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Are they really changing anything though?

Or are they just addressing symptoms, without addressing the root cause?

If white America is as racist as BLM claims, will just limiting the channels they have to express that racism change anything? Or will they just find other channels to express that racism?

You won't change anything without changing hearts and minds.

That why I find all this stuff about tearing down statues to be dumb....you aren't fixing anything! It just a way for the leaders of BLM to say "Look what we did!" and claim victory without actually fixing or changing anything.

Is change happening because of the tactics or in spite of the tactics?

I'd argue the latter, or at least irrespective of the tactics. Things so horrible happening have been exposed that a response was inevitable. No one (99+ % of people) wants horrible things to happen.

Are they even actually "tactics" being employed? Or is it more undirected (or at least minimally directed) anger and outrage being vented in many cases.

Lack of tactics and forethought lead to hastily fashioned responses that often end up leading to other problems.

No one has any thoughts on the locus of control angle? I know it's uncomfortable. Ignoring things doesn't make them go away unfortunately.

I do agree that their messaging could change more hearts and minds. I'm not sure how old you are and being older doesn't really mean anyone is smarter. It does mean we've observed things over time.

And what I will tell you are a couple of things that are most certainly factual. By any measurable far more people back this cause and message than at any other time in our nations history. So whie we agree that more hearts and minds could be changed, it certainly doesn't negate the fact that a far greater percentage of society have had their hearts and minds changed.

Secondly, not only by color, but by a wide range in age group, these protests are more diverse than at any other time in our nations history.

And we can banter back and forth in regards to symptoms all we like, but if you think we can actually tackle all of the systemic racism in our society on every level at the same time, i think history has taught us better than that. Right now, black people being murdered on our streets by law enforcement is the issue. Serious steps are being taken to start to correct that.

I've never heard of a health care professional advocate not addressing to help alleviate the symptoms of a disease until the cure is found. A lot of people can die from a disease if the symptoms aren't reduced until a cure is found.

Please tell me how the best bootstraps can overcome systemic racism in this country.

You know, that all sounds great an theory. Except until these "tactics" you speak of were employed, nothing was changing.

So you can label that any way you like. I label it effective.

And yes, anger fuels protest. At the point you have pushed people to the point they cab take no more, you will see action take place.

So it complacency was that fueled protest and society is perfectly fine with complacency until compelled to act.

But there is too much focus on the compelling part and not enough on the actions the compelling is supposed to bring about or the how, what, and why of those actions.

Clem often brings up music and the changes he sees it make in people's lives. I think that ties to locus of control. Music isn't just something that happens to them. It's something they gain a semblance of control in and it helps them become aware of there own agency. Or perhaps it allows them to have agency without being aware of it.

I think people's hearts have changed over time, but not really due to BLM. However, I think that just means there are much fewer actual racists in the US, something that BLM would like us to forget. People's minds though...not so much. Racial bias is still very prevalent in this country, something that all Clem's statistics point to. That won't change until the other factors change that create the bias.

And I agree about treating the symptoms (not sure if some of the "symptoms" are actually hurting anyone, but that is another discussion). I just don't want us, as a nation, to stop at treating the symptoms, which I fear is what is going to happen with this movement. Eventually, we need to treat the causes, and I haven't seen many concrete plans from BLM to address them. I guess we'll see what actually happens next.

I don't think we're that far apart in regards that the issues are far more reaching than what is being addressed at the time. However I don't think there can be "too much focus" placed on any of the issues.

What I will say is that the issue at hand is much more in the face of the public. Some will say it has become the focus, and I agree it has at this time. Because watching people killed on your television sort of grabs people's attention, don't you think?

This is not addressed to you bro.


I started this thread hoping we could all talk about our differences, and even more important how we can listen to our differences. IMO this thread started out well. Then as always around here it went down hill. I thank all of you who typed the truth about your feelings, and am dissapointed in those of you who just bashed the other side instead of discussing it.

I hope all of you in the future can keep an open mind and really, really listen to those who have a different opinion. Please keep speaking your minds, but also please try to listen to others who disagree with you or me.

It's not only "too much focus," it's frequently paired with denial of associated issues. You can't fix an issue by pretending parts of it don't exist. Putting figurative blinders on keeps things moving in the same old ruts. We need to take the blinders off and take a hard, long, uncomfortable look at all the linkages.

