DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Free Agency Cont’d

But, we *should* trade Njoku, the starter we'd draft in 2021, and take on $20 million per year for a guy that has a history of NOT doing exactly what you yourself say "all he has to do in the run game". He was a starting DE on one of two teams that were worse against the run than Cleveland at 5.1 YPC. Sorry, that stats gets owned by the DLine. If they do their thing, then the LBers actually have gaps to fill. The simple fact that he has more snaps than Clowney but what... 60+ fewer tackles? That is a CLEAR indicator that he either runs himself right out of plays, or plays literally run right past him. I'm still waiting for anyone to show anything to the contrary. I don't have PFF Premier, so I cannot look up his situational stats, but all signs point to him being a liability in the Run game, and that goes back to his college days as well. That leopard hasn't changed his spots.

If Clowney as a long-term (3-4 years) option isn't an option, I'm all in favor of just sitting tight with Vernon.

It would be REALLY nice to lock up a long-term deal with a DE this year so that it is staggered with Garretts coming next year, but it MUST be the right deal for the right player. It makes zero sense to bring in a player that is a liability in the run after spending the offseason focusing on getting better against the run.

David Njoku and what? That’s the problem.

I think that your conclusion is predicated by this assumption, that imo is a false assumption. Hooper is quite capable of working his route tree from the inline TE postion.

j/c...

Date of birth: May 14, 1983
So next week he turns 37

What a machine Gore is .. so iimpressive

Loses early taking the weak way around mediocre blocking. I think those stats are very telling, especially across an entire season. Regardless, Clowney still has some gas left and some freak type physical moments. I think he is approaching sensible values now, at least for a short timer. JMHO. Really might be worth our look if still available.

Just to keep things on the up and up and have a decent exchange, you are not talking to someone who just got off the bus. To make a comment that Ngakoue can't defend the run or that he'd be a liability in the run game is ridiculous.

Let me explain:

Garrett who the Browns are about to give a contract of about 25-million per year averaged over the last 3-years a whopping 2.11 tackles per game. Approximately 1 of those 2.11 tackles was a sack (.87).

Clowney averages a whopping 2.39 tackles per game and .52 of those tackles per game was a sack the last 3-years.

Ngakoue averages 1.80 tackles per game and .63 of those tackles per game were sacks the last 3-years.

Vernon (the heralded run stopper here) averages a whopping 2.0 tackles per game of which .52 are sacks the last 3 years.

Clowney 2.39 tackles per game
Garrett 2.11 tackles per game
Vernon 2.0 tackles per game
Ngakoue 1.80 tackles per game

So basically you are trying to tell me that Ngakoue would be a determent and a step backwards in the run defense because the Browns would sacrifice a half tackle or less per game?

The real numbers come from your DE's getting after the QB. That tells a completely different story over the last 3-years.

Garrett age 24 30.5 sacks 65 QB hits
Ngakoue age 25 29.5 sacks 71 QB hits
Clowney age 27 21.5 sacks 55 QB hits
Vernon age 29 17.0 sacks 44 QB hits

Again to prove my point.
2019 totals for tackles:
Garrett 20 2.0 per game
Ngakoue 37 2.3 per game
Clowney 21 1.6 per game
Vernon 20 2.0 per game

Your assessment of getting Ngakoue will set back our improved run defense is without merit. What he would bring is a youthful player that has a solid history of getting after the QB which would be a huge benefit to our young linebackers and young secondary. In retrospect, so would Clowney but his numbers have fallen each of the last 3-years and his demands are similar to Ngakoue who would also be a long term option where Clowney would not.

I am not arguing for or against any of the players that you have listed. I will only say that using their number of tackles is a misuse of stats.

Things like setting the edge, drawing double teams, providing outside containment, getting penetration that causes a back to go off course, etc are all important when evaluating how good an Edge guy is against the run.

I retract some of what I said... the numbers you had posted above were apparently career tackles, not just 2019. I didn't catch that and thought the massive gap in number of tackles between them was for one season. That is what drove my logic & conclusion.

I still assert that a declining Clowney is still a better overall player. The difference being that Ngakoue is likely still on the ascent while Clowney is at the top of his game now. I absolutely cede that if all else were equal in terms of availability, Ngakoue is the one to go after... however, he is franchised. That changes things completely.

