DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What will be the effect of THIS new coaching staff...

There was so much hype last year going into the season. And to be frank, there was pretty good reason for it. The stacked offense. Doing very well in the 2nd half of 2018. Everyone was riding high.

But the hype was deflated rather quickly. The stories are slowly coming out. But much was evident that Kitchens was in over his head. Undisciplined play, even from pretty disciplined players. There is now talk of a lack of communication. A lack of organization. There are stories that are confirming the disconnect between Kitchens and Monken. The offense had no identity except that of "inconsistent".

The news I saw a few weeks ago was Landry stating that after the first scripted plays, no one knew what the gameplan was. This is definitely supported in some simple statistics. While not telling the whole story it does show some issues.

The Browns were in the top half of the NFL in 1st half scoring and yet were in the bottom 4 in second half scoring. They were #4 in time of posession in the 1st quarter, dropping to 19th in the second, 29th in the 3rd, and 24th in the 4th...


This change in coaching I believe is the most significant upgrade this team made this offseason. Stefanski is appears to be far more organized than his predecessor. During the hiring process I remember hearing it stated that players would definitely not be confused on where to report each day at the practice facility. Everyone talking about Stefanski's offense. Stefanski's offense has an identity even before we have even had a chance to walk through a single play. Even though he has a single year as OC. There appears to be direction. Or even better...there is confindence in a plan, even if we the fans don't know it.

To me I think this organization...this direction...this identity on offense is going to have the largest effect on this team. Especially on Offense. Yes, havong better tackles, added TE's is a huge help. But a team having a plan of attack after scripted plays...the possibility of a more disciplined team, snd the players belief (and probably relief) in knowign what is going on will be a larger transformation toward upholding the hype that was created for last season.

I can't help but think that the leadership from this coaching staff(which I am not sure was ever there with Kitchens) is being overshadowed by player acquisition and the front office moves...

Time will tell if Stefanski is the right move. is he ready. By all accounts we have seen thus far, he appears to be up for the task...But then we were eating up "if you aren't orange and brown, you don't matter" at this time last year.

I still say the change in coaching staff has the potential to having the largest positive effect on this team.

I don't know. Worst-case scenario is we've traded one set of majors issues of our last coach to a different set of major issues with our new coach. Both are/were unproven (limited time as OCs, and none as HC).

So while I'd love to say that KS is clearly going to be better than FK, I can't because I had successfully talked myself into FK back when that hire was made.

I have to think that our offense will be much more tailored to our QBs talents ... I can’t imagine it will be any worse than it was last season.

I also think that Chubb and Hunt have to be frothing at the mouth with the ZBS ... same with Hooper.

The defense may be another issue ...

Every time a new regime comes to town, fans buy into what they are selling. We hear about continuity and how everyone is working together. Whether they have had experience or not, somehow we buy the talking points.

Freddie had a grand total of eight games as an OC and none as a HC. Stefanski has had a grand total of sixteen games as an OC. We have nothing to base an actual opinion on other than faith and conjecture. As a Browns fan I have been burned too many times before. I'm not going to buy into another sales pitch and conjecture.

As a Browns fan I will be hoping for the best as I always do. But there's nothing in the resume here that stands out as cause for belief in things based on potential or evidence. As always the proof will be in the pudding. And until the pudding is served, the recipe alone isn't something I'm willing to bank on.

I'm in wait and see mode.

I guess that is where I differ. While I liked Freddie as person(and still do), I liked what he said(and still do), I liked his attitude(and still do). For me I never saw things backed up by "actions". Even early on. Yes the O did well in 2018 towards the end. But there were many questions asto how much of that was Kitchens, how much was Zampese, how much was Williams' approach as HC...

Kitchens tried to push that outside things don't matter. This in an effort to have his players focus on the team and what it was doing...But I didn't see actions to back that up. I did not see the players adhere to that... So I always had questions about Freddie. I never saw the actions to back up what it was he actually wanted to do.