This part of your post I find very confusing. Let me ask you, does it make any difference how many "hearts and minds have changed" if actions have not been addressed to change anything? If policies still exist that allow atrocities to be committed on the streets of America, does it actually make any difference how many people think it's wrong?

And your comment on BLM. All I've seen is they promote those racist policies be changed. They have embraced those of different races and ages combining with them in their protests. They are not attacking those people for joining in with them. Actually I feel the opposite of what you assert is true. I think they are helping to expose the fact that most people agree with them and that it's the minority of people in this country who are controlling perpetuating these conditions and policies.



Yet we are seeing changes take place. Is it the be all, end all to the problem? No. But it has to start somewhere.



So you haven't witnessed people being killed by what's going on? You don't think that stopping the symptoms causing that are helpful? You don't think it's "actually hurting anyone" when we see people dying in front of our very faces?



BLM is addressing a single issue at this time. One that certainly needs to be addressed. There have been movements to address issues throughout the history of our nation. Women's suffrage didn't create equality for women. It did however give them the right to vote. The civil rights act in the 60's did not do away with racism, but it did expand the rights of black people.

As with everything in our country, there isn't a single movement that is going to fix everything. But movements have changed things one step at a time. Let's not pretend that fixing one issue at a time isn't important. History has taught us otherwise.

So you don't see stopping people being murdered by the police as something we should focus on. You think it's only one issue that's getting too much attention. You think if we can't fix everything at once we shouldn't focus on fixing anything.

Now I'm not saying that's what you believe but I will say that's certainly the way you come across.

Seriously? It's like you haven't read anything I've written. I don't even know how to respond to that. I probably have some culpability, but the "way I come across" to you possibly has as much to do with you as it does with me.

It's not that we shouldn't fix things, it's that we should actually fix things instead of playing make believe and pretending we can fix things while ignoring parts of them. Some things are connected. You can't build a castle in a swamp without draining the swamp. Sure, the castle is the thing we want, but if we only focus on it, it's going to keep sinking. It doesn't matter how great an idea the castle is, you have to have something solid to build it on.

Once again it seems you feel that if you can't fix everything at one time we shouldn't fix anything. Stopping people from being murdered by the police is fixing something.

Nobody is disagreeing that the problem doesn't run deeper than that. So I'm not quite sure what the point is you're trying to make here.

Yes, it matters! How is that even a logical response? Really? Did you know, beastiality is still legal in 11 states? You know why that isn't a problem? Because people already know it's wrong! People break laws and policies all the time that they don't agree with (see gun laws). Unless you change hearts AND minds, nothing will change. And that what I was getting at: hearts have changed - most people aren't racists. But most people, even black people, have racial bias. That is what I'm calling the mind, and that is what still needs changed. But it's very hard to change that without changing the facts that our mind sees.





You must have missed the whole Jussie Smollett faking a hate crime. There is a small but very vocal part of BLM that thinks all white people are racist. I think Eve brought up some guy telling all white people to kneel to him. You might say it disingenuous to based all BLM on just a few examples, but then I'd say the same thing about cops, so you can stop right there.



If you think I was talking about police brutality when I said "symptoms," you read that wrong. I was talking more about getting rid of Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, Mrs. Butterworth, etc.



I must have missed all the seperate movements that Asians did to eliminate racism for them in a little over 30 years.

So let me ask you, since BLM has shown through their protests that people of all ages and races agree with them, how did that help before the protests?

It didn't. It takes actions, not "thoughts and prayers" to change things.

And yes, you can bring up isolated incidents and even as you admitted "a small but very vocal part of BLM" to try and make a point. But that doesn't actually make a point. It shows that you wish to take a small and vocal part of something much larger to reach in order to label an entire group.

It's something we see in political debates all the time. I liken it to something I've said in the past.

"The fact that racist support Trump doesn't make Republicans as a whole racist. The problem is all racists support Trump."

At some point people should begin to look at the overall message and people delivering the message rather than look at the isolated incidents and vast minority of those within a group to try and make their point.

Where is this coming from?

I've never said to do nothing. I've frequently said that we clearly have to do something. Unfortunately, people seem to think that saying there is a problem is the same thing as actually fixing the problem. People are still dying. What's really being fixed? How? Oh, people are aware? Great. Racism was completely unheard of and no one knew it was a problem before the protests.

I see lots of noise and chaos. I see increased extremism cropping up. I see sides getting more entrenched.

