DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What will be the effect of THIS new coaching staff...

I have one point to interject.. The comment most fans, analysts etc.. have made about the FA and Draft moves that we made, was that the Browns FO, coaches ie.. people that were involved in these things were (or at least seemed to be) on the same page.

Offhand, I'd say thats good news. I would certainly HOPE that KS and at least Callahan were involved in these moves. This is at the least HOPEFULL.

I had very little faith in Freddie last year. I had serious concerns about the team and predicted 8-8 or most likely worse, mostly because of the coaching staff. I feel like a lot of people are saying the same now but I certainly felt in the minority last year.

I admit I’m a bit elitist. I like my managers and lead staff to be smart and to have demonstrated it in the past. I do judge people by what say when they say stupid things and as much as people loved Freddie’s bravado and plain speak, there were a number of times I thought he said plainly stupid things, things that could haunt you later, things that spoke to a lack of personal and professional control. I’m not sure how his interview process went but I wonder if he was markedly different in that setting. I doubt it though. That fact, among others, is why I have very little faith in ownerships ability to spot, let alone nurture coaching talent.

I like all of you have zero idea how KS will play out. I’m hopeful that ownership got out of their own way just long enough to maybe luck into a good set of moves. I like that he and Berry are proven smart people. I know that doesn’t often play very well in a blue collar town like Cleveland but for leaders of complex, dynamic, fast changing groups, I want smart, highly organized, disciplined people. He has impressed me with what he’s said and what he hasn’t said. I very much appreciate the instructions (purported) to the team to keep the press chatter, stupid boasting etc, to a minimum. There seems to be an abundance of logic on a number of levels for the players they’re assembling. They seem to have an actual a plan, a system. They answer questions well without over-answering. I don’t get the sense this group is going to let emotions get the best of them. That’s actually a detractor for a lot of fans who love fiery, emotional leaders.

All that said I have no idea if they’ll have success. We’ve been handed a turd sandwich with this covid situation in their first year. That brings the success likelihood down dramatically for all the first year coaches. I also don’t know what kind of a leader he is. Being smart is the most important thing at this level. You can’t learn raw smarts. (There’s my elitism again.) But you can learn to be a good leader. Funnily enough, the smartest people are often the hardest to teach the heart-level requirements of being a good leader. And you need both to be a really good NFL head coach imo. So, like most of you said... we’ll see.

Some of you may already know of Brett Kollman. He is, imo, one of the most astute analysts on the internet. He did a 29 minute video and analysis of Baker, the Browns and Freddie last year, towards the end of the season. His take left me with 2 reactions. First, how could Freddie have f'ed up as much as he did, and two, it made me more optimistic that the Browns can be as good as we hoped they would be last year....IF they have good coaching with Stef et al.

For those that want a quick summary, Kollman said that for some reason when Freddie took over the Browns he started calling the same kind of difficult plays for Mayfield as Hue and Haley did when they were the coaches. And that just like in 2018, when Freddie changed things up midway in season, Freddie changed things for the better midway 2019. The question for Kollman, and for anyone who watches it, is why didn't Freddie continue to call plays from the beginning in 2019 like he did the latter part of 2018? In fact I remember Browns fans even wondering that at the time.

The answer which Kollman gives is that he thinks when the Browns acquired OBJ this changed Freddie's offensive philosophy. A philosophy which made it a lot more difficult for Baker to be successful, especially given the weak OL.

He also dissects Baker's footwork and mechanics. All-in-all a real interesting video. If you haven't seen it I recommend it highly. It's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8nXTjEqhI

It might be a good video overall, but a couple of things are wrong.

Number 1: Hue wasn't calling plays when Baker was here. It was Haley's offense. It was not a collaboration. Hue actually tried to get Haley to incorporate some plays that Baker ran in college. Haley said it was a "process." People freaked out when Hue said he might become more involved in the offense.

