I have a better proposition and I have PMed you about it. How about that you don't mention me and I don't mention you so our stupid little arguments don't bog down the board? Deal?
You'll never go for that because of how important it is to you to play these stupid, childish, personality games.
Grateful posted a new Terry Pluto article in another thread. I am going to copy and paste the part of it that addresses the linebackers because it's relevant to this thread.
Quote:
ABOUT THE LINEBACKERS
1. I probably value linebackers higher than the current Browns. Remember their front/back approach. The Browns seem to be taking the same approach to linebackers as the Philadelphia Eagles...or former Browns GM John Dorsey. In their view, it’s not a spot to spend big money.
2. The Browns have the NFL’s most salary cap room ($38 million), according to overthecap.com. They not only are working on a mega-deal for Garrett, they also have to consider Larry Ogunjobi, who will be a free agent after the season. They want to keep the veteran tackle.
3. Coming up next season is the 2019 draft class of Baker Mayfield, Nick Chubb and Denzel Ward. The Browns can’t talk extensions for them until 2021, but they have to plan for the future cap spending for their key young players.
4. One of the discussions the Browns had was paying middle linebacker Joe Schobert or Vernon. They decided on Vernon because they believe if he can stay relatively healthy, he’ll make a major impact as a pass rusher.
5. Dorsey wasn’t able to sign Schobert. New GM Andrew Berry didn’t put a lot of salary cap room in his direction. Schobert received a 5-year, $54 million deal ($21 million guaranteed) from Jacksonville, according to overthecap.com.
6. In the defense designed by new coordinator Joe Woods, the premium for linebackers is being placed on speed and coverage skills. They obviously also want sure tacklers. Pass-rush linebacker such as Clay Matthews III doesn’t appear to be in their plans – at least right now. As training camp approaches and Matthews still has no significant offers, perhaps that changes.
ABOUT THE BROWNS
1. The Browns are counting on the young guys, two of them being Dorsey’s picks in 2019: Mack Wilson and Sione Takitaki. The other is 2020 third-round pick Jacob Phillips and veteran free agent B.J. Goodson.
2. The Browns will play three linebackers, or even only two at times in their new defense. Let’s talk about 4-3 scheme. In the middle (Schobert’s) spot will be a duel between Goodson and Wilson.
3. It’s possible Phillips can emerge as the middle linebacker, but it’s hard to project a rookie. He also could be in line to battle for one of the outside linebacker spots.
4. The door is wide open for Takitaki to play one of the outside linebacker spots. The Dorsey front office took Takitaki in the third round. He had some injuries early in camp and during the season and never could get into the regular rotation.
5. There are four key linebackers for three spots: Goodson, Wilson, Takitaki and Phillips. But it’s possible the Browns will use rookie safety Grant Delpit or veteran safety Karl Joseph near the line of scrimmage. That means they’d need only two linebackers.
6. It’s still early to figure out the linebacker situation. The lack of spring minicamps because of COVID-19 doesn’t help. Perhaps they will add someone else.
JC: Read this article this morning with my Rice Krispees and Chobani Yogurt. Listened to Sione Takitaki earlier too.
I'm getting more excited about this upcoming season's linebackers. I wouldn't be surprised if we add someone to the room. I was thinking Myckel Kendricks, but i guess his legal issues aren't behind him.
So, right now, i'm assuming no major upgrade to the group. But I have been thinking about what Andrew Berry said about how you have to give young guys a chance sometimes. That's the approach i'm taking with this.
I do believe it's like CFRS? always talks about, we'll generally always have 2 LBs on the field. Very rarely three. On run-stopping plays like 2nd/3rd and short, maybe three. But generally two.
BJ Goodson, to me, seems more like a role player. His skillset has been defined a bit because he's already played a decent amount of NFL football. But we haven't seen much Takitaki and we haven't seen Jackob Philips. That's the battle that i'm sort of waiting for.
Reading up on defenses lately, the SAM LB doesn't seem to be so important anymore. Theoretically you can have two LBs more suited toward WILL on the field with your MLB, as teams don't run the ball as much anymore (so you don't need a big LB to put over the top of the TE).
In a sense, we might just see the best two/three LBs on the field next season. Less focused on what position they fit into, and more about what skillset they fit for the game/situation.
I agree that the run is decreased across the NFL as a whole. But in our division, the Ravens are probably to team with the highest run to pass ratio in the NFL. If not the highest then close. Pittsburgh is still run heavy compared to the rest of the NFL and the Bengals have a rookie Qb so they should lean on Mixon.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
Do u think i hate Bake? .. IF u pay attention to my posts you’d know I don’t .... yet read some of your fellow sashiettes posts and they paint me as a hater ....
