DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns receivers meeting with Baker Mayfield in Austin

I refuse, to watch Golf and Nascar also cage fighting and WWE Whatever, I want real sports Football, Baseball, Basketball even Hockey ... JMHO

The plan, is the plan, man. Keep the fire on the pan. You can't cook hotcakes with a cold fire.

Know what I mean?

You missed Tom Brady splitting his britches after holing out a 140 yard wedge shot. Must see TV.

I am copying and pasting oober's reply to Diam that was in the LBer thread. I think the Baker talk is better suited to this thread.



I think this is a big year for Baker. I am not saying it is a make-or-break year, but it is certainly a defining year. Hopefully, he plays better than he has. Hopefully, he shows signs of being a complete qb rather than a system qb.

I don't think the team should give up on him if he struggles again this year, but oober brought up a good point. This team is loaded w/talent. This team should win a lot of game if they just get a mediocre performance from the qb. It would be a shame to waste all this talent because of the qb.

Unlike some folks on this board, I don't think Baker has been put in a bad situation. I think he has been surrounded by a ton of talent. It's time for him to step his game up. I won't insult anyone or personally attack anyone who disagrees. I will just agree to disagree.

Hopefully, Baker will play well and quell all of these types of discussions. While I am not fond of his personality, I want the team to win and him playing well would go a long, long way to having that dream realized.

To Rish's response from the LB thread...
Fire up your what-if machine and put yourself in your own shoes at the end of this season where Baker hasn't improved his performance despite very positive coaching, scheme, and supporting personnel changes. Let's make it even more extreme, and say he was benched and the offense was revitalized under Keenum (even if it was temporary).

What would your end-of-season take on Baker be?

There's a lot of things you have to define like "hasn't improved". What does that mean?

Here's a better question I think. Say Baker has an "average year". If you aren't in a position to draft Lawrence, who are you going to replace him with that has the same pedigree and talent? And by pedigree I mean successful college QB at a top program, Heisman winner, number one overall draft pick, sets rookie TD record.

This isn't plug and play. It's time to nurture, teach, train, and develop. Things the Browns never do.

Not really. It means he looks similar to last year.

I'll respond in kind.... What do you mean by average? IMO, NFL average would be a significant improvement from last year.

Again, I'll repeat that I am in Mayfield's corner. I think he's got the skills and the attitude to work hard, improve, and make it. It doesn't hurt that he has about as good a supporting cast as you can ask for. I wouldn't hold it against you if you told me this was a pointless conversation, but

It's probably not pointless, but we see things differently. For me, Mayfield would have to really fall on his face this year to even consider moving on from him. A real collapse. Worse than last year.

My reasons are I don't believe there will be anyone better to replace him. And I don't believe we will have given him enough time to develop under stable conditions. I also believe he possesses a tremendous amount of talent that given the right time and situation will blossom.

I was extremely critical of Baker last year. Extremely. But time and cooler heads have changed my perspective. I think moving on from Baker barring a major collapse (I'll define that as worse season than last year) would be a sign of impatience and the instability that has plagued this organization for two plus decades.

That IS the next box on the flowchart. Replace him with _____?
I'm of the same sentiment, we would really need to see Baker regress and show signs that he is simply not "the man" in order to throw in the towel. Barring total collapse, we won't have the fire-power to draft the next great QB. What then? Recycled veteran or 100m QB?

We just weren't engineered to constantly change the construction of this team. This was "build a team with great young talent on cheap contracts" plan. Changing it now is two years too late. With that said, Baker is obviously the most important piece, but there are bigger goals next year... Cohesion, from the top of the organization down, and a march towards "plug and play" on both sides of the ball.

Those things AND Baker stepping up to the plate are the only chance for greatness. Either one comes true and there is a gambler's chance. Neither? A multiyear stretch of wallowing in mediocrity, or worse.

Baker has all the tools and has more than enough talent around him. No excuses. If he stinks next year - we're in a world of hurt. I hope last year was enough to humble him (and others) and everybody adopts the mantra. "WORK".

That's fair.

I am rooting for Baker, and I think he can do it. That said, I would be really disappointed if we looked back and found we wasted years with our current roster on a QB that didn't make it.

I don't think Baker has put his best foot forward and has been his own worst enemy. I think he has a level of stubborness and cockiness that works against him. He has to own that.

But he got drafted into one of the most unstable franchises in all of sports. He is about to start his 3rd year and is on his 4th head coach, 4th offensive coordinator, 3rd QB coach, and 2nd GM. A new system every year, sometimes mid-year.