Number 2: Freddie didn't change his offense because of OBJ. He adopted his mentor's offense. Bruce Arians. I think the Browns actually underutilized OBJ, especially in crucial situations.

I want to add one other thing.........Florida posted wins and losses by Freddie and Stef as assistants. No offense, but I don't think that is a good use of stats.

I think the most glaring thing to me is that both guys had zero HC experience before getting the Brown's job. That's risky.

I think Freddie wasn't ready to lead a team. He is a prototypical assistant coach. Nothing wrong w/that. Stefanski worries me because I wonder how the locker room will react to him if things get dicey? He is not the most masculine dude. I get that is not politically correct and folks can get all indignant. But, a football locker room is about as politically incorrect as it gets. There is a difference in utopian views and the hard cold reality of the violent world of professional football.

I agree and stated that the stats were meaningless.

What one could take from it is that Stefanski has more winning experience and possibly a clearer picture of the process to achieve it.

But that to is just reaching, and meaningless in Stafanakis path as a HC

None of this can be true.

Baker, the person, is not a good guy.

That's the only explanation. End of story.

I think it clear Stefanski was involved. He likes fullbacks and tight ends. Bingo bamo, we signed a fullback or two, we signed the top FA TE, and drafted another in the 4th round. No doubt he is involved. How much involvement he had in the actual selection process, we'll probably never know. My guess is he at least was able to say I like this guy and this guy. This guy, not so much. Something tells me Berry wasn't going to keep handing him the guys he didn't like all that much.

As for Callahan and other assistant coaches, I am pretty sure they were leaned on in their area, but they are assistant coaches. They are only going to have so much sway.

In the end it comes down to Berry owning 51%. It's his call. The coach probably has all the rest. Depo doesn't really have anything to with the end call, except he can do his best to lead those guys towards this player, or away from another based on the analytics, but that is all pre-draft stuff. He doesn't replace scouting. During the draft, he is only there as support.

It's getting close to the pick, Berry wants info on two players. Depo pulls up the numbers and says it looks like this guy has the better chance.

I think Depos influence is more towards the middle and late rounds during the actual draft. That is where players get bunched up. You still rely on the scouting, but when the scouting grades are all about the same on several players, they ask Paul, what are the metrics saying? Who shows to have the best chance of being a player? Maybe one grades out better than the others.

Well stated.

Bonefish

When people have no information to base their opinions on? Certainly. Thanks for noticing. You just decide who you want to fight with and keep it going. You'll lose in the end like always.

My opinion draws no conclusion because there is nothing to base an opinion on. Try again Grasshopper.

Not to nitpick, but the definition of Opinion is:
1a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.

One does not need to have knowledge of something to have an opinion on it. Opinions can be based on anything, even just pure "gut feelings". And I think that was what he was going for in this topic. Just something to lighten the mood, give us something to talk about etc.

Great comments. The mechanics of his footwork and depth in the pocket is the one area where I feel less confident of Baker. Am glad to hear that you think it's correctable, though I am not so assured.

The way I see it is that it all starts with Baker being shorter. And like Kollmann I am not saying this as a criticism but as an observation.

1) Anything to shorten his depth in pocket, a la Brady, is going to create more difficulty in Baker seeing over the LOS and reduce his window of vision, like Kollmann says. It will also lead to more passes being batted down.

2) I believe that it is mental as much as it is physical. Bottom line is that Baker doesn't have the same confidence in his throwing ability if he is closer to the LOS.

3) Changing a Qb's footwork can be difficult as it is. Depending on muscle memory, level of comfort, etc. sometimes it affects the Qb's effectiveness so much that the coaches decide to work around it (see Bernie Kosar, for example).

4) And that is not considering the almost 'psychological' crutch Baker has in taking that extra step and going back further. So I am thinking that the coaches will have to work around that tendency of his. Teaching him to roll out left could be taught. There is no mental barrier preventing him from doing that. But changing what he does behind center, and not being tall enough, is a mental barrier, imo.

