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In this case, Freddie wasn't adding wrinkles and expecting Baker to pick up on them. Rather he made wholesale changes and expected Baker to adapt everything to fit those changes. From my perspective Freddie tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Yep. I don't know how much I agree with all the success in 2018 being based on a one read option/scheme. I think we saw on Baker sometimes made progressive reads - I think we saw Baker sometimes move a safety with his eyes ... But even if it was a one read scheme, or a half field scheme (that's more of the definition I would use) then it was something we didn't see teams really adapt to and shut down in 2018 ... and I believe defenses had PLENTY of time to adapt and shut down Baker in 2018 is it was truly a dumb-ed down scheme like some have tried to imply. Why we moved away from it - no clue - I'm a fan of doing something over and over and making someone stop you doing what you do well... and if they do stop you, you have something that looks similar personnel wise, but it's designed to burn the D if they over commit to stopping what was plan A. Where as we did the wholesale change 'just because'... I am looking forward to seeing BM and how he performs under KS ... I see he's had a presser and talking about him enjoying being coached by KS and also how his footwork change is going well. Bodes well and indicates, contrary to what some have suggested or feared, that Baker won't accept coaching.
Last edited by mgh888; 05/27/20 04:12 PM.
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"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Baker I believe is still a good QB.
But you when you have Landry and OBJ.
That's 2 WRs with strong egos he had to
Appease with targets.
Lets not forget BM broke Mannings record
Without OBJ.
Think about that.
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What does his quote mean? It means none of them are getting any younger. Their windows is NOW and perhaps the next two to three years, tops. After that, those guys will be falling away and we'll be rolling up new WRs... so, if OBJ & Landry want to be part of a ring here, their time is right NOW.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What does his quote mean? It means none of them are getting any younger. Their windows is NOW and perhaps the next two to three years, tops. After that, those guys will be falling away and we'll be rolling up new WRs... so, if OBJ & Landry want to be part of a ring here, their time is right NOW. There = Their
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not a big fan of that quote .... hope its more a metaphor than his mind set about forcing the ball to the overpaid one and OBJ cause I like how mature the rest of what he said sounded ... Seems like he listened to a broom sweeper ... 
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j/c:
I actually like the most of the comments Baker made. Hopefully, he has his stuff together this year.
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Another poster said "Hmmmmmmmm." Why is it interesting?
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I just read it as things don't last long in the NFL. Jarvis has already been with the Browns for the NFL equivalent of a lifetime. Key players are coming up to the end of their rookie contracts and we have some tough decisions to make.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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While I recognize that coaching was an issue, I think most of Baker's problems were his own. I know enough about the game to be able to see those issues.
I think it's totally fair to point out that there was enough talent on the team that Baker had an opportunity to achieve more than he did. Some of those were opportunities he passed up on before the season started. I'd even cede the idea that Freddie's scheme may not have played as big a role in Baker's lack of improvement than what others, or even I may have originally believed. I think where Freddie failed the most, and what had a bigger impact on Baker was that he didn't (at least it appears) hold Baker to any real degree of accountability. I view that in the context of wondering just what we reasonably could have expected from him in terms of not only maturity but also knowing what it means to be a professional. Some people intuitively know what it means to be a professional but I think you'd agree that Baker wasn't someone anyone would accuse of being professional. Just my opinion, but if Baker had been saddled with real accountability, and a concerted effort had been made to develop him as a 'professional', everything else would have fallen in to place (off season workouts, less media spats, etc).
I see both the talent and the coaching. I also recognize that the GM tried to support Baker as much as he possibly could. Other posters think that is a bad thing, but I do not. The team invested the first overall pick on Baker. They tried to do everything they could to support him. That isn't a sign of incompetence. Instead, it makes a lot of sense.
If you just say "the GM tried to support Baker as much as he could" I don't think anyone would disagree that it is bad thing. But that GM or whomever else is supporting Baker HAS to be able to say "Yes Baker, I know you want this, but it is not what you need and will not help you get to where you need to be. No" There is a line between support and enabling. I think perhaps Dorsey provided a mix of the two.
Last edited by DevilDawg2847; 05/27/20 09:04 PM. Reason: Though I found a clue to Epstein's killer
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Good post.