A healthy Vernon brings everything Ngak has, except age (and health). His last year in NY at RDE, he had production comparable to Ngak and in his last full season ('16) he had numbers Ngak has never sniffed. However, that's the gigantic question mark... can he stay healthy? Either way, this is his last year in C-Town so we do have to look replace him.


You make a lot of sense with the choice of player, but not with the cost. Forgetting about cutting Vernon for the salary; giving up whatever starter we would get with our 2nd next year AND Njoku - who absolutely still has value to this offense - is just too much and I do not think it makes us better enough in 2020 to do it. The only real value in it comes in 2021 when we already have that DE spot locked up at the time we are about to give Garrett a giant deal, but meanwhile we lost one offensive weapon - who, by the way, we'd end up playing against this year. I do not like that idea at all.

In the end, I don't think any of it matters. Following today's story about the extension talks, I think they might have decided to use all that cap we have this year not to bring in a new, shiny player, but get Garrett locked up this year and we'll be looking at a rookie DE opposite him next year..... or, we get Yannick, or Leonard Williams, or another DE then as a free agent, but most likely a rookie to keep salaries under control because then we will start needing to look at new deals for Baker, Chubb, etc...

j/c:

DeShone Kizer is available. The Raiders cut him. Oh, the memories.

Yes, I was sorry to have correctly projected him to be a bust. The only saving grace (somewhat) was the fact that we only used a 2nd and not a 1st round pick on him.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/browns-sign-15-undrafted-free-191643824.html

Browns sign 15 undrafted free agents:
CB A.J. Green, Oklahoma St
RB B. Herrien, Georgia
LB S. Ajayi, Liberty
S E. Benton, Liberty
WR J. Bradley, Louisiana-Lafayette
WR T. Brown, Colorado
QB K. Davidson, Princeton
OT D. Dorbeck, Southern Miss
CB J. Houston, Baylor
RB B. LeMay, Charlotte
S J. Moffatt, Middle Tennessee State
DE G. Obinna, Sacramento State
OT A. Taylor, South Carolina State
DE J. Whatley, South Alabama
TE N. Wieting, Iowa

I know we’ve got 2 great backs, but I’m intrigued by those RBs

The more I read about AJ Green...the more I don't understand why he went undrafted.

Me too ... if for nothing else for next year keeping one or both around on the PS.

Herrien or another UDFA type is probably what we will be able to afford if and when we extend Chubbs contract.

He was basically a career backup to first and second round talent ahead of him on the depth chart. Many probably would have transferred out of the program for a better oppritunaty in his shoes.

That tells me that he has the makeup of an unselfish team player.

Herrien runs like a back that is some 20 lbs heavier and tested out simular to that of Kareem Hunt coming into the League.

I'm not saying he will be the next Kareem Hunt, but that they have similar physical attributes.

Good points. And sometimes when RBs are backups in college they actually do better in the NFL

Destroying A Quarterback, The DeShone Kizer Debacle

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-mav...e-kizer-debacle

DeShone Kizer was unceremoniously waived by the Las Vegas Raiders this week. The Cleveland Browns second round pick of the 2017 NFL Draft is 24 years old and he's been on three teams in four years. While first round picks Myles Garrett and David Njoku are having their fifth-year options being picked up by the Browns and Jabrill Peppers by the the New York Giants, Kizer's career in the NFL may well be over, going out with a whimper; a combination of a poor decision and gross mishandling by the team that selected him.

Kizer opted to declare for the 2017 NFL Draft with the possibility he could be a first round pick. And going in the second round certainly wasn't a failure. It was probably still early for him, but it was far more reasonable. He wasn't ready to be in the NFL. He wasn't particularly good in college at Notre Dame. Kizer had great size, mobility and tools for the position including a strong arm and some truly special throws along the way that made him an attractive prospect. Kizer was selected by a team that seemed to understand where he was in his development, save for the head coach, Hue Jackson.

When he was drafted, Sashi Brown, the Executive Vice President of the team at the time noted the team intended to let Kizer sit and develop, trying to put him in a position to succeed. But as minicamps and training camp got going, Hue Jackson kept talking up Kizer's ability and progress, which proved to be hollow excuses to tell everyone how great he was as a coach.