To me, it appeared as if the players had no confidence that Freddie was prepared. And while we haven't seen a single practice or game...I don't have the feeling that Stefanski will ever "appear" unprepared. And if you think about it, that is a tenement to leadership. I think to a quote from the movie "U-571" "You're the skipper now. And the skipper always knows what to do whether he does or not." Did you ever have the confidence in Freddie that "he knew what to do"? Because I did not. I always had the feeling that he was always searching for his "style" of coaching...I honestly felt Hue was better in this area than Freddie..JMO

I can't say I had ever "bought in" to Freddie. But I have to say, I may be buying into Stefanski...Not because of what he says...but from what he has done after saying things. Such as how they are handling the COVID19 issue, how he connects with players, and what the players have said about him...and yes we will always get fluff pieces now...But it isn't impossible to see through the fluff to catch what is actually telling. (similar to the comments about players will know what to do when they arrive at the building.)

You do realize the way the Covid 19 issue is being handled is decided by the league and not individual teams and certainly not HC's, right?

I mean I understand fans being hopeful and positive, but the fact is as an NFL HC Stefanski has done nothing. There is zero with which to base how he will step up to the job as an NFL HC.

There have been no team activities with which to say how he will "connect" with players as a HC. Yes, it seems a lot of people are basing their conclusions on almost nothing to date with which to base them on.

Re: your first paragraph... do we know how much of the Vikings offense was KS, and how much was Kubiak?

I honestly don't know, but I'm also playing a little devil's advocate.

And you realize that while the NFL sets up guidelines, that it is up to teams how to implement and perform activities within those guidelines. I mean you act as if Stefanski has sat on his hands since the day he has been hired.

I don't know what to tell you if you cannot perceive a level of organization that was far above Kitchens at this time last year. It is just the overall feeling that I get from this coaching staff and especially from Stefanski. It is my opinion that this alone can and will bring large positive changes to the team.

In some way...this could be a talk about coaching staffs and their effect on how a team performs. To me, we had all the talent in the world assembled. We always talk about talent, talent, talent. We never had the talent to compete since we returned...Well last year we had the talent. But it didn't solve the equation. And to me...Kitchens lack of prepardness was a large reason for this. I think this situation has the possibility to show exactly the effect a coaching staff can have on a team. And maybe that is the bigger question...not necessarily what this staff will do..but just a hypothetical discussion on coaching...

I get it..you are burnt out on the constant change(I think we all are). And you sure can argue that not much has been done. But I am looking at what has been done and IS being done, how it has been done, how it compares to the words being said. And in my estimation, I have a much better feeling about this team than last year.

I am not making claims of playoffs, or Super Bowl, or anything like that. I do think that what little I have seen to this point gives me far more confidence of those possibilities than the talk I saw from the team last year.

Last year was All Bark, No Bite.

And this year I heard a player mention a motto of "All Bite, No Bark" being used as well as being implemented.(started by Stefanski)

That right there to me is a huge change.

And absolutely a Valid question...I am not sure we can know until we see our team in action...aside from comments from players and coaches in Minnesota.

I do have to say...the Vikings Offense had an identity..the Browns did not...

The fact you use terms like " if you cannot perceive ", " It is just the overall feeling that I get ", " It is my opinion ", " a hypothetical discussion on coaching ", and " I have a much better feeling " are all exactly what I was talking about in my post. I will reiterate, what we have witnessed thus far has been all talk. We have no idea what we will see from Stefanski as it pertains to an NFL HC.

As I stated, everything at this point is a hypothetical, an opinion, feelings and perception. In your response those are the very words you yourself used.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. We will see how it all plays out. So far we haven't seen anything.

So would you prefer me to use words like IS, WILL, ARE, etc. so you could criticize me for using Absolutes???? I use those terms because I am not infallible...it my opinion and I stand by it.

You don't think I don't understand what you are speaking to? I get it...it is early in the process...but much like grading drafts right after...while it may not matter in the future...it is fun to speculate now...

The biggest difference between us is I do have an opinion and I put it forward for a discussion of possibilities. You don't want to form an opinion until basically all is said and done...which by the way is a bit late for a discussion now...

Anyone can make an opinion after the fact. Frankly the discussion I was hoping for, acually HINGES on the fact that we have little information right now. It is about speculation, and in some ways, philisohical differences (in coaching) rather than a historical look at the year. It is an attempt to look forward, not backward...Now either you get that or you don't. And if you do get that...Why are you responding if you don't want to form an opinion now???

j/c:

Last year, I never bought into the Freddie is ready mantra. I had nothing against him, but I said I would wait until I saw the team play at least half a season and maybe an entire season before I evaluated him.