I do want to be clear about something. I do think that Freddie did a terrible job last year. I am not absolving him and blaming Baker for everything. That would be dumb.
Freddie failed as a HC. I think he probably hurt Baker. I am just saying that I don't think Baker's situation was as bad as many are making it out to be.
Folks can disagree w/that and that's cool. I just wanted to reply to you to make sure I am not being misunderstood. I do put part of Baker's ineptitude on the coaching. Just not as much as some others.
A lot has been made of coaching on this thread and in others. Yet, a guy like McCarthey was a Super Bowl winner and a perennial contender w/Rodgers. When Rodgers got hurt, GB was awful. A guy like Caldwell won big w/P. Manning and then sucked w/out him. Shanny was something like 1 and 10 w/out Jimmy G and then 5 and 0 w/him. The next year, the 49ers won 3 or 4 games w/out Jimmy G. They were in the Super Bowl the following year w/him. Rivera was in the SB w/Cam. Cam gets hurt and Rivera is fired because the team stinks. Houston sucked w/out Watson and we got the 4th overall pick because of his injury. Watson comes back and they have made the playoffs ever since. I could go on and on and on.
Coaching matters, but I think some folks are blowing smoke up people's behinds w/how much of an affect coaching influenced guys like Baker and Mahommes.
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Good stuff here.
https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/bak...nique-offseason
He said 9 are participating....Including Case Keenum and of course the before mentioned Hooper. We know OBJ and Landry are not there due to surgery rehab. So pretty much everyone else.
Baker is a smart guy and has good Football IQ he will be fine!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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j/c
Baker was drafted into a train wreck of a team and organization. The team had won ONE game in the previous two seasons and fired GMs/Exec VPs before any culture - other than dysfunction - could take hold. We were the t-shirt, poster-child of ruined QBs.
His first head coach decreed that Baker would not take any reps with the first team. None.
He would enter his first NFL game after an injury to the "starter" where/when he took his first-ever snap from his Center and won the game. It was ridiculously and painfully obvious that he was already significantly better than was the "starter". 1st team reps or not.
He had Jarvis Landry and...well..Jarvis Landry as his weapon. That is until the new GM traded the "starting" RB so he could add Nick Chubb to Jarvis Landry...so those were his weaponS.
In that same first season his head coach would be fired as was the Offensive coordinator. The dysfunction was as ridiculous as the decision for him to not get any 1st team reps. He went on to break Peyton Manning's rookie TD record.
That is the situation he was brought-into. Terrible coaching of a bad team with limited weapons and no 1st team work up to being inserted into a game. You couldn't make up a worse situation for a rookie QB if you tried.
---------------------------------------------------------
Year 2 would HAVE to better, right? Nope. Prior-year genius OC becomes head coach and completely loses his mind/way. All-Pro RG is traded and a folding chair is put in his place...exposing the folding chair to his right.
Weapons are brought in though...we were told that by the national talking heads. Not really. OBJ was hurt all year and limited in practice and games. Hunt wouldn't play until week 11. WR3 goes back on the bowl and his prior-year security blanket goes into the doghouse. He had no real TE to speak of on the team. (Imagine Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz with our 2019 TEs.) But...but...but...we added all those weapons...not.
At the end of the season, the head coach AND GM are both canned...again.
Again...if you sat around and dream t up the worst scenario you could think of to put a rookie QB in...you couldn't top the above several paragraphs.
That ^ is what Baker Mayfield was brought into.
Pre-season of Baker's year #3 and we look to have gotten our act together...favored HC and GM...should have 2 healthy, stud WRs...and RBs...and good TEs...and actual NFL OTs...and COVID 19. If Baker was initially "brought into" the team and org that is noted here, I would agree that he was brought into a good situation. But that simply isn't the case.
Just my $.02
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I don't disagree with a thing you stated.
However, I think the whole Baker equation has been beat to death. Everyone has a opinion and that is all fine and good.
Not trying to change anyone's mind.
I like what Baker just said. Or, put more precisely what conclusion he has reached.
The time for talk is over. Go to work. All that counts is winning.
I am fine with the team we have. If we can improve by addition before the season; then do it.