He does have talent around him, but talent without leadership, stability, and chemistry won't be realized. This is why the three most important positions in the NFL is owner, coach, QB. Having great wide receivers only makes a difference when everything else is in line.

Baker has to own what he can control, but I don't know how anyone can say Baker wasn't put into a bad situation. Unless all of those changes in just two years is no big deal.

It wasn't a bad situation. It was a horror/comedy, can't-make-this-stuff-up situation.

I agree w/your first statement too. I think Baker’s chip on his shoulder is his best friend and worst enemy. He’s pretty arrogant ... maybe even to the point of not putting in the work and being as coach able this past offseason.

Nobody knows for sure, but he’s got the chance to make improvements now

Your 100% correct .... Just like a qb won’t realize his talent if he thinks folks that can help with his mechanics when your footwork stinks and leads to high inaccurate throws are nothing more than broom-sweepers ... a qb’s talent won’t be realized if he can’t become more than a one read QB and learn to read D’s better ... and a qb thinking its going to be easy is definitely a roadblock to a qb realizing there potential ...

I stil don’t understand why u think expecting progress out of Bake is so unreasonable ... makes no sense to me ...

I think you left out the part of the post you responded to that would come closest to what you are talking about.



Just my personal 2 cents - but I find Rish's post pretty damn reasonable compared to someone saying Baker wasn't put into a bad situation .... it boils down to this - Baker can and WAS put in a horrible situation AND he had oodles of talent around him at the skill positions last year. And on top of that - he owns a large slice of his poor play last year regardless of the bad situation.

Backdoor stalking ... nice ... *L* ..

Man ... I thought you were an old dude, not some prepubescent kid. It's a message board. I responded to your post. That was about someone else's post that was about someone else's post ... I referenced all 3 while I replied to you because you were so selective in your 'quote' that didn't include the part that would have actually been relevant to what you wrote. . . . and now responding to what people say on a message board is stalking? . . . hey - cue the 'rent free' tweenager garbage too why not Nice.

I think you are a very reasonable poster. Thus, I will discuss this w/you. It will not upset me in the slightest if we disagree. Perhaps we can have a good exchange of ideas and casual readers can learn from the exchange.

I understand why some folks say they think he was put in a bad situation. They might point to the putrid record of the team before he arrived here. They have certainly brought up the changing of the coaching staff. I get that. It makes sense.

Here is my counter argument. I believe that while the team was terrible before he got here, John Dorsey upgraded the overall talent of the roster by leaps and bounds. Part of that was due to the assets he had available and that discussion is for another time. The bottom line is that the roster was much better when Baker came on board than it was the previous two to three years.

I also think that Baker had some say in these coaching decisions. I don't think he liked either Hue or Haley. I think he did support the hiring of Freddie and was friendly w/Lindley.

The main reason why I don't think he was thrust into a bad situation or a horrific one is that he was given what he wanted and more importantly, was surrounded by superior talent. I think the Browns offensive weapons were tops in the NFL. One might argue KC or NO, and I can see that. But, the Browns were right there. I think the best, but certainly one of the top 3.

He has had OBJ and Landry. The best WR duo in the entire league.

He has had Chubb and Hunt. The best RB combo--by far--in the league.

His OL was ranked second overall by PFF in his rookie year. It fell off significantly last year, but they were still middle of the pack in pass pro last year. Do you realize that Cam Erving was starting a LT for a good part of the year in KC?

I fully agree that coaching was an issue last year. I am not saying he was in a great situation. I said that his situation wasn't bad. I guarantee you that plenty of QBs would have loved to trade spots w/him last year.

Here is something that might amuse you. I get on Baker plenty, but I actually wagered $100 on him winning the MVP last year. I did so because I thought he had talent, but more importantly, I thought his supporting cast was the best in the NFL.

Feel free to debate me. I know you will do so honestly.

I don't think expecting progress is unreasonable. It's the reaction of what we do if the progress isn't there that I think could be unreasonable.

I know you don't want me responding to you and you won't respond back. By now you should know that I do not care about either of those things.

I don't think Baker getting what he wanted is evidence that he was in a situation that "wasn't bad". Actually it could be the opposite - evidence that the situation was bad when the team defers to a cocky, immature 23 year old and allows him to influence hiring decisions. Dorsey should have known better, but he was too busy trying to win a power struggle with Depo. That's about as bad as it gets.



I don't think talent is an issue, and I do think a lot of QBs would want to be in Baker's shoes, but I also believe that if you took an experienced, seasoned QB who has had some success, he probably would have had more success with the talent. I think a QB like Baker would have likely had the same results. Being envious of another's situation doesn't provide proof that the situation "wasn't bad".