The team released Robert Griffin III, the team's veteran quarterback option they signed the year before who missed much of the year due to injury. Josh McCown was released as Jackson thought he'd be a really great coach, but didn't think he was good enough to play any longer. McCown signed with the New York Jets and had a year the Browns would've killed for in 2017. Efficient, he helped a pretty bad Jets team win five games of the thirteen games he played that year.

Last but not least, the Browns let go of Brock Osweiler. Osweiler was acquired in a trade with the Houston Texans as a massive salary dump that allowed the Browns to move up from the fourth round of the 2018 NFL Draft to the second round. Osweiler was already fully paid for the 2017 season, regardless of what the Browns would do. Cutting him didn't save the team a dime and keeping him wouldn't have cost them a dollar more. Nevertheless, cut.

Despite the fact he had a very young, very raw quarterback, Jackson and the Browns released any meaningful potential support system within the quarterback room in the form of veterans, moving on from Griffin, McCown and Osweiler in favor of second-year quarterbacks Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan. Kessler was a third round pick by the Browns in 2016 and Hogan was a fifth round pick in 2016, picked by the Kansas City Chiefs, who they had waived.

Jackson believed in his ability to teach and coach Kizer so much that he thought he was all that Kizer needed. In some ways, it seemed Jackson wanted his voice to be the only one they heard. David Lee, the quarterbacks coach of the Browns in 2017 came out and said he thought Kizer wasn't ready. Along with the front office, one of Jackson's own assistants didn't think Kizer was ready to play. Jackson ignored them because he knew better. Lee was let go after the 2017 season.

Kizer had a pretty good debut in preseason against the New Orleans Saints. He completed 11 of 18 passes for 184 yards and a touchdown, including a 45-yard touchdown pass to Jordan Payton and a 52-yard pass to Richard Mullaney. It was against a third string defense, but it was a positive step for Kizer. It should've been the type of competition he faced that year and little else.

Kizer went 8 for 13 for 74 yards and ran for 35 yards against the New York Giants the second week of preseason, playing against the second string. Despite actually doing very little, the fanfare and anticipation grew. Against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Kizer completed just six passes on 18 attempts and threw an interception.

This should have been the wake up call Jackson needed. However talented he might have thought Kizer was, it was clear he wasn't there yet, which is no shame for Kizer as a player or Jackson as a coach. But Jackson had gotten so drunk on his own ambition and unwavering belief he could will Kizer into a franchise quarterback, he couldn't turn back and announced him the starter for the season.


Jeff Schudel
✔
@jsproinsider
Hue Jackson: "If I'm worth my salt as a coach, I'll get the most out of DeShone Kizer." #Browns

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For so much of camp and early into the 2017 season, Jackson was effusive with praise for Kizer, saying he had the tools to be a franchise quarterback and that he was the man to get that out of him. After the Pittsburgh Steelers game to start the season, Jackson was convinced everything was going to click into place and Kizer would get better and better throughout the year.

Going 20 of 30 for 222 yards with a touchdown and an interception in a game the Browns lost 21-18 to the Steelers, it seemed like maybe Kizer could figure it out. Unfortunately, that game was arguably the best Kizer played that season and the rest of the year was a slow, painful trickle downward.

And while Jackson's delusions with Kizer were misguided and he was setting this poor 21-year old kid to fail as a rookie, it didn't make Jackson a bad guy. It wasn't until Jackson came to the conclusion that Kizer wasn't the franchise quarterback he built him up to be, that he proclaimed to the world he could create that he became one. When Jackson made that turn, it revealed a truly ugly side.

Kizer didn't make any proclamations. He was humble throughout the process, just trying to find his way in the NFL and adjust to that life. It really did seem too much for him initially, because he was a 21-year old kid born in Toledo and had the hopes of an entire fanbase resting on him, amplified by his coach out there with a megaphone telling anyone who would listen how great he was going to be.

Fans are allowed to be unrealistic and overzealous in their belief that a rookie quarterback who completed a third of his passes against an NFL defense could go out there and start. The head coach wasn't. And the head coach wasn't supposed to actively destroy any potential support system around him in the process, save for himself.

