DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Baker Mayfield

That's what you're doing right now, as in "scolding" me??
I didn't say anything about what any minority should or shouldn't do, feel, or anything else. When I do, if I choose to, nothing you say or do in an internet forum... or face to face for that matter... will make a bit of difference in my opinion and won't move the needle so much as a tick in the matter you think you're fighting so valiantly for.

Quit being so full of yourself and your fight. Nearly everything you say comes off exactly as Rish says it does in his original post - and he actually put it kindly. If you think you're earning some brownie points in the eyes of those that matter, you're not, they're likely laughing at you.

I'd like to let you in on a little secret: no gesture is ever well-received.

Every single gesture that is or has ever been adopted as symbolic protest is always.... always met with backlash and controversy. Because it's not the gesture that's actually being criticized and rejected- it's the message.

Because of the very nature of protest, any gesture being used is going to be deemed unacceptable by someone, somewhere.

Don't kneel, I don't like it.
Don't turn your back, it's disrespectful
Don't raise your fist on the Olympic podium
Don't [insert random gesture here]...

There has always been another option here: people could have taken these players at their word: "We're doing this to call attention to this ONE SPECIFIC PROBLEM IN AMERICA."

So of course, people attach their own slants to something to make it fit the narrative that falls inside their comfort zone, and they run with it... instead of simply taking the players at their word. Now it's disrespecting the troops, crapping on the flag, literally anything but the players' original intent.

Because once again, people trying to send a message were not heard. Again. And again.

I have a sneaking suspicion that folks who require protest gestures to fit inside their comfort zones don't really believe in 1A protests at all. Because they'd much rather talk about the how than have an honest talk about the why.

Talking about what the players want to discuss is always an option. Even now, after their message was hijacked and weaponized against them. That message hasn't changed since the first knee touched the ground. What we've done is ignored them, bastardized their message into something we can easily attack.... and waste 2 years of time. Because look where we are now: protests and demonstrations in every corner of the world saying the same damned thing that knee did: Black Lives Matter.

Could have just listened to them in the first place.
What would have been so wrong about that?

Let's just not forget How this started.

Cops killing and injuring blacks. I assume sometimes it was called for and other not so much. Won't debate that.

But one player, Kap, made a statement. He knelt down during the anthem. He didn't do it to disrespect the flag or the anthem or the country. But that's how it was taken.

Then you had a candidate that made it a battle cry and a league that folded it's tent and abdicated their Responsibility (that they now seem to regret).

Myself, I'd find another way to protest, but I can't fault someone else for their methods.

I won't hate on Baker for his beliefs.

j/c

I want to address this entire "It creates a divide" narrative. People act as though that's something new when it comes to civil discourse. That somehow kneeling is different in that respect.

It's not. As Clem put most likely better than I can, the entire "divide" situation has been a constant every time blacks or any other group has fought for equal rights in our nation.

Gay rights have been fought against tooth and nail. The divide on the issue has created a divide based solely on religious grounds for the most part.

There was a huge divide over the women's suffrage movement. It took them fighting for nearly 100 years just to get the right to vote.

There was a huge divide over civil rights.

This time is no different. And if anyone cares to look at history, you will see that those trying to twist and obscure the actual message being sent by the players will in all likelihood land on the wrong side of history.

People have to actually talk in order for other people to listen. A silent gesture aimed at the flag leaves too much up to the interpretation of other people. Sure, some message was later attached to it, but the initial impression had already stuck with a large number of people. Unfortunately, as appears to be Rocket's issue, what people think they are saying and what the people they are saying it to are "hearing" often aren't the same. In the Twitter age we are terrible at communicating. We're good at generating buzz and selling products, but we're horrible at effecting change. Change requires conversations more than just shoving something in someone's face.

MLK wasn't effective because of the sound and the fury of his movement. He was effective because of his eloquence and message.

Rosa Parks wasn't effective just because she sat on a bus. She was effective because of the stories and messages that were attached to her action.

People seem to think that "getting on the bus" and screaming is effective protest.

Simple slogans and gestures are fine, but without a message that is more than stating the obvious (Black Lives Matter) what are other people supposed to do with it?