*L* all u want at Pit but Im living proof he’s right ...
I don't think you hate Baker...nor do I think you have some agenda surrounding the guy.
I lol at Pitt - of all people - getting all high-and-mighty about posters' comments, there being only 2 Baker factions and "expectations" etc. It's STILL funny.
I don't think there is a person on this board - or anywhere else in Browns-fan land - who thinks Baker played no part in last year's offensive failures.
We can see the footwork issues...we cannot see the issues with decision-making or who made the wrong read on a particular play. The coaches see the footwork...no way they do not? Does Baker ignore the footwork coaching? WAS there any footwork coaching? Or does he revert to muscle-memory when the doodoo hits the fan? BTW,he CAN work on his footwork without going to Tom House's...house.
I do see constantly-negative, drive-by shooting comments about the guy with as much depth as a teaspoon.
We can pick at each other all day and night...but there is so much that we DON'T know (about what went wrong) and so much that went upside-down that we DO know of, and nothing new has been stated in months.
And we are starting over...again. Two new tackles...two new TEs...and another new batch of coaches...all under the BS COVID shutdown...what could possibly go wrong?
Linebackers? Yeah...we might have a problem there.
You have a lot more enthusiasm that I do about LB. Wilson flashed a lot of athletic ability last year - not always matched by his play of the position. The amount of snaps he took has to be a big positive. I thought Taki looked bad last year. Goodson might be a veteran presence but he looks better suited to a limited back up roll than someone that sees many plays. . . . I think it was The Athletic that broke down every teams roster and had the Browns starting D listed as 4-2-5. Would not be surprised if we play a lot of sets with only 2 LB ... if any of the LB take a giant step forward it would only be a bonus.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I agree that the run is decreased across the NFL as a whole. But in our division, the Ravens are probably to team with the highest run to pass ratio in the NFL. If not the highest then close. Pittsburgh is still run heavy compared to the rest of the NFL and the Bengals have a rookie Qb so they should lean on Mixon.
Yeah. We’ll see some from our division especially Baltimore and Pitt.
Hopefully we can get a lead vs bengals early and end the running threat. That’s one of the best ways to stop the run. Get up 14-0 and keep your foot on the gas
Pitt is a weird situation. They’re just a well balanced team.
With Baltimore we succeeded with two LBs. when Kirko went down the LB room emptied. Takitaki wasn’t getting many reps, nor that Adalius Taylor guy. We still managed to figure that one out.
I’d almost rather have a run blitz oriented attack with five DLinemen against Lamar. We’ve got the DTs to do it with Larry, Sheldon, and Billings. Line Garrett and Vernon our wide (who both can set the edge well), and bare down on Jackson while keeping him in the pocket. Keep Joseph near the LOS and let Delopit follow Lamars eyes to try and make a play. Greedy and Denzel just need to hold their assignments until The DLine comes through
I think I've seen comments about the OL on here where many guys seem to know what they are talking about. ANY LB gurus out there want to tackle where they think the guys that we DO have will play? My guesses on characteristics:
Goodson - 2 down guy...plugs the middle;
Takitaki - More of a pass-rusher;
Wilson - More of a coverage guy;
Phillips - Heir-apparent as the guy to plug the middle;
Harvey - More of a coverage guy.
2 pluggers, 2 cover guys, i push rusher? I dunno.
I don't think the other guys have a legit shot...the FA market is slim. But I still think we add another legit guy...somehow.
Reading Pluto’s article, I didnt realize we were considering re-signing Larry O (at least yet) ... if our coaches think he can make improvements this year, it may be wise to lock him up sooner than later.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
It's exactly as accurate as the accusations you make towards others.
I support Baker and hope to see improvement. I know he has it in him because I saw how he produced in 2918. There are just a lot of question marks there after watching him play in 2019. We will know a lot more about that when and if the 2020 season starts.
All I think most everyone expects to see from Baker is gradual improvement. I for one won't be hard on him at least early in the season. I've said it before and I'll say it again, with a new HC and new coordinators, Covid 19 puts teams in that situation behind the 8 ball. So if things get off to a slow start, I for one consider that a reasonable expectation.
How things go from there will be a different matter. Accountability is a big part of the job description when you're an NFL QB.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Keep Vernon, aggressively pursue Ngakoue when he becomes an unrestricted free agent at the end of 2020 season.
Or, maybe there's a solid DE we could draft?
That's my top need 2021 Draft. DE in 1st round.