That's when the yo-yoing began. Kizer was benched. And at that point, there seemed like maybe an epiphany was reached, that Kizer wasn't ready, that he needed to learn and simply adjust to this new NFL reality. But as losses piled up and Jackson realized that the quarterback room he assembled was woefully inadequate to the task of starting, he went through the quarterbacks like a batting order, going from one to the next.

These three young quarterbacks were just trying to survive and they are being put into and taken out of games to the point where it lost all meaning. It might as well have been a random number generator each week.

The Browns finish 0-16. All these quarterbacks were effectively damaged goods in Cleveland for it and moved to other teams, almost as acts of mercy. Kizer was traded to the Green Bay Packers for Damarious Randall. Kessler was traded to the Jacksonville Jaguars for a conditional seventh round pick in 2019. Hogan was waived.

The NFL is a cold, often unforgiving machine that rolls on regardless of how many young men it chews up and spits out along the way. It's possible that Kizer was never going to be successful in the NFL based on his skill set and the issues he had coming into the NFL. His stints with the Packers and Raiders could be evidence of that. It's also possible that Kizer could've been drafted to a team with a coach that cared about the person first and the player second. And had he been developed for a few years, he'd be 24 years with three seasons under his belt, just 11 months older than the top pick of the 2020 NFL Draft Joe Burrow. There might be a team that would be excited to have him. Regardless of the truth, DeShone Kizer deserved better than Hue Jackson.

Thanks for the article ... he was thrown to the wolves too quickly ... plus, we sucked and he sucked.

Looking back, it was an awful season in every regard

He should have never ever ever came out .. i said it before his junior year started and then he stunk the joint up ,,, CFRS and I argued over weather he’d come out at the very beginning of the season ... i said he wasn’t ready and cfrs said any QB rated to fo top 5 always comes out ...

Well i was wrong and CFRS was right in that he came out ... he was way wrong about why he came out as he no one had him going in the 1st rnd much less top 5 ....

I blame Brain Kelly for why he came out .. Kelly was brutal to him .. after almost every series he’d scold him when they came off the field ... 1/2 way through the year Kizer started avoiding Kelly coming off the filed only to have Kelly find him and scold him wherever Kizer ended up ..

Kelly’s behavior on the sidelines that year he was told by our pencil necked geek AD to behave better (one of the few things I agreed with the little worm of an AD they have) ... it wasn’t just Kizer he embarrassed ... anyone that made a mistake faced his wrath coming off the field that year ...

I actually thought he was worth the move up to get him ... i didn’t know if he would be any good but dude that wrote this article is whacko if he thinks Kizer didn’t have a great year the year before he came out ... he lost all cred with me when he blew off what Kizer did taking over for Zaire after the 1st or 2nd week and led us to within a close loss to Clemson at there place in a monsoon from a birth in the BCS ..

Kizer had a GREAT YEAR and stunk his last year .. dude saying he “wasn’t particularly good at nd” ... he had a hell of a year in his 1st year and it was far from not particularly good ... dude also said he thought he may go in rnd 1 ... ... no one had him slated there ...

Then again .. it’s from SI and they’ve not been particularly good for over 3 decades now ... that thing is a rag ...

j/c:

Pete Smith articles should not be allowed on this site. The guy is a hack and makes things up constantly. The crap about Sashi and Hue is not true in regards to Kizer. In fact, Hue wanted to start Osweiler and when the change was made, Osweiler said "ask the GM" when questioned about why he was not a starter.

Take a look at Pete Smith's picture next to his article. The dude is a freaking joke. His stories are full of lies and his goal is to mislead people.

This image is always w/Pete Smith's articles. Again, this dude is a joke and his articles should be banned from this site. I posted one of his articles once because it said Sports Illustrated. I looked more closely and saw it was that dude and apologized to the board for posting such nonsense. Here is the image:

You do know the picture is from Monty Python, and probably a joke, right?

Also, where was all this reported that Hue wanted Osweiler? Nate Ulrich reported at the time 3 separate times Osweiler said he would respect Hue's decision, and once to ask the GM.