5) For that reason I am concerned that that will always be a part of his game. It can be minimized with good tackle play, keeping a TE or Fb in, and play selection. But that will be his MO. And a good coach will recognize it and account for it, which, at least given Stef's offensive philosophy, seems like a good match.

My point it that I was accused of having a negative opinion or being negative in my opinion. Which is a lie. I'm tired of tab lying. He just has a bone to pick with certain posters and makes crap up.

My opinion is that it could go either way. That Stefanski has no HC experience with which to base an opinion on. That I'm in a wait and see mode and like all Browns fans hope for the best.

That isn't negative. When it comes to tab responding to anything I say it's usually what I call the baby diaper response. You know, always on my ass and usually full of...… well, you know.

I know, you don't like the way the guy sits.

Coaches don't have to look the part. Lets start to name head coaches who might not fit the mold of "man's man"

How about Dick Vermile? He was a good coach, and the guy cried in about 25% of his interviews. Urban Meyer. You know I like him being a Gator and Buck fan. He looks like he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. Oh...Lou Holtz. He was a good coach, no matter he looked and sounded like a lisping lemming.

The reality is everybody isn't going to look like Bear Bryant standing on the sideline.

That's quite true. Great coaches come in differing demeanors. And I would like to add one more thing. We know what Stefanski shows us in a public setting. We have no idea how hw will command a locker room.

I am not claiming to know. I am just not casting dispersions because I think he sits funny.

Time will tell that....oh...Bill Walsh, he could command a room. He didn't come across as Dirty Harry or Rambo.

That was very much my point. As you pointed out, men of differing demeanors have done well at leading men and he may be far more assertive in a private setting. We simply don't know.

Actually, that is a very good point. Now I might have a better understanding of what you said earlier.

A persons outward persona is usually a bit tamed over what happens behind the closed door.

Yes, you have guys like Ditka or Lombardi, you knew exactly what they were thinking and feeling no matter where they were. Most people tend to tone down in public, and save it for a little later.

Tom Landry. I don't ever recall him ranting and raving, and throwing things around. He seemed like a soft spoken guy, but I'll bet that in the meeting rooms, he could be a real SOB.

Not sure if I agree w/your opinion, but I think you are certainly entitled to it and you did not bash anyone on the board. Different opinions on a subject is a good thing.

I have my own humble opinion. I bet there are plenty of NFL QBs who wish they had the weapons and power that Baker has had in Cleveland.

I'm not just basing it off of how he sits. LOL....come on, man. I am not shallow. There is a lot that goes into leading a locker room. I also think the situation w/the Browns might be tougher than w/most teams due to the continuous losing, changing regimes, roster tear-downs, and some very large egos in that locker room.

I'm not saying Stefanski can't lead them, but it could be an issue if things don't go well at the beginning of the season.

All's good. If I came across as unfair, I offer my apology.

If I could hand you a beer right now, I would, and I don't share my beer very often. I either have to like you, or feel like I need to offer a peace offering.

In this case, it is probably both. So the next 2 beers are on me. I know I like you so you get that one, just because. The other is because I probably hurt your feelings a bit, and I don't like doing that.


Got to go. Told pat I would make Chicken Picatta . I have to go get a few chicken breasts to pound, some capers, white wine. Pretty much everything....I do think I have some butter. Not sure what veggie to match...thinking Brussel spouts, because I like them, but if I do that, I have to get some bacon....you have to have some bacon fat in the things.

KEV CAN ....

Only thing i know for sure about Kev is he must be one really well organized man ... i think he is going to be extremely detail oriented and very well organized ... I’m guessing those traits are extremely high on Depo’s list of qualities he lik ... err ... they weigh heavily in his “processes” ... i forgot his role for a sec .. sorry bout that ... *L* ...

FREDDIE WASN’T R, MUCH LESS READY ... NOW ITS KEV CAN!!!!