I see very little meaningful progress. I see good intentions that are having detrimental effects. I see evidence of poor planning, and as the saying goes, " failing to plan is planning to fail."

It's like watching a train heading for a desirable destination, but a bridge is out in the middle of the journey. All the people on the train can think about is the destination. Yet, They're never going to get there unless the bridge gets fixed. For some reason, the people on the train feel compelled to focus on the end of the journey instead of what will need to be done to reach it in one piece.

......

I'd still like to get some feedback on the locus of control stuff. I kind of feel like this thread is running away in a not particularly productive direction, chewing up old ground.

Even as a Caucasian I find myself slipping into an external locus of control at times. There are lots of systems that seem insurmountable at times to me. I can hardly fathom how minorities must feel.

I feel like everyone could benefit from a greater awareness of the concept of loci of control and their psychological side effects.

So I guess you haven't seen how police regulations are being changed in cities all across America? How police are actually being charged with the crimes they are committing? Yeah, nothing is happening. Are you being for real right now?

The NFL, NASCAR along with businesses and city, state governments across this great nation are waking up and making changes to what's been going on.

And I agree that this thread is certainly running away.

I think the topic you wish to discuss would be better served with a person of color. They have lived the life you wish to discuss. They know what's going on first hand. Hopefully someone like Clem may be willing to discuss it with you. There is a point where discussions such as these go well beyond my personal expreriences.

Bro, you're so lost in the woods right now, you're making up arguments against things that literally no one is saying. Everyone here agrees change is needed; we are discussing what needs to change.

And like I already said, the argument that we shouldn't judge BLM based on their lowest common denominator falls flat when they are doing the same thing to cops.

I'm not the one who said that changing peoples hearts and minds was enough. That was you.

I said by holding protests it gave strength and power to those who had changed their minds. I pointed out that every major social change came about through protests.

You claim that BLM judges every cop the same. Yet there were hugs and cops kneeling with protestors and those protestors embraced them.

I think you have your mind made up and refuse to recognize many things a lot of us have actually seen.

Police were already supposed to treat everyone the same and try to avoid killing people. Police have been charged with crimes before. Is it really progress? Or just the illusion of progress? Time will tell.

You keep coming back to using "nothing." You're arguing a point I never tried to make.

I'm not sure if the NFL and NASCAR woke up or they're simply responding to the market. My initial gut instinct is that it's probably more for business reasons than ethical reasons despite what they'd like you to believe.

Did you read the article on loci of control? While the opinions of Clem and others would be appreciated, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts (and anyone else willing to thoughtfully consider it) on how the ideas expressed in the article may or may not contribute to "racism."

Your locus of control approach is what leads people to the "if you just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you can fix racism" type arguments.

In a world where the playing field was level, you'd have a point. The playing field remains unleveled and it'll take more than just thinking you have more control of a system stacked against you.

j/c...

Unreal, but not surprising.

That's absolutely disgusting.

What is? The CNN story or Trump retweeting a fake story or both? I'm not at all clear on what you find unsettling.

The fake story. I just wish he wouldn't tweet period. I'm getting tired of it.

So in your mind the system was as good as it needed to be before?

So in your mind the charging of police officers was sufficient and you don't want to look at the conviction rate?

By making these statements it appears as if you don't believe there has been progress made in these areas - and certainly with that first comment about police already being supposed to treat all equally - that either they do, or nothing can be done to look at the results and change requirements for the future?

Every comment seems like a "yeah but" ... and if that's not the point then you need to spell it out differently because I'm not the only one reading those comments the same way.

"Time will tell" - absolutely. With any plan, with any change, you need to monitor the results and see if it made a difference. Hopefully the Nation and it's media will keep it's focus on this for as long as necessary to impact change.

'Whitewashed and erased': There's a reason Juneteenth isn't taught in schools, educators say

https://www.yahoo.com/news/did-learn-juneteenth-school-many-210400496.html

A Connecticut fourth grade social studies textbook falsely claimed that slaves were treated just like “family.” A Texas geography textbook referred to enslaved Africans as “workers.” In Alabama, up until the 1970s, fourth graders learned in a textbook called "Know Alabama" that slave life on a plantation was "one of the happiest ways of life."

In contrast, historians and educators point out, many children in the U.S. education system are not taught about major Black historical events, such as the Tulsa Race Massacre or Juneteenth, the June 19 commemoration of the end of slavery in the United States.