Although we have not seen a thing. I like what the offense is suppose to look like. We could have the best run game in our division. I love TE use. You need the right players but TE's can create mismatches. I like a lead blocking fullback. It gives the runners more options.
But what I like the most is play action. Baker's numbers are way better in play action. It makes perfect sense why.
The investment in Conklin and Wills is a huge upgrade and should serve both the run and pass game production.
So conceptually I am all in.
It is a damn shame we are not under normal conditions. What effect that this condition will have remains to be seen.
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Exactly.
Just win.
Don't need to hear another single interview. Don't care to know anything more about our players or coaches. Just win. That's it. Period. Just win.
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I don't disagree with a thing you stated.
Patrick Mahomes is considered the best qb in the league right now. Former players are saying that he might go down as the greatest qb of all-time. He sat his first year. He only started the last game of the year. Did Andy Reid put him in a terrible situation by doing so? People say that Hue ruined Kizer by playing him too early. They then turn around and complain that Baker didn't get first team reps. That doesn't read a little contradictory to you? Again, I think people are making too many excuses for Baker's poor play. Yes, there were factors that didn't help him, but good qbs overcome those things. He was the first overall pick in the draft. I don't think everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good. Perhaps we should expect him to make others better? I'm not trying to change your mind, but I think my argument is valid.
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It's possible Baker is not a good QB for the reasons you listed. But you're comparing him to QB who is already on a HOF track. Baker is likely not a HOFer. I do think Baker has an issue raising his level of play and those around him. He's not clutch. Cream rises to the top under adverse conditions. Baker sinks under adverse conditions.
But I don't think that means he's not good enough to win with under the right situation. If you want Baker to bulldoze his way through less than ideal conditions - which it seems like you do - then you are probably going to be disappointed. But if you change you perspective to "good enough to win with under the right circumstances", he might meet those expectations.
And I still go back to the replacement factor. Even if Baker is not a HOF QB, that doesn't mean he's easily replaceable either. He's got talent. The talent he has is not easily replaceable. It's just not generational talent.
The only way Baker probably becomes a generational talent is if he cerebrally turns into Manning or Brady. I just don't think that's in his DNA.
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There is a grand canyon-sized difference between "everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good" and the cluster that he was brought into.
The lack of 1st team reps is not mentioned in defense of Baker in any way...but it shines a light on the incompetence of his first head coach in propping up Tyrod Taylor while not even letting Baker compete for the job...a job he demonstrated in one evening that should have been his all along...let alone something he should have been allowed to compete-for. The locker room had to see in camp what we saw in Baker's first game.
Just to be clear. The point in mentioning a lack of 1st team reps is a critical comment of Hue's ability (or lack thereof) to see what he has in a QB and how to develop that QB.
To this comment :
"Yes, there were factors that didn't help him, but good qbs overcome those things. He was the first overall pick in the draft. I don't think everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good. Perhaps we should expect him to make others better?"
Baker did "overcome those things"...he came into the game cold...with no first team reps...and led his team to it's first win in months. He QB'd his team to it's 2nd win in the past 35 games. THEN went on to break the rookie TD passing record.
I'd say that he did exactly what you are saying he should.
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Not sure I get the debate about 1st team reps, starting and not starting. . . . is anyone going to suggest that Mahomes - while not starting for most of the year - took no reps with the 1st team until he was going to start? Also not sure where Kizer becomes relevant. And not sure how it relates to Baker and whether the organization was a mess or not.
The organization was a cluster when Baker was drafted. That is a bad situation for any rookie QB. Last year Dorsey was a postive influence on the talent the team acquired but the HC and play calling was Freddie who was a disaster. That would be a bad situation for any QB in his second year. I smell more manufactured and deliberate agitation on this subject because we are splitting hairs at this point on verbiage and definitions.
To me it's simple:
1. From an organizational stand point - Baker has been involved in a big fat mess since he got here. Even with Dorsey on board, we still had Freddie as a bigger influencer on the team, the play calling and Baker on game days ... Hoping KS and Berry are the answer.
2. From a talent perspective at the skill positions - Baker was in a fortunate situation last year, but because of Freddie any benefit to the talent was diluted at best, wasted at worst.