LETS GOOOOOOoooooooooo

I have a question, and I am not being trying to be stupid here ..... but Baker is 6'1". This is seen as somehow being too short ..... and Aaron Rodgers is 6'2" ...... and height is never mentioned as a factor for him.

These guys play behind OL who are much taller than them. So, how much of a difference is it for a 6'1" QB playing behind an OL made of guys who are 6'4"-6"5" and taller ..... compared to a 6'2" QB behind the same type of players?

j/c

I haven't read the whole thread but thought I'd chime in. My expectations of Stefanski are that he will be business-like and detail-oriented. Recently I've seen some videos that analyze Baker's footwork in his passing drops. I think Stefanski might focus in on this area. Either to make some changes or to scheme around the way he maneuvers in the pocket. I think Stefanski is the kind of coach who will drill down to this level of execution. I think he will demand meticulous execution by players. Stefanski seems to lean toward the cerebral. His personality seems to be of somebody who is emotionally reserved and not prone to letting his frustrations overtake him. He does not seem to have a high degree of impulsivity. Instead planning and preparation appear to be the way he prefers to operate.

I think any effect this coaching staff does have will be able to be seen later on in the season. With us losing a good chunk of the offseason, and with little time to get the systems up and running, implementing culture and accountability will be tough during the crunch.

More excuses.

Just win.

Thanks for the beers and I don't think you were unfair and you certainly didn't hurt my feelings. I just wanted to let you know that I am not that shallow to only use one thing to make an evaluation. Hell, I didn't even make an evaluation. Just wondering what will happen if things don't go well right away. I think it's imperative for this team to have some success early.

We're good.

Bro, I don't think you are being confrontational. Again, I think different opinions are a good thing. It leads to more discussion. I just don't like the guys who continually resort to insults and lies on this board. You don't do either of those things. Disagree w/me all you want. I welcome honest debate.

I agree that most qbs would want to play for Payton. Not sure about Belichick. They would probably want to play for McDaniels, so I guess that is the same thing.

I don't talk about all the coaching changes because so many of already do. There are a ton of excuses for Baker being issued day after day after day. I also believe he has had quite a bit of say in those coaching changes and hires. I've posted links on it.

I really never see folks mentioning all the talent he has around him. Instead, they will even go so far as to criticize the talent around him. I guarantee you that a ton of qbs would love to play w/OBJ, Landry, Chubb, Hunt, etc.

Baker was the first overall choice in his draft class. It seems kinda weird to me that everything has to be perfect for him to even be average. That's not the definition of what you want out of the first overall draft choice. Instead, one would expect a great qb to make those around him better. To lift them up. I haven't seen that in Baker.

With all that said, I haven't given up on him and I think he has a chance to be very good. Just tired of the excuses and his act. Time for him to put the work in and perform. I don't think that is an unfair request.

Early success never hurts anything.


I think the O has the ability to win around 12 games if they play as a team. The D has the ability to lose 10 games.



I think we end up with maybe 9 wins this season if it goes well.


The next year or two we need to address the D.


We aren't very strong on that side of the ball.


All the rules favor the O....even more reason why IMO you need a strong D. You have to try to balance the unjust rules, at least a little bit.

Like I said, different opinions are a good thing. But, I get a feeling you are not liking my opinions, so I'll stop.

It's been said before and should be said again, There's no "I" in team!"

KS has a huge task in eliminating the "I" actions this team suffered through last year.