Myles Garrett assumes Olivier Vernon's Contract (and then some), draft a DE at a 1st Round Rookie Salary, and begin the process again.
I'm guessing Ngakoue will be somewhere in the low 20's. Garrett will be 25. That's 45 million on two DE's. I don't see the FO wishing to do that.
They're going to hope that a quality DE at a Rookie 1st Round Price. That way they can afford to keep Sheldon Richardson and maybe even extend Big Larry Ogunjobi (although i'm not holding my breath on that one)
If all goes well, we'll get a 3rd round comp pick for Vernon
Good plan ... If our offense and Baker progress (and if Greedy can improve) I think that is a good approach
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Keep Vernon, aggressively pursue Ngakoue when he becomes an unrestricted free agent at the end of 2020 season.
Or, maybe there's a solid DE we could draft?
That's my top need 2021 Draft. DE in 1st round.
Myles Garrett assumes Olivier Vernon's Contract (and then some), draft a DE at a 1st Round Rookie Salary, and begin the process again.
I'm guessing Ngakoue will be somewhere in the low 20's. Garrett will be 25. That's 45 million on two DE's. I don't see the FO wishing to do that.
They're going to hope that a quality DE at a Rookie 1st Round Price. That way they can afford to keep Sheldon Richardson and maybe even extend Big Larry Ogunjobi (although i'm not holding my breath on that one)
If all goes well, we'll get a 3rd round comp pick for Vernon
No doubt you have to allocate so much money per position group unless you have a couple of future HOF's at that position group. Even then you probably have to ton out and trade one unless you decide to go bare bones somewhere else.
That usually doesn't work. Good teams are usually pretty solid across the board. It why as an example teams feel they can deal with running backs on rookie contracts. If your o-line is good, most rooks out of college can be pretty solid.
Sure, you keep a guy like Emmett Smith, but you know what I am saying.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I stated that post as an absolute in response to an absolute about Clowney vs. Oliver. In my estimation, Clowney doesn't offer much more than Oliver. Ngakoue, on the other hand is a highly consistent productive pass rusher who produces sacks. I place more value on that than what Clowney had done year-over-year.
Hopefully we'll get Myles extended sometime this year so we know how much money remains to allocate to this position. That will help inform any decisions about other contracts in this position group.
I don't know how much it will cost to sign Ngakoue, but signing Clowney for the same money currently allocated to Oliver also seems unlikely. I'm open to drafting a player but this upcoming class of pass rushers doesn't appear to have much depth at the moment.
A good to great draftee is an appealing solution. I'm not opposed to that at all.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I was looking at the LBer grades from PFF. This group looks pathetic as of right now. Not saying that the young dudes won't improve, but they need to improve a lot.
I don't think Takitaki and Davis had enough snaps to be ranked among the 89 LBers listed by PFF's rankings, but Wilson finished 83rd and Goodson was 52nd out of the 89 LBers who were ranked.
I think Wilson will improve. I don't think it's a stretch to put that out there.
It's just that putting ourselves in a situation where we have little established talent and are relying on young guys to make a big leap hasn't worked out well for us in the past.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Wilson played way more than he should have as a 1st year later round pick ... we’ll see how much (if he can) he’ll improve. He wasn’t very good last year, despite what he says on social media or how much we wanted him to be good
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
The defense is a Garrett or Vernon injury away from being very bad this year. With both of those guys they are at best middle of the road.
Best case scenario is Ward and Greedy become another Minnifield/Dixon and Delpit is the player everyone thought he would be going into 2019. Those will help keep the defense middle of the pack and maybe slightly above middle. But we are talking all pro seasons from all three for this defense to even have a chance. You also have to hope that one of Wilson or Phillips just studs out of nowhere.
That's a lot of what ifs. Under a culture of instability and impatience.
It would not surprise me if the defense finished in the 25 - 32 range.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
I just cannot disagree with this sentiment more. First, if Baker doesn't play up to a standard next year, you have to find a replacement. The Browns have been trying to find a replacement for 20+ years. Not one single one of those QBs had the pedigree or the talent that Mayfield has. So instead of recognizing he's been dealt a crappy hand and allowing the time to get him some traction and stability, we want to label this as some type of judgement year where a decision could be made to move on from him.
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this type of thinking. I just can't get there.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
I am going to copy your post and reply to it in the Baker thread. I'd rather keep this thread about LBers.
Vers made a good point. I'm posting my response in the Baker thread.
Last edited by oobernoober; 05/26/2001:28 PM. Reason: Wasn't about LBs :-p
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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