3. Baker played badly - it was accentuated by Freddie - but Baker played badly all by himself and I believe he would have played and executed poorly under the very best coaching last year. He was off - needs to improve, period. Doesn't mean Baker was in a good situation and messed up - it means Baker was in a bad situation and would have still struggled in a good situation.
jmo
Last edited by mgh888; 05/28/20 02:11 PM.
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Comparing Andy Reid and the Chiefs to the Browns?
IMO if Mayfield would have been drafted by the Chiefs the wins and loses would be similar. Speculation? Sure.
Kizer? Not applicable.
The song by Hue was what? Baker will not start. He will sit and learn.
Coaching matters. However, it takes two to win. You need good coaching and good qb play. No mystery there.
I have said there are things about Baker that concern me. Number one being when there were chances to win late in games; he failed.
However, he is young player like Darnold. Who by the way, I believe will be a good quarterback.
Experience is a requirement. You don't go to bad teams and elevate their play when you are at the beginning of a career. Did Ben elevate play when he started at Pittsburgh?
They were a lot better than when Baker started here.
Mahomes as archives will verify. I wanted to draft. Went to a perfect situation. Great coach, established team, veteran quarterback starter.
So we begin a new season with a virus to contend with. Virtual teaching etc.
New head coach, GM and entire staff. Trying to implement new schemes. Oh the joy.
In the meantime the Ravens, and Steelers just need to tune up.
Yet this is it for Mayfield deliver or else.
We have talent. I expect improvement. I expect Mayfield to be a better quarterback.
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I don't really understand where you're going with the Mahomes-Kizer-Baker comparison.
Mahomes was a 1st rounder going to a team with an established starter. He sat because he was raw AND Smith was playing pretty darn good.
Kizer was a 2nd rounder (?) that was pretty consistently thought of as a guy that absolutely HAD to sit and develop.
Baker was a #1 pick that, apparently, was going to sit but then didn't. He was thrust into regular season games with little to 0 reps with the guys he was playing with.
Sorry. How you can compare the three, much less draw a conclusion, is beyond me.
So no, I don't think it's contradictory.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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I have no idea exactly what Vers meant but I can tell you the way I took it.
I don't really think the names of the teams nor the names of the QB's matter. I think it's more about the philosophy. There are two main thought processes when it comes to rookie QB's. Throw them into the fire right away or let them sit and learn first. Both plans have worked and both plans have failed. I'm certain that you have a point about the situations and the players as to where there would be variables involved in such decisions.
But I think the bigger overall point here is that often times fans like to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand, let's use the Kaiser situation since it has already been mentioned, people complained that he should have sat and learned. Then when it came to Baker they complained he didn't get first team reps.
Now I realize that these are two different QB's. But considering the system Baker was coming from in college, I'm not sure how from a fans perspective anyone should have actually expected he was ready to command and run an NFL offense any quicker than the coaching staff did.
Should they have known better? Since they are the professionals working with him on a daily basis and were hired to evaluate such things, I would say yes.
But from a fans perspective all of the back and forth is from a hindsight perspective. On one hand Kiser was ruined by being thrown into the fire and Baker was stagnated by not getting first team reps. It's like they want to have it both ways.
To that end I see the point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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j/c
Baker was drafted into a train wreck of a team and organization. The team had won ONE game in the previous two seasons and fired GMs/Exec VPs before any culture - other than dysfunction - could take hold. We were the t-shirt, poster-child of ruined QBs.
His first head coach decreed that Baker would not take any reps with the first team. None.
He would enter his first NFL game after an injury to the "starter" where/when he took his first-ever snap from his Center and won the game. It was ridiculously and painfully obvious that he was already significantly better than was the "starter". 1st team reps or not.
He had Jarvis Landry and...well..Jarvis Landry as his weapon. That is until the new GM traded the "starting" RB so he could add Nick Chubb to Jarvis Landry...so those were his weaponS.
In that same first season his head coach would be fired as was the Offensive coordinator. The dysfunction was as ridiculous as the decision for him to not get any 1st team reps. He went on to break Peyton Manning's rookie TD record.