I'll say the same thing about Stefanski. He brings w/him the same lack of experience as Freddie has. He might turn out to be great and he may not. No one knows at this point and to say otherwise is just an unproven opinion.

My only point is that there is not enough evidence in place at this time for any speculation in either direction to hold any validity. An opinion is usually based on at least some informed information. That's not what's being done here.

Some find throwing darts in a dark room to be productive or fun. And that's fine. At least you have backed away from your original post and seem somewhat more realistic in facing you have nothing of substance to base it on.

No, I don't generally form an opinion based on nothing.

The offense will be a different scheme. That’s all we know.

Agreed. But, I still hope.

Freddie pulled the biggest con job ever last year. He convinced a GM with a better than average track record and he conned a bigger
Con man in Haslam.
And the kicker Freddie tricked himself into
Thinking he's HC material
KS obviously has a resume that destroys Kitchens
Resume. I never bought into FK.
KS I think is willing to admit mistakes as a HC
And learn from them.
The thing is Freddie really lowered the bar
Here as far as HC go
Expect KS to make mistakes as a HC.
It comes with the gig.
Don't be surprised if he gets the Browns close
But not in the playoffs.

See, now this is an opinion based on at least some evidence and I certainly agree with you. The Covid 19 situation will make it very hard to evaluate Stefanski's first year as a HC. Precious time is being lost in any rapport being built among he and his players.

Here is a list of activities that have already been missed and upcoming events that may be missed or delayed.

April 6th: Teams that hired a new head coach after the end of the 2019 regular season (Redskins, Cowboys, Giants, Panthers, Browns) may begin offseason workout programs.

May 1st – 4th: Teams may elect to hold their one three-day post-Draft rookie minicamp from Friday through Sunday or Saturday through Monday.

May 8th through 11th: Teams may elect to hold their one three-day post-Draft rookie minicamp from Friday through Sunday or Saturday through Monday.

May 11th: Rookie Development Football programs begin.

We are already behind on working with the rookies and as time passes we will only be further behind. Installing new schemes on both sides of the ball will require familiarity on the field. Timing and coordinating with the team together. Sure you can teach the X's and O's on a computer, but nothing replicates the installation of entire new schemes like the players being on the field.

This will be a hindrance to every team with a new HC and can make the Browns success far more difficult than it may have been under normal circumstances.

While it's true that it will be somewhat of a struggle for every team, teams with existing HC's and existing systems will have veterans on their roster that can work with new players coming into that system. Not so for teams with new HC's.

I can't really argue with your points as a whole.

Stefanski has had more experience in running a O. Maybe not much, but he does. Both he and Freddie coached QB's for several years. That is a position that grooms you towards being a coordinator. The QB coach is a little more involved in the big picture stuff.

This is just opinion here, but I don't think Freddie was very organized. Part of that is it didn't seem like Dorsey really fostered that type of environment.

I am very confident that Berry, Stefanski, and DePodesta are very organized. I know some may not like to hear this, but you don't get in to and graduate from Harvard if you aren't a organized person. You just don't.

I feel like we have a plan and are going to stick to the plan.

Does that lead to more wins and championship chances, like you, who knows? I just know the people we have are pretty sharp people, and Stefanski has a pretty good reputation for being a creative offensive mind.

We seemed to attack free agency in a smart manner and struck quickly. The draft looks we had a board, and were able to move up and down the board in spots to select targeted players who fit in the BPA at those spots and fill remaining needs.

Again, they may flop badly, but I just get a different vibe than I have from other front office groups we have had in the past. Some of those seemed ego driven. Heck, maybe all of them.

Dorsey, Farmer, Savage, Holmgren, Butch...they just seemed ego driven. I don't sense that with these guys, but I admit that could change.

You mean his entire eight more games as an NFL OC?

I agree, I don't think it destroys it. As I said above, it is more experience, but destroy? No.

Looking that their coaching positions as assistants, it is pretty equal IMO.

Really? How so?