I would agree about the talent.

I think coaching is just as important if not more important than talent. I think that is evident going from the first 8 games of 2018 to the 2nd 8 games of 2018 to the entire 2019 season. If talent is the only thing that mattered, we would have been worse in 2018 than in 2019.

A seasoned, experienced QB may have won more games last season. An inexperienced QB in his second year in the NFL would not have prospered any more than Baker did. In other words someone like Darnold, or Rosen, or Allen, or Lamar, or probably even Mahomes would not have faired any better within last year's situation. Maybe a vet like Brady, Ryan, Brees or Rivers gets us to playoffs. Maybe.

There's a reason why the experts say Mahomes went to the perfect situation in KC. There's a reason why the experts say Lamar went to the perfect situation in Baltimore. ... Because it matters.

No arguments about the talent. Our supporting cast (on paper) is up there w/ best in the league. I do think that that positive was somewhat offset by the Freddie factor, but not so much that I feel this point should be argued. The talent surrounding Baker was 'good situation'.

Despite that, I still think the overall situation was bad for Baker's development. You mention the hiring process itself... Baker getting what he wanted in terms of coaching. I think (as another poster also pointed out) that this is evidence of a bad situation (if it is true). I don't think the theory behind Baker being involved in the hiring was actually confirmed... and there's a fine line between "Baker, who do you want as your HC, OC, and QB coach?" and "Hiring team, Baker knows this guy and has worked well with him, let's keep that in mind while we make a decision". If you're saying what actually happened was the first situation, (that Baker had an active role in deciding the next HC), then that's evidence of a bad situation... weak leadership at the very top of the org (which we already know is poor).

Then there's Freddie being hired, and the culture he starts to put in place. I think Williams did as good a job as is possible, in terms of culture, during the limited time he had as HC. Freddie had a good start to work from and completely eroded the discipline of the team. I think that then trickled down to individual discipline. I hate going all-caps but, I AM NOT LETTING BAKER OR OBJ OFF THE HOOK FOR ACTING LIKE DUMMIES (their behavior is their own responsibility), but the environment (which is what we're talking about) around them wasn't conducive to being disciplined.

Lindley sucked as a QB coach. I think we can all agree here and leave it at that. Bad situation.

Offensive scheme... this has been beat to death already, so I'll make it as brief as possible. Freddie had the offense that was working from the year prior, removed most if not all of what worked and put in a lot of new stuff. I'm not saying that Baker should continue to be coddled in terms of limiting the offense to make it easier on him, but he was doing addition his rookie year, and then Freddie bumped him (and really the offense as a whole) straight up to Calculus in year 2. Bad situation.

Lastly, Baker has operated within at least 3 offensive schemes in his 2 years in the league (Haley, Haley/Freddie, Freddie). Maybe there was even a 4th, as our offense was very different from game1 to game16 last year. Baker has worked under 3 different HC's and 2-3 OC's in his 2 years. That's bad situation.

We disagree on some things, but that is okay. I do want to say that I did not say he was in a good situation. I bring that up because you put it in quotation marks. I said I don't think he has been in a bad situation. I think that there are a lot of excuses being made for Baker. I get it, but I just don't agree w/it.

Bottom line, he needs to play better and behave like a responsible adult. He's our qb for at least this year and probably next year. I am still hoping he gets it and is the guy who can finally lead us out of this miserable abyss.

Not since Johnny Manziel and Josh Gordon showed up.

j/c

From reading the thread I think people are actually discussing two totally different things and both sides make a point here.

First, Baker has certainly been given talent and weapons to work with. So from a talent perspective I think he was put in a pretty good situation.

When looking at all of the coaching changes and unrest in the FO, from a stability standpoint he was put in a terrible situation.

From the standpoint of Baker "helping himself" he seems to have dismissed using a private QB coach in both of his off seasons. Even great QB's like Tom Brady have made use of tweaking their abilities in such a way. So those bringing up his arrogance being a negative in such a way I believe have a solid point.

There are certainly issues he could have worked on with a private QB coach during both off seasons. Not only did he refuse to do so, he degraded private QB coaches by calling them broom sweepers.

I haven't heard any outrageous comments from Baker for some time actually. I consider that a positive. I never want a player to lose that competitive edge, however, making such comments isn't about competition, it's about degrading others. I am hoping his recent lack of such type of comments is a sign of things to come.

There's nothing unusual about a young person who has reached great success being loud and brash. Often times a nice slice of humble pie helps rectify that. I hope that's the case here.