Now Mayfield: Talented individual with a high ceiling that today is not as good as he thinks he is. There's a few things that must happen for him to be that franchise QB he's supposed to be.

a) It should be mandatory that Mayfield attends off season QB camps. Aside from the technical improvements that could be worked on, IMO he needs to learn NFL situational football which I think he lacks. Baker needs to know when to throw it away. He must learn how to run a 2-minute successful offense. As a QB, there's no greater weapon than the fear you impose on another team if they know you'll score if they let you have the ball in the last 2-minutes of the half or game. Down, distance, clock management, pre snap reads - all areas where Baker is deficient. Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Big Ben, and Wilson are feared QB's in the last 2-minutes and it's no secret as to why they win more often than not. Until Baker masters this he'll just be an average QB.

b. Baker needs to take control of the offense and be the leader. He must demand that his vets help him by doing their job. It's ridiculous to think a 2nd year QB has to tell a veteran where he's supposed to line up. You're not on the field very long if Tom Brady has to tell you where to line up. Success of plays are dependent on execution - allowing a teammate to not execute is a cancer that destroys continuity. A great leader can eliminate these issues.

c. KS and Baker: KS has an offensive game plan for the Browns that would appear to mirror the plan the Vikings used last year. The greatest error would be KS not building the offense to Mayfield's strengths. Many a QB has been ruined at the NFL level because teams have demanded a style of play that is outside the strength of the individual. BAL changed their offensive scheme to match Jackson not for Jackson to match the scheme. BUF success last year with Allen was more due to using his skill set than him being a typical NFL QB. If you're going to draft a run n shoot QB you better be prepared to use his run n shoot skill set. Mayfield will never be successful in the NFL if he's expected to become a clone of Tom Brady - he doesn't have that skill set. Mayfield's skill set is more aligned with Brees rather than a Tom Brady. The point is that Mayfield is not Cousins and Cousins is not Mayfield. Expecting Mayfield to play your way rather than to his skill set is a gross error in judgement.

I think that in 2018 when Freddy took over as OC under Williams the Browns immediately changed the offense to take advantage of Baker's skill set. Now there were errors and areas of correction needed but the Browns were explosive and Baker comfortable in what he was trying to do on the field. In 2019, rather than build on Baker's success with error correction, the Browns play design was more focused on a typical NFL scheme rather than a Baker Mayfield scheme. The positive was that it thrust Chubb to the forefront as one of the games best. The negative was the Browns created a QB that was uncomfortable and not confident. KS biggest challenge this year is to get a confident QB back behind center that has a scheme built on his skill set that maintains and builds upon the Chubb/Hunt factor.

IMO, having a Brown offense focused on Chubb/Hunt that passes 15-20 times per game like SFO or MIN did in 2019 will not get the results that the Browns are hoping for in 2020. Baker's success in the pass game will increase the Chubb/Hunt factor IMO. My hope is the KS plan focuses on this otherwise we may be greatly disappointed again in 2020.

Great point. The fact of the matter is that some people are best suited as the #2 guy. That's not a knock. I count myself as someone in that category. While I have stepped in to that head honcho spot, I've found I'm much more effective as the right hand man.

I totally get what you are saying. And I agree.

I preferred GW over Freddie as HC, although I would have been fine at the time keeping him as our OC given what we saw those last 8 games. I understood the pros and cons of hiring Freddie, so while I did not care for it, I did understand the hire.

My biggest concern last season with Freddie was in regards to what his vision for the team was. What was our offensive identity going to be now that he was going to be the one responsible for it? By the final game of last season, I still don't think that question had been answered.

FFWD to this year... we clearly have an organized approach. Through the players we've acquired we are already seeing what looks like an offense based on a ZBS and presumably heavy on the play action... before this COVID mess he had already met with key players (personalities) and while he didn't divulge the details of those conversations, he did say expectations were a topic that had been discussed.

PitDawg is absolutely correct in that everything is great until you get punched in the mouth. But good organization, planning and preparation help you to absorb that blow and deliver one right back.

While I do like what I'm seeing so far, I'm not terribly excited by it. I don't know why exactly, but I'm just sort of 'meh' about the whole thing. I suspect that may be a good thing though.

I guess if I had to put my finger on one concern, it would be the opposite of how I felt about Freddie. Then, I was wondering if he had a plan and what it was. Now, I wonder if these guys are going to be slaves to the system, or if they have the room and ability to make adjustments?