That is the situation he was brought-into. Terrible coaching of a bad team with limited weapons and no 1st team work up to being inserted into a game. You couldn't make up a worse situation for a rookie QB if you tried.
---------------------------------------------------------
Year 2 would HAVE to better, right? Nope. Prior-year genius OC becomes head coach and completely loses his mind/way. All-Pro RG is traded and a folding chair is put in his place...exposing the folding chair to his right.
Weapons are brought in though...we were told that by the national talking heads. Not really. OBJ was hurt all year and limited in practice and games. Hunt wouldn't play until week 11. WR3 goes back on the bowl and his prior-year security blanket goes into the doghouse. He had no real TE to speak of on the team. (Imagine Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz with our 2019 TEs.) But...but...but...we added all those weapons...not.
At the end of the season, the head coach AND GM are both canned...again.
Again...if you sat around and dream t up the worst scenario you could think of to put a rookie QB in...you couldn't top the above several paragraphs.
That ^ is what Baker Mayfield was brought into.
Pre-season of Baker's year #3 and we look to have gotten our act together...favored HC and GM...should have 2 healthy, stud WRs...and RBs...and good TEs...and actual NFL OTs...and COVID 19. If Baker was initially "brought into" the team and org that is noted here, I would agree that he was brought into a good situation. But that simply isn't the case.
Just my $.02 Excellent post Willie!
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I don't really understand where you're going with the Mahomes-Kizer-Baker comparison.
Mahomes was a 1st rounder going to a team with an established starter. He sat because he was raw AND Smith was playing pretty darn good.
Kizer was a 2nd rounder (?) that was pretty consistently thought of as a guy that absolutely HAD to sit and develop.
Baker was a #1 pick that, apparently, was going to sit but then didn't. He was thrust into regular season games with little to 0 reps with the guys he was playing with.
Sorry. How you can compare the three, much less draw a conclusion, is beyond me.
So no, I don't think it's contradictory. I think Pit did a good job of explaining my thought process. I'll try again just because I think you are a good dude. Mahomes sat for a year and flourished ever since then. Yet, people rip Hue for sitting Baker for part of the season. How is that not clear? Regarding Kizer, the same folks who are ripping Hue for not playing Baker right away are the same folks who blamed Hue for ruining Kizer because he played him right away. How is that not clear? I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/me, but I am not being illogical. I am not an illogical person in anything I do. I think this "terrible situation" is being overblown because they don't have much else to lean on. That's fine. All opinions are welcomed. On the other hand, I have the right to express my opinions, as well. And I sure as hell have a lot more experience in the game than those belittling my opinions.
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Reading how some of you guys have laid everything out, I can't help but comparing the last 20 years of the Browns to the whole Game of Thrones saga. Sure with the Browns there's less sex, nudity, and blood BUT how often does it look like someone is geared up to take the Iron Throne only to be unceremoniously removed? If George R.R. Martin is a Browns fan that would explain why he can't seem to find the closure he needs to end the series. 
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
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My brain feels you should only throw a QB in right away if they have a strong supporting cast to bail them out when they make mistakes. OR if there is no choice.
My heart wants to see them play right away. That hasnt worked too well for us.
No Craps Given
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I know this keeps getting lost in translation, but I have said repeatedly that I think Baker should be the unquestioned starter this year and receive full support from the Brown's organization.
I still have hopes that he can be the guy.
My argument is that certain folks are making way too many excuses for his play. One of the guys used to get on me about Cody Kessler and how unfair I was regarding him. He actually said that Cody was better than Wentz. Another guy, used to rip me repeatedly for saying that it was hard for me to trust Josh Gordon. Their arguments are always the same. The subjects just change.
Think about our PM and the three things you brought up and then think about how those guys "debate."
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Gotta chime in here. A lot of this simply isn't true.
Comparing Mayfield to Kizer? Nowhere near the same in their development when they began their NFL careers.
Kizer was nowhere near ready to take the field when Hue named him the starter. Baker would have been fine to start day 1. He was one of the few ready to start coming out of college.
I don't know that Kizer was "ruined" because he started. I never thought he was that great to begin with. He received first team reps and he still sucked. Baker didn't receive ANY first team reps.