As the country grapples with a racial reckoning following the killing of George Floyd in police custody, educators said that what has and what has not been taught in school have been part of erasing the history of systemic racism in America and the contributions of Black people and other minority groups.

“There’s a long legacy of institutional racism that is barely covered in the mainstream corporate curriculum,” said Jesse Hagopian, an ethnic studies teacher in Seattle and co-editor of the book “Teaching for Black Lives.”

“It’s really astounding how little the contributions of Black people are included in much of the mainstream curriculum and how much of that institutional racism is disguised,” he said.

Historians said curriculums are about identity and learning about ourselves and others.

“The curriculum was never designed to be anything other than white supremacist," Julian Hayter, a historian and an associate professor at the University of Richmond in Virginia, said, "and it has been very difficult to convince people that other versions of history are not only worth telling. They’re absolutely essential for us as a country to move closer to something that might reflect reconciliation but even more importantly, the truth."

LaGarrett King, an associate professor of social studies education at the University of Missouri, said the history curriculums in schools are meant to tell a story and, in the U.S., that has been one of a “progressive history of the country.”

“Really the overarching theme is, ‘Yes, we made mistakes, but we overcame because we are the United States of America,'” said King, who is also the founding director of the Carter Center for K-12 Black History Education at the university.

“What that has done is it has erased tons of history that would combat that progressive narrative,” he said.

King said the experiences and oppression of Black people, Latino people, indigenous people, Asian people and other minority groups in the U.S. are largely ignored or sidelined to fit those narratives.

“So, of course you’re not going to have crucial information such as what happened in Tulsa, you’re not going to have information such as the bombing of a Philadelphia black neighborhood,” he said.

In 1921 in Oklahoma, whites looted and destroyed Tulsa's Greenwood District, known for its affluent Black community. Historians believe that as many as 300 Black people were killed.

In May 1985, Philadelphia police dropped a bomb onto the compound of MOVE, a black liberation group, killing six members, five of their children and destroying 65 homes in the neighborhood.

Another often-omitted period of U.S. Black history is the Red Summer, a period of time through 1919 when white mobs incited a wave of anti-Black violence in dozens of cities.

As for the protests against racial inequality and police brutality after the killing of Floyd and other Black people at the hands of police, King emphasized that these movements were not new.

“Black people have been saying this for the past 400 years, this is not a new movement,” he said. “Each generation has had their point in time where they’re trying to say through protest, through rebellion, ‘listen to us, listen to us,’” he said.

Part of the problem is that society has never listened to that history, he said.

“In many ways we wouldn’t have a Black Lives Matter movement if Black lives mattered in the classroom,” he said.

The current moment has also put increased national attention on Juneteenth, which is Friday this year.

President Donald Trump said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal on Thursday that he moved a rally in Tulsa set for Friday to Saturday “out of respect” for two African American friends and supporters.

“I did something good. I made it famous. I made Juneteenth very famous. It’s actually an important event, it’s an important time. But nobody had heard of it,” he said, although his office has previously put out statements marking the occasion.

Historians note that Juneteenth has been celebrated in Black communities across the country for 155 years.

Hayter said that the history of Black people and other minority communities has already “been completely whitewashed and erased" when it is taught in American classrooms.

He pointed to the argument made by some that removing Confederate statues and iconography is tantamount to erasing history.

“So when people say you can’t erase history, it's like, what are you talking about?” he said. “If you crack open a textbook from the mid-20th century, there are no minorities in those textbooks.”

“The contributions they made to the American democratic experience are completely ignored,” he said.

Hayter said those histories have been seen as “a footnote to a larger narrative and not an important and integral portion of the history more largely.”

“As long as we continue to treat these as addendums to a larger American narrative, we’re failing these kids in large part because we’ve reduced these histories to second-class status,” he said.

Hagopian said “Teaching for Black Lives” seeks to uncover some of these really important periods of Black history and give educators access points to teach students about them, including a whole lesson on the Tulsa Race Massacre.

He said another historical period that was glaringly absent from the mainstream curriculum was Reconstruction, the era following the Civil War that sought to address the inequalities of slavery.

“Reconstruction is one of the most fascinating and revolutionary periods in American history,” he said.

Hagopian said it was a remarkable period of time, although short, when the country undertook a conscious effort to tear down institutionally racist structures.