As for replacing Baker. That's certainly a premature thing to even be discussing at this point IMO.

But since it has been, I don't think anyone is hoping he fails. We are all hoping to see some improvement from him. But I do feel there are a couple of factors to consider. The first is this FO did not draft Baker. They are not tied to him. Secondly, they paid a high price for a back up in terms of back up contracts. Baker isn't the only talent on this team.

While some see it as if we replace Baker which direction do we go? What would the point be? It could be this FO sees it as look at all of the talent we have on O. They may not wish to waste that roster on a QB who performs quite poorly. At that point they may see an average QB at an average price and upgrade.

I have no idea but I do feel that's food for thought.

Actually I think both 'sides' of that debate recognize both angles - talent to work alongside and coaching/organization.

It boils down to whether you think (or want to claim) because of the high talent level, regardless of having the most change and most dysfunction in 2 short years of any QB, OC changes and Freddie (imo worst HC in the history of the NFL) ... you still want to suggest his situation was not bad.

OR - you can look at the whole and say, despite the high caliber talent he has to play alongside at the skill positions, Baker was in a bad situation because of Hue, Haley, Freddie version 1, Freddie version 2 etc.

Personally I thought the most succinct review was when a poster sighted how important coaching was to success by looking at 2018 pre and post Hue. Same talent. Same roster. Wildly different results. So talent is a factor for sure - but probably not as big a factor as coaching. Maybe look at NE as an example - Belichick has done more with less (notably when he lost Brady and when he had skill players playing both ways covering injuries) than most coaches ever could/would. jmo

I don't really disagree with you but I also feel one must also consider the factor that Baker didn't take advantage of working with a private QB coach during the off season to help himself. I don't feel Freddie version one was a problem at all.

I think one question people haven't honestly asked themselves is could the very simplistic one read bang bang O Freddie version one ran have been sustainable in the NFL. It wasn't that hard to figure out and diagnose. It had to evolve in order to have any long term success. But he certainly had no idea how to create a proper strategy to do that.

Your post is fair and logical. I am not looking to change your mind at all. However, I will say that I am not looking at his situation just from one angle.

I see both the talent and the coaching. I also recognize that the GM tried to support Baker as much as he possibly could. Other posters think that is a bad thing, but I do not. The team invested the first overall pick on Baker. They tried to do everything they could to support him. That isn't a sign of incompetence. Instead, it makes a lot of sense.

While I recognize that coaching was an issue, I think most of Baker's problems were his own. I know enough about the game to be able to see those issues.

As far as replacing him goes.............I am NOT an advocate of that at all. I think the team should throw their full support behind him this year, just like they have the past two years. Give him the keys to the bus and let him drive it. You gotta hope he "gets it" and performs well. I think he should be the undisputed starter all season long. At the end of the year, formulate a brand new evaluation. Jerking him around during the season and/or not fully supporting him would be a mistake, in my opinion.

Agree Baker didn't help himself (and needs to) - and Freddie V1 was no issue, but simply writing "Freddie" doesn't reflect or address the fact there are two sides and V1 was positive ... V2 was horrendous.

Doesn't matter Rish, with the "pedegree" he has, and with the talent around him and with a coach that seems to have his head screwed on right, I'd be shocked if he didn't show up big and play like a winner.. More resembling his rookie season. JMO however.

We certainly agree on almost all points. Maybe even all points but we haven't quite gotten there yet. But our back and forth I feel truly demonstrates that often times those who seem to be in opposition of each other can often times be closer than it appears on the surface when willing to have an honest dialogue.

Where we may or may not disagree is on the need to add to and improve the offense in 2019. My contention is that we couldn't just stick with the status quo from 2018. It was far too basic not to expand on. The one read, bang bang offense was far too simplistic to keep working without opposing D's figuring it out and neutralizing it. So the system of 2018 had to be expanded upon.

Now to clarify on that, I don't think that's what Freddie did. I think he changed the offense, not expanded it. I could be wrong about that but from my perspective he didn't take Baker's strong suits and add to the playbook in ways to take advantage of those skills. That's where it all fell apart.

At the same time, as a QB grows and matures you expect his skill set to do the same. You should be able to add new wrinkles and your QB to be able to pick up on them as time goes by.

In this case, Freddie wasn't adding wrinkles and expecting Baker to pick up on them. Rather he made wholesale changes and expected Baker to adapt everything to fit those changes. From my perspective Freddie tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Hmmmm.

I would rather he wait to show us rather than talk about it.

Yeah, he should have just no-showed on a scheduled press conference he had to do.

What does his quote mean?