA group of Veteran players.

He is never going to be confused with a great player, but I think that he is good enough to find a job somewhere, if not here.

My concern is with what we have behind our two starting WRs'

That might change here in the next couple of days.

Bump it to 3:20

The Greatest Catch Ever!!!!!!!!!!!

Outstanding!

It's all good. I think we misunderstood one another. I like Higgins. Again, I was the one guy saying we should draft him. I do hope we keep him. I just think some folks are overrating him and how much of an effect he had on our offense.

I think that his teammates like him too, but there are only so many roster spots come September, if we bring him back or not, and we are probably going to add more in the Draft and or UDFA.

I think sometimes some people rely on the raw stats and numbers without analyzing them.

Higgins was on the field for only 44% of the time.

I've heard Landry, Njoku, Duke, and Callaway all had more receptions than Higgins.

That's all true.

Higgins was on the field 44% of the time, caught 39 passes on 53 targets.

By comparison let's look...

Landry 88%, 81 rec, 149 tg
Callaway 70%, 42 rec, 79 tg
Njoku 80%, 56 rec, 88 tg
Duke 42%, 47 rec, 62 tg
Higgins 44%, 39 rec, 53 tg

I'm not saying anyone is not a good receiver or someone is a great receiver. What I'm suggesting is to look at all the data not just a snippet.

Higgins may have had 3 games with only 1 reception.

In the one Cincinnati game Higgins had only 1 catch.

Higgins 31% snaps, 1 rec, 3 targets
Landry 61%, 3 rec, 5 targets
Perriman 55%, 1 rec, 1 target
Callaway 59%, 4 rec, 5 target
Njoku 67%, 5 rec, 5 targer

There's obviously a lot more that goes into this as well. I just don't like seeing numbers without any substance posted as some concrete evidence that someone isn't very good or isn't as good as someone thought.

I'm not making a case for any receiver here. You can watch the games, look at the numbers and still deduce that Higgins sucks and that's fine. I'm just suggesting I would look deeper than "Higgins had 1 catch, he's not very good."

Not one person said Higgins sucks. I haven't even seen one person suggest that they don't want Higgins back. What I have seen is that a couple of us are saying that his importance to the team is overrated by some others on this board.

j/c -

Higgins is an unrestricted free agent, correct? If he is, and he is still unsigned, then that points to him being just another guy. I imagine at some point someone will make him offer, but they fact he is still available says something.

I apologize for the word "still" in my post. I wasn't insinuating anyone said he sucks.

Thanks.

That's interesting but probably deeper analysis than I think it deserves! I think Higgins and Baker had chemistry - I think everyone agrees. I think the 'stink' was whether someone wants to say Higgins was Baker's 'go to'. Clearly being on 44% of the snaps makes it hard to say he was 'the' go to guy, on the other hand maybe you can make a case to say when he was on the field Baker was comfortable/looked for him? idk - semantics really.

My biggest thing is they definitely had chemistry. I don't know why Higgins was in the dog house last year and I don't know if they still have chemistry. I liked Higgins - I don't think it would be hard to replace him though.

I think that the idiom "go to guy" is an ambiguous statement and it depends on the context.

For instance ... someone might've called a QBs' favorite WR his go to guy ... and another might use it for a guy the QB seems to look for on 3rd downs, or in the Redzone.

I also think that everyone of us can be guilty of taking statements made out of context.

What it says is that he is not a #1 or #2 receiver. This is a deep WR draft, and after the draft, teams will have a better view of where they stand in their WR room. I suspect that he will find a home shortly after camps open. (whenever that may be)

No it doesn't. I think several players remain unsigned because teams are waiting for the ability to fully test them and perform physicals during the pandemic. Clowney and Griffin are still unsigned....are they both 'just another guy'?

And no, I'm not comparing Higgins to Clowney or Griffin in terms of play on field. I'm saying players not being signed could have many different reasons for it.

It could be many different reasons. Yet we signed a FB most people never heard of while Higgins is out there wide open to sign. And yes, the cost of the other players you listed makes sense in waiting to see if you address those positions in the draft. The cost of signing Higgins? Not so much.

But then, drafting a #3 or #4 WR isn't that hard. Unless of course you were a Browns fan in 2016. Then it looked almost impossible.

Obviously Stefanski can't see the magic he and Baker have together.

Its not that hard to figure out ...

Bake worked with Higgs with the 2’s in ota’s, tc and the pre-season .. he had a COMFORT LEVEL with Higgs he didn’t have with the other WR’s THAT YEAR ...

Big difference between go to guy and having a comfort level with someone based off he’s the only one that Bake was familiar with ...

By last year Bake had that Same FAMILIARITY with VG and not OBJ ... hopefully he develops it with everyone this year ...

True. Also, don't forget the attention that certain receivers get from defenses. The more teams focus on one receiver, the more open it leaves lesser receivers.

Higgins is a tweener WR. not fast or elusive
Enough to leave DBs behind and not physical
Enough to break tackles for YAC.
Does he have a catch over 50 yds in his career ?

There are plenty of guys that can 'get it done' in the NFL, but don't have many (or any) elite tools.