“Black people built the public school system across the South, and there were integrated schools in the 1860s. They were more integrated than today, just incredible examples of Black empowerment,” he said, adding that there were more Black elected officials than at anytime until recently.

“It’s such an important era to examine," Hagopian said. "If we’re going to escape the intense level of racism that we have today, we’re going to need to look at what it looked like when there was a movement toward institutional anti-racism."

It is also important, Hagopian said, to teach students that the civil rights movement went beyond a few famous figures commonly featured in history books or during Black History Month, such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks.

“I think one of the most important things for students to learn about is the way young people have helped shape American history in profound ways and to help understand the contributions especially of Black youth to this nation,” he said.

“They’re so often erased, but when students learn that it was young people who were the leaders of the civil rights movement, they can then see themselves as potential actors to transform the world today."

I actually find it funny that the cnn fake is actually believable. That's what makes it a good spoof.

Thanks for sharing Swish. I learned something new.

In other news:



All this race nonsense has crime going nuts. If you can't tell a woman pushed a 74 year old crippled man out of a bus and killed him ....has society really stooped "this" low?

Or how about this doozy?



Attacking a 92 year old woman ? You kidding me!?

Race aside. This is straight up dishonorable.

Society is fundamentally broken when we have people attacking the elderly and senior citizens. Even the Mafia and Organized Crime had honor...women, children, and old men/women were off limits, they would kill you for breaking those rules.. when is enough enough?

Only if you are a loyal Trump supporter who has bought into his lies about the Media being the enemy of the people...

Even if I wanted to, it's hard to argue with anything in that article.

Thanks for posting.

If the playing field was level? Isn't that the same as saying, if only life was fair? I've told my kids since they were little, "life isn't fair".

I don't think I had a single school year where there wasn't at least 1 black kid in my class. That means we all had the opportunity for the same education. That appears to be a level playing field.

By the time I was in high school, there were complaints about the curriculum being 'by whites, for whites'. The curriculum started changing to be more inclusive, I guess. Personally, I thought standards were lowered. Just like the Bell curve was supposed to make grading more equal.

By the time I was a senior, there were a small percentage of blacks, mostly male, that had given up on learning or doing schoolwork. Some were biding their time for graduation. Some of them went to vo-tech, some didn't. There was a clique of female blacks that were more interested in their educations. I also saw these attitudes, with the exception of the refusal to learn amongst white males, but they would mostly drop out. Still seems opportunity is fairly level.

By my college years, I realized that scholarships were more biased for blacks. A black male with a similar financial backround was more elegible for those scholarships, and had more to choose from. For the first time, the playing field isn't level, and not in my favor.

Now don't get me wrong. I didn't finish college due to funds and lack of desire. My dad didn't want to pay for me to major in astrophysics, and when I started working I didn't have the desire to work and go to school part time. I was enjoying the money I was making.

I eventually went to work for an 8A government contractor. Again, an unleveled playing field. The owner was of Hispanic decent, and grew up in a much more afluent family than I did. He got special consideration for government contracts, because he was technically a minority.

Now, I work for a legal immigrant, who works for a black man, who works for a black man. They are all within 10 years of my age. I assume they've all taken advantage of their opportunities, because all of my superiors are very good at their respective positions. Once again, it seems to me that level playing field of opportunity has been maintained.

My little story is based on my first hand observations and memories. I never went to an inner city school, or even lived in a big city. I did see equal opportunity, but there will never be equal outcomes. Once again, level playing field.

Now as to my previous statement, life is not fair. There are smart, stupid, and average people. There are pretty, ugly, and average people. There are athletic, disabled, and average people. Everyone tends to have their talents, but the hard part is realizing them. Not allowing yourself to be pigeonholed into a predetermined stereotype is probably your best route to those equal opportunities. Add to that the realization that one might have to work harder than others to overcome the circumstances of one's birth.

Your perspective in this post explains a lot. It's a popular opinion and perspective. And it's based on faulty thinking. Thanks for sharing.

You mean like Russian collusion? There was almost 3 years of that lie broadcast daily on liberal news channels.

Yeah, there's a difference between, "Life's not fair" and "Let's purposefully make sure life's not fair".

Things are definitely not a level playing field.

And while life might not be "fair" ... it's a lot more unfair for one segment of society than others. FACTS verify that.

Blindness to this fact, and insistence that it's merely up to the individual in the middle of a pretty deep discussion on racism .... is really bizarre at best and willfully antagonistic at worst.