You talked about people not liking any gesture, but I think you have a rather limited sample. A closed fist? That's always been an aggressive symbol. "Please rise and stand" had long been a precursor to the national anthem, going against that tradition was bound to ruffle feathers. Turning your back has always been seen as disrespectful. Go figure, people don't like aggressive and disrespectful gestures.

You can find striking imagery without being confrontational.

We don't hug/fist bump someone from a different group, "we'd" rather throw rocks at cops.

We get in large groups and chant angrily. We don't sing arm in arm.

Protesters are allegedly trying to bring people together, but the message many people are hearing is that, if they aren't black, they don't matter.

The message being sent was everywhere to read and hear.

When people refuse to look, they refuse to learn. As a cop you should know that ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. I would think in your position you wouldn't try to use it as an excuse for anything else. But you just did.

Who cares? He is doing it to stay cool with his team mates. I myself don't care. The message, for me, went down the tubes when they started rioting and looting stores. Beating innocent people trying to protect their businesses is equal to what they are protesting.

Stealing TVs and Nikes does not prove your point, it is actually hurting your message.

Sunday night I was going to pull in a company lot in my truck, when I was confronted by a mob returning from protests in Columbus. They block the road to the shop and pummeled my truck with garbage and rocks. I was stopped at a red light. This was miles away from the protest site. So anybody who wants sympathy from me, better dream on. I was attacked for nothing.

So you're going to use the excuse that since a small percentage of the protestors looted, the entire message no longer holds any meaning. Well alrighty then.

It sounds like you did you get their message ... of hate. Remember that we (whites) are all quilty for the actions of one idiot cop, even if we do not condone it.

There can be no reconciliation when one party has set their minds to hate the other.

Shouldn't you say "both parties"? And if it were just "the actions of one idiot cop" I may be able to see your point. But this is a systemic problem that happens on the regular.

It would seem that the silent gesture did more to stimulate conversation than all the talking, shouting, weeping and curbside memorials ever did.

Case in point: you & I today.

Kaep's gesture wasn't aimed at the flag. That's what you fail to understand. His gesture occurred during the Natl Anthem because that was the moment of greatest coverage for his message. He tried telling us this from the start. I tried telling Dawgs at this address the same thing. So did Swish. So did Malcolm Jenkins and at least a dozen other players. Folks actively chose to listen to Donald J Trump's version of the message, instead of the folks sending the message.

As for this statement:



Apparently, it needed to be shoved into the face first, because only now are we talking. 180° out-of-phase, you were.



This is incorrect. It was always the message. CK waited to be asked, then he explained. This example is the very definition of the conversation you said didn't happen. 180° out-of-phase, again.



No, you can't. The gesture brings the confrontation. The reaction is the problem, not the message or the means.



The message seemed simple and obvious from the start for me: Cops are killing us on the streets. Your attempt to cloud this with debate rhetoric is too cute by half. Everyone has always known The Message. Some just hate the message and the messenger.


******************REVISIONIST HISTORY SECTION*****************



There was plenty of sound and fury in his his words. He was absolutely HATED during his time. His eloquence was met with the exact same resistance as Kep's 'silent' gesture



Rosa Parks had an entire civil rights organization at her back before she sat on that bus. Her gesture was a calculated tactic to start the conversation. Just like taking a knee.



Unfortunate that you got that particular message. These folks seem to have gotten a different memo. One that says, "We see you. We hear you. And we're behind you.":

People can only get a message if they listen to it. Drowning out and refusing to listen to a message is why some never receive it. Trying to twist and distort a message is a tactic used only to deceive.

Then they us that logic as a reason why others don't listen to it.

Makes me wonder what the “protest respectfully!” crowd would say about people wearing this.

It never stopped being wrong.

Mayfield isn't very bright...he doesn't need this distraction, he needs to focus on football..this year is his last chance and he will probably blow it...knucklehead...he should have just kept his mouth shut.

Baker is becoming a good ambassador for Browns football. The less I hear of his nonsense and the more stuff like this, the more I like the kid.