Kevin Stefanski:

Penn (2005)
Assistant director of football operations
Minnesota Vikings (2006–2008)
Assistant to the head coach
Minnesota Vikings (2009–2013)
Assistant quarterbacks coach
Minnesota Vikings (2014-2015)
Tight ends coach
Minnesota Vikings (2016)
Running backs coach
Minnesota Vikings (2017–2018)
Quarterbacks coach
Minnesota Vikings (2018)
Interim offensive coordinator
Minnesota Vikings (2019)
Offensive coordinator

Kitchens:


Glenville State (1999)
Running backs coach & tight ends coach
LSU (2000)
Graduate assistant
North Texas (2001–2003)
Running backs coach
Mississippi State (2004)
Tight ends coach
Mississippi State (2005)
Running backs coach
Dallas Cowboys (2006)
Tight ends coach
Arizona Cardinals (2007–2012)
Tight ends coach
Arizona Cardinals (2013–2016)
Quarterbacks coach
Arizona Cardinals (2017)
Running backs coach
Cleveland Browns (2018)
Associate head coach & running backs coach
Cleveland Browns (2018)
Offensive coordinator

I, for one, will wait to see how the new staff performs. I was extremely hopeful last year, and obviously that did not turn out. I thought Freddie was ready to be a head coach, and he simply wasn't.

I have this strange feeling of optimism on the offensive side of the ball.. Just the opposite on the D side .lol

Most every highly successful person has at least some ego. I think Dorsey made a huge mistake hiring Freddie. I didn't support it at the time myself.

But those who did brought up the points that Freddie led the offense to doing very well after he was made OC in 2018 and he and Baker worked well together. I really couldn't deny those points.

However, as I think you will agree, being an NFL coordinator is a completely different animal to being a HC. It's very hard to judge how any NFL coordinator will react when given that much responsibility. We'll see how it works out this time. I know we both hope for the best. Our time is getting shorter on this earth.

Freddie kind of reminded me of Bum Phillips with the way he carried himself. It just wasn't going to work here.

Actually, nothing in what I said was pessimistic. I just don't believe there's enough to base an opinion one way or the other on at this time. I'm hoping for the best but am in a wait and see frame of mind. That's more realistic than pessimistic.

Just because someone isn't all butterflies and rainbows doesn't mean they're a pessimist.

So was I. I liked the hire. We saw good things the last half of the pervious season.

It was very disappointing he was a woeful head coach.

As I said in another post, I think being organized is a big key to being a top head coach.

A good contractor gets things scheduled in proper order and the building goes up, on time. The disorganized contractor has a cluster from day 2.

What I think we want to see from Stefanski is that he is a piece we can hold onto and grow.

In no way do I expect miracles or playoffs in Year 1. In no way do I expect there to not be bumps in the road.

What I expect is a team that appears prepared each and every week. I expect a coaching unit that makes smart decisions in real time. I expect there to be accountability and discipline and that tired old mantra of "we're all pulling in the same direction", I expect him to get it to be true of the players.

I expect a bit of an up & down year, but one we can look at and feel that the downs are either things we can live with or will learn from and not repeat.

If we can get all of that from Kevin Stefanski, we will be on our way to having established a real culture in Berea that we can work with and going forward with that, the record will take care of itself.

I was curious so I did some research, it means nothing, and I am not refuting anything anyone said, it was pure curiousity.

Kevin Stefanski 2005-2019 227-106-2
Freddie Kitchens 1999-2019 157-148-2


Kevin Stefanski:

Penn (2005) 2005 11-1
Assistant director of football operations
Minnesota Vikings (2006–2008) 2006 6-10 2007 8-8 2008 10-6
Assistant to the head coach
Minnesota Vikings (2009–2013) 2009 12-4 2010 6-10 2011 3-13 2012 10-6 2013 5-10-1
Assistant quarterbacks coach
Minnesota Vikings (2014-2015) 2014 7-9 2015 11-5
Tight ends coach
Minnesota Vikings (2016) 2016 8-8
Running backs coach
Minnesota Vikings (2017–2018) 2017 13-3 2018 8-7-1
Quarterbacks coach
Minnesota Vikings (2018)
Interim offensive coordinator
Minnesota Vikings (2019) 2019 10-6
Offensive coordinator

227-106-2



Kitchens:


Glenville State (1999) 1999 5-6
Running backs coach & tight ends coach
LSU (2000) 2000 8-4
Graduate assistant
North Texas (2001–2003) 2001 5-7 2002 8-5 2003 9-4
Running backs coach
Mississippi State (2004) 2004 3-8
Tight ends coach
Mississippi State (2005) 2005 3-8
Running backs coach
Dallas Cowboys (2006) 2006 9-7
Tight ends coach
Arizona Cardinals (2007–2012) 2007 8-8 2008 9-7 2009 10-6 2010 5-11 2011 8-8 2012 5-11
Tight ends coach
Arizona Cardinals (2013–2016) 2013 10-6 2014 11-5 2015 13-3 2016 7-8-1
Quarterbacks coach
Arizona Cardinals (2017) 2017 8-8
Running backs coach
Cleveland Browns (2018) 7-8-1
Associate head coach & running backs coach
Cleveland Browns (2018)
Offensive coordinator
Cleveland Browns (2019) 2019 6-10
Head Coach

157-148-2

I just need them to be able to run a competent offensive scheme. Between the players slacking off and Freddie's inability to manage the offense, we had a disaster on our hands.

Last year was about as badly a managed team as I have ever seen. Usually I am bemoaning the roster as being the worst in the league.....last year it was the coaching. Vernon missing a lot of games, Garret being suspended....Ward and Williams missing WEEKS with hammy's....OBJ hernia.....what a mess.


Here is what I am hoping this staff brings.

Structure - all around, from cleats to watches to post game press conferences, get a wrangle on these diva's (Baker included).
A measure approach backed by science and technology to keep muscle strains and tears to a minimum in camp and pre-season.
Entirely ditch the air raid

Freddie Kitchens has resume that's looks like its
From a Kelly temp service

He had what 8 9 different landing spots
With different teams. Mostly lateral moves at that. Only in Cleveland did he get promoted from parking valet to executive chef. Think about that
At least KS despite turnover and change was able
To keep a job with the same organization.

Now mind you I don't think KS was the best hire
For the HC job. I'm just comparing resumes.
I questioned FK resume last year..
Kinda humorous FK got another gig doing what he really is. A position coach with the Giants.

Stefanski has a long term vision I think
FK's vision was coddling BM and OBJ and gambling on their talents could overshadow what a real
Zero he was as a HC

Freddie spent 10 years with Arizona,. under a couple of different head coaches.

I agree, you never know. That is why I believe being a very organized individual is nearly as important as knowing your X's and O's. I might even say possibly even more.



I think it possible for a head coach who isn't all that good as a X's and O's guy can organize and manage his staff, people who do know that and have a better chance than a guy great at X's and O's but can't manage the staff or team.

But, that is a six of one, half a dozen of the other proposition. It's obvious you need a good deal of both, and Freddie didn't have that.

It's why you see good coordinators become crappy head coaches on a regular basis. It's the next skill set, and some people just don't have the ability for one reason or another.

Same reason why some people are excellent engineers. They can calculate all the loads and help build any bridge needed. Make them the engineering manager over a room full, and it just doesn't work.

The head coach rarely can simply be a coach. They also have to be a manager of process and people. They also have to be team spokesperson, and the PR person out in the community at the "ribbon cuttings".


It's a big job. They earn their money.

LOL, last year some of you peeps were predicting 14-2 or Super Bowl....ROFL!!

I had real excitement and thought we would at least win 10.

I WILL NEVER EVER be excited like that EVER AGAIN before the season starts with this pathetic franchise!

On the original post - and simply - I think the coaching staff does have the potential to have the single biggest impact on how the team performs. I also think that I like nearly everything I have seen to date out of KS and co. But I have liked other off season changes and been bitten .... I was never a fan of Freddie and he never gave me the same hope that KS does. The best I could offer was "I'll support him and hope for the best" ... even though I am feeling more positive about KS - I am still very much into 'show me' ....

Regards resume between Freddie and KS ... Freddie has a history of nothing but position coach till he came to Cleveland. KS has seen and been exposed to more than that - maybe not extensively - but he's been exposed to parts of the FO more so than Freddie ever was. I think that exposure - along with their vastly different personalities - already shown itself in a positive light. . . But, it doesn't mean diddly till they start playing Sundays and we see an improvement.