I know about the image, but how in the hell does that speak to credibility? I am not going to battle w/you. I offered my opinion and I also know for a fact what Osweiler said when he lost the starting job. Have a nice night.

You used the picture to help say the writer is a joke. I was just pointing out that the picture itself is probably a joke.

Also, I agree that Osweiler said it. He also said that it was up to Hue and and that he would respect Hue's decision.

All I am saying is you can't state for fact that Hue wanted Osweiler and Sashi overruled him.

Why are you arguing about this? Seriously? The dude is a hack. Almost every single article he writes is BS. What legitimate reporter would use that image w/his articles. He makes things up. I get that it is important to you back Sashi and trash Hue and myself...........but that doesn't change the fact that Pete Smith is a hack.

I think the article lays it on way too thick at times. Look dude, we get it... you're not a fan of Hue Jackson.

But when you boil down the article to its hard points, the guy is mostly right. We 100% ruined Kizer. We handled him in the absolute worst way, and then invented newer, badder ways to handle a rookie QB. The cycling through the QBs each game, specifically, didn't age well. Bringing in RG3 when you KNEW he was going to get injured (he did). Letting McCown go to be a positive vet presence elsewhere.

So bad.

He lays into Hue quite a bit, but at the same time I think he exposes just how much Hue deserves to be laid into. It seems that he single-handedly created the situation to ruin Kizer in his attempt to "fix/coach" Kizer up.

If he got that one so consistently wrong over and over again, how many other positions had similarly ego-driven disasters created by him?

I constantly tried to support him, and I was always looking for the up-side in his moves and giving him the benefit of the doubt; mostly because I was already three coaches deep into being sick and tired of our constant change and I wanted us to just stick with something for once.... but, Hue really seems to have exemplified our "rock bottom".

Kizer was never going to be a successful QB in the NFL. We did not ruin Kizer.

He was bad in college at Notre Dame.

He was bad with the Browns.

He was bad in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers as a mentor.

I agree. I don't think we "ruined" Kizer. I just don't think he had the football smarts [not the same thing as academic intelligence or IQ] to be very good. He would do some good things and then make the dumbest decision possible. Usually in the red zone.

In order to ruin something it had to be good to start with. I don't think Kizer qualifies.

In those contexts, we maybe didn't ruin him, but we absolutely ruined any chance he had of ever developing into anything more than he was in this league.

I guess if one feels a QB's career is decided by or hinges on his first 18 starts that's what it means.

Alright, alright. 'Ruin' isn't the right word to use.

Put in the worst possible situation to succeed is more accurate. Getting rid of all of the vets just looks horrible.

Source: The #Saints have cut guard Larry Warford, who will be one of the top FAs available.

@RapSheet

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/saint...lary-cap-space/

Larry Warford for RG?

Warford was drafted in the 3rd round in 2013 - he's 28. Here's NFL.com's scouting report from his draft year:

Analysis

Strengths
Big-bodied guard prospect with lower-body girth. Quick feet for his size, keeps them moving in pass protection to mirror his man and can adjust quickly to ride defenders penetrating gaps out of the play. Also plays with knee bend and has arm length to maintain distance from his man, will reset and punch with one or two hands throughout the play. Capable of getting off tackle block to pick up delayed blitzer. Flashes quickness to trap and get around the tackle to lead run plays. Gets down quickly to cut block and take out linebackers in the hole on traps. Hustles downfield to help out ballcarriers when needed. Plays with some attitude, brings some pop to his punch when helping his tackle against a pass rusher.

Weaknesses
As one might imagine for someone of his size, Warford is not tremendously explosive out of his stance. He also struggles to react quickly enough to defenders who are simply diving at his legs. For this reason, running directly behind him on short yardage situations is not as successful as one might expect given his size. It's also possible that quicker defensive lineman in the NFL with active hands could give him problems due to this deficiency.

NFL Comparison Marshal Yanda

Bottom Line
Warford translated his power as a drive-blocker, unexpected foot quickness and downfield hustle into a fantastic, decorated college career and should win his share of battles against NFL linemen when able to get his thick body moving quickly off the snap. That size, strength, and those surprising nimble feet should help him nab a draft slot in the top half of the draft and step into a starting lineup at the next level immediately.