That is exactly what I'm saying. If it was an isolated incident I might think differently. But this was happening everywhere. What's a small percentage? Looked to me like a large group. Plus, if you want to play that game, what is the percentage of bad cops? This works both ways.

Maybe you should look at real stats instead of the media narrative.

Uhm, are you aware that you said the following in your original post?



and



and



and



and



Fate, you're arguing people need to stop kneeling this way because it does no good.

So once again, you're trying to tell black Americans how they need to protest because "it creates too much division and not the solution we need."

You have no authority to tell black Americans how to protest.

I am not trying to be abrasive or argumentative, but I really don't like when you bring this up. You've used that argument w/me and some others several times.

By your logic, a black person has no right or authority to tell white Americans to react to their protests or how to view minorities.

I disagree w/all of these takes. I see each person as a human. It doesn't matter if they are black and white. I judge them by their actions. Thus, when I talk to a black man..........I don't view him as a "black" man. I view him as a man.

I am adamant that furthering the divide does no good. I get that you talk to a couple of black guys in PMs, but Rocket, those guys do not represent "all" blacks. Hostile responses only alienate the very folks you are asking for help and/or understanding. I probably am not explaining that correctly, but tact can go a long way w/most people. You'll never convince some folks because they have hatred and bias in their hearts. However, I do not think it is wise to alienate the very people who are more open-minded and would actually like to help. Please don't tell them that they can't speak their mind.

We've come so far, don't let Vers take you away...

LOL

Just saying, you responded to yourself with this gif. You sent this to yourself (which is kinda hilarious).

Why don't you show me the "real stats"? And make sure you don't use a media source to show them to me. since, after all, you shouldn't use a media narrative, right?

I didn't "send" it to myself. I clicked on my previous post because Fate and Rocket were exchanging gifs from opposite sides and I was trying to say that we should try and get along.

Deleted.

I thought you used to trash me for questioning him. Now, you are calling him a punk and asking us to look at is history? LOL........that's a little extreme.

I don't approve of kneeling or protesting when you are working. It's a job. Not a political forum. However, I would be fine w/him protesting while he is not at work. Btw---that goes for all players. Not just Baker. I get that he is trying to support his teammates. I have no problem w/that.

I understand your feelings on the topic. However, no matter our feelings on it, the league, the players employer, have now given them okay to peacefully protest. I think it's the employer who should dictate if someone is having an issue with, "what they're doing at work".

As a consumer I guess you can choose whether to partake of their product or not. But since it's the league who gave them permission to do so, isn't that really who you should be having an issue with?

I don't really wish Baker's demise Versatile. I agree with your viewpoint 100%.

I also appreciate and respect bonefish's and PitDAWG's opinions.

The whole situation saddens me. I hate it for George Floyd and for the recent 2 incidents. I hate it for the country.

I wish there was another way to show social justice than kneeling at our flag.

Peace.

The league and several owners were okay w/it the first time. In fact, the Haslams released a statement about how they supported the players protesting.

Then, a funny thing happened. The ratings went down and the biggest reason [according to public polls] was the kneeling. The league did an about-face and discouraged kneeling.

Right now, popular opinion--or so it seems--is that protesting is good. Thus, the league is okay w/it. We'll see what they say once the games actually start and America voices their opinion by either watching or not watching.

You, and others, can support kneeling. I won't try to change your mind or call you names. I don't support it. I support protesting, but when I watch sports, I want to be entertained. I'm fully capable of reading and learning about our countries issues w/out millionaire athletes complaining about how bad things are in our country. That is my opinion and it won't change no matter who attacks it. You see, one of the great things about this country is that we are entitled to our very own opinions on things. I respect your opinion to support those who think this country is so bad. That is your right as an American. It is my right to have my own opinion on the sincerity of these acts.

When I see THE flag, my thoughts are of the soldiers who have paid the ultimate price in battle for our freedom, so I can't support the kneeling. I'm thinking the NFL just needs to do away with the players' presence during the playing of the national anthem. College doesn't do it. High schools don't do it that I'm aware of either.

Baker better not be spending time on practicing his kneeling, just his footwork on drop-backs.