Huge difference being forced into action when not ready and being ready and not receiving any first team reps.
Hue mismanaged BOTH QBs!
The only ones who thought Baker wasn't ready were the ones who didn't like him and those who had a bad taste in their mouth from Johnny and the Kizer stuff. I remember reading crazy statements like Baker should sit 3 years. I'm sorry folks, but Baker was READY! Kizer was nowhere near ready.
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Legend
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Based on how Baker stepped in after a lack of 1st team reps - hard to argue with you that he was ready. My issue is that somehow the argument changed from how poorly Baker was groomed prior to starting - eg on record as having zero first team reps - and whether or not he or Kizer or Mahomes did or didn't start and were successful. I was a Baker fan and wanted him #1 - I also wanted him to sit behind Tyrod thinking Tyrod was going to be the better QB at that stage. I had zero problem with the *plan* - the problem was [1] you still give your future QB in the wings first team reps even if the veteran QB is starting and better ... [2] Tyrod was not playing well - and clearly when Baker was forced to start thru injury, not only was he ill prepared due to lack of 1st team reps ... he was also clearly miles ahead of Tyrod in ability.
All ancient history. All just some people trying to frame a combative argument.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I do think Baker has an issue raising his level of play and those around him. He's not clutch. Cream rises to the top under adverse conditions. Baker sinks under adverse conditions. 100% do not agree with this. No surprise to many I'm sure. I'd actually argue the opposite and that it's part of the reason why he was drafted #1 overall. And I'm not sure what inspired "Baker likely isn't a hall of Famer." I would be ok with it's too early to tell. But to rule him out? Nah. He's likely going to be a great QB for years.
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But from a fans perspective all of the back and forth is from a hindsight perspective. On one hand Kiser was ruined by being thrown into the fire and Baker was stagnated by not getting first team reps. It's like they want to have it both ways.
Question/comment ... as just mentioned, I was expecting Baker to sit behind Tyrod, but I was also expecting Baker to get some 1st team reps. I think that's quite common if you are developing a highly valued draft pick to be the future QB of the team ... I don't see those being mutually exclusive. Am I missing something? Do you see it differently than that?
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I agree with you about Tyrod.
I think he can be capable and was excited we brought him aboard. I would have been fine starting Tyrod, but he wasn't the best option to win games and he was the one on the field.
Baker lead the Browns to their first victory in 19 games. It was his ability and his intangibles that gave us a glimmer of playoff hope. He rose above the negatives and did all the things that is being accused of a good QB without being given any credit for being a good QB.
I don't think last year was a "necessary" humble for Baker. I do think he needs to relax and let the game come to him rather than force things to happen. We need him to be Baker and the QB who can lead us like he did in college. I think he's simply trying too hard. The right coach (Stefanski?) can help immensely.
Coaching is being underrated within this thread.
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Coaching is being underrated within this thread. Anyone want to go back and look and see how many times coaching has been brought up in this thread?
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I believe the thing that is being argued is that there's a double standard when people say Kizer shouldn't have started while complaining Baker didn't get any first team reps.
Their situations were completely different. Kizer wasn't ready and was forced into action while Baker may have been the most ready of all the quarterbacks in the draft.
I can sure you there is no double standard. Kizer wasn't ready. Baker was. Their level of readiness were on the opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Did Oklahoma or ND run more of a pro-style offense?
Btw..........the word is "ensure." Not "sure."
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Coaching is being underrated within this thread. Anyone want to go back and look and see how many times coaching has been brought up in this thread? Guilty.
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Anybody seen my thread? It was here a while ago.
But since we are here, just had a curiosity thought go off in my head. I like your spectrum concept you gave.
Where would Manziel fit on there? Not baiting you or anybody, but I really had reservations about BM, and I really disliked Kizer. So work JFF in there if you would. He was a mixed bag at best. I am assuming hindsight and it's all ok.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
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Coaching is being underrated within this thread. Anyone want to go back and look and see how many times coaching has been brought up in this thread? Guilty. ???
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Are you really trying to say Kizer was more ready than Baker? Ouch.
Correct. It is ensure and not sure. No need to correct an obvious typo, but thanks dude.
Also, it's "Mahomes." Not "Mahommes."
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