DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Trump And Pence Ditch The Racist Dog Whistle For The Nazi Kazoo: Uses Nazi Iconography In Campaign Ad

Then there are obvious lessons we many of us has seen, witnessed ans history points out to work that some just can't seem to accept.

Tasers can be deadly to people with no health issues. Sudden Cardiac Arrest and Death Followin...rol Device Link

That's a link to a journal article from the American Heart Association.

Just providing information.

That was a dig (in jest) after your post the other day where you were extolling your extra sensory perception and smarts.

Yes, they have worked so well to bring about equality that we're all equal now.

You've been told that protests work so many times that you believe it. That doesn't make it objectively true. It appears they more often end up in creating hostile environments.

If they worked so well, why do you have to keep doing them to bring about effectively the same thing? (equality)

Because progress has been brought about one step at a time.

You somehow think people base their beliefs on "what they've been told" and not "what they've seen". You somehow think the things that transpired to help bring about social changes are a mirage and not factual. That's a you problem.

I wasn't extolling. I tried to be as clearly deprecating as possible while presenting a quantifiable fact. It's not something I regular broadcast because responses like yours are all too common. I decided to show some vulnerability in the hope it might help the message to reach someone.

The extra sensory idea is only in your head. There are people that are smarter than you, you need to grow up and learn to deal with it without getting defensive.

Blah, this isn't helping anything, but it is another example of emotions derailing things.

What they've been told influences how they see.

Your grasp of causation appears to be so rudimentary that it is more of a hindrance than a help. People used to think that the only reason the sun came up in the morning is because they prayed the night before or because human sacrifices were made. "I was praying for the sun to come up and it did, it worked!" People see connections that aren't necessarily there.

I'm just wondering if you use a magnifying glass when you go grasping for straws? So it wasn't the Russians bringing missiles into Cuba that caused Kennedy to blockade Cuba?

Ignoring that causation isn't a real thing doesn't dictate reality.

I have no idea what you are trying to say or how it could possibly relate to anything relevant.

Since you brought up the Cuban Missile Crisis, here are some articles that do seem relevant:

Did Kennedy Cause the Crisis? Link

The Real Cuban Missile Crisis- Link

So then causation is something you decide whether it's relevant on a case by case basis? It was The Cuban Missile Crisis.

You see, actions create other actions. It's not some novel idea. It's actually basic math. For each and every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Civil discourse has been the biggest motivating factor in social change in this country. Those of us who have lived through and experienced this know and understand it. Others not so much.

If by your own admission, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, then one must ask the question, what was the action that caused the soviets to want to place missiles in Cuba... right?

Or did they just want to put them there because they are bad people?

I'm so confused right now.

I was the one saying we should use civil discourse. You're completely changing your argument. Surely you can't be implying that protest, unrest, and civil discourse are the same things?

Causation is always relevant when looking at the thing that was caused. However, it's not always easy to pinpoint the cause(s).

Also, Newton's third law of motion is usually placed in physics and physical laws rather than math. I don't think it really applies to politics.

They are not the same thing but there are times when all of them are necessary. Usually unrest leads to protests leads to civil discourse... because a lot of people aren't willing to participate in civil discourse until they are forced to.


Not the "equal and opposite" part but in politics very little happens spontaneously or in a vacuum... most things are in response to something else. The general law of cause and effect still applies.... usually.

If you're forced to participate is it really civil?

In "politics" it definitely seems like every action leads to escalation. ...and then you end up with Trump as president. I'm not sure I want to know how one would escalate from that.

Kind of into semantics now but yes.. eventually you realize that civil discourse should have been had all along.. so you aren't really forced to participate as much as you are forced to acknowledge your neglect of the subject..


Would be nice if this was the end and we actually got to the civil discourse part.... though I'm not betting on it.

The same prankster keeps sneaking up behind you and kicking you in the ass. But if you turn around and punch him out a few times, he will stop. It's a behavioral adjustment and the punch in the nose is the attention getter, just like the protests.

You can't go along with what you bully wants you to do and be, then expect him to stop being your bully. Black people and their supporters need to press this point until laws and hearts change, period. They've stopped short far too many times now in the name of peacefulness, getting along, and coming together.

If this were a singular bully, that logic would work. It's not that simple.

edit 1:Now it's more punch everyone in the face regardless of whether they are a bully, and then wonder why some of them think you are violent.

edit 2: Even that is a gross oversimplification. It just seems that the we need to act to get change mentality often coincides with a "punch" first, ask questions later mentality.

I think a mentality of think, then act, then think some more, then adapt the action, then think some more, rinse and repeat would work better than the swing first and keep swinging that things frequently devolve into as is.

yes, its multiple bullies.

which is why the movement exist.

He doesn't get it and never will. Then somehow believes it's everyone else that doesn't get it.

You can show him the history. Show him that nothing was done on many social issues until the people rose up.

He just keeps twisting it and pretends like none of it happened. You're wasting your time.

it was worth a shot.

ive been paying attention to your convo with Bull and his comments overall in these threads, and im just confused as to how so much factual information seems to get ignored because of his own viewpoint rarely backed up by anything.

im trying my hardest to understand where dude is coming from but.....eh.

When "you" see a flower, you may think that it's a pretty flower.

When I see a flower, I acknowledge the flower, but then I think about how the shade progresses throughout the day at that location that allows it to grow the way it did. I consider the soil composition and think about how much moisture (rain and humidity) there has been recently. There may be some bite marks on some of the petals, so I wonder what's been eating it. From there, I wonder if the critter is indigenous to the ecosystem. And on, and on.

Some people are content thinking about a thing itself. I get bored with that and think about all the things that are connected to the thing, and there are always more things that are connected to the initial thing than are readily apparent.

Some people see things as simple, "obvious", etc. I see no simple things, but things with different orders of complexity. I'm not trying to make a value judgment on the different perspectives, just juxtaposing the differences.

We think differently. *shrug*

What you actually do is just gaslight people in the politest way possible, Bull.

People provide you with facts, real world examples, anecdotal stories of their experience, etc. and you constantly tell them "well, no. This doesn't fit the long arduous process I use to form an opinion." Then you typically explain "honestly, you're wrong because in my mind you create more division. We need to be nicer to racist idiots."

Incase if you're unfamiliar with the term:

Link

You question the reality people present regardless of the factual information they present.

its funny you used a metaphor like that when the evidence says you loving judging books by its cover.

Pit and other people have acknowledge and even go into deep detail about specific topics, but what you and him have been talking about has actually been very simple concepts to grasp, yet keeps flying over your head.

for example, look at this post of yours:



this line specifically: If you're forced to participate is it really civil?

^^^^ really highlighted how unaware you seem to be, how movements are created and dissolved, and how actions of a group can lead to progress - or digression - within a state or country.

those concepts and ideas should be simple to grasp. those concepts and ideas should be obvious to most, if not all.

No rain, no flower. It's a concept you seem to understand on one level but not so much on another level.

So you overthink crap to the point of inaction or inadequate action. Gotcha. Paralysis by analysis... You wouldn't happen to be an engineer would you?

You think I want you to question your reality, so that I have more power?

I want you to question your version of reality, so that you have more power.

People don't question things enough.

People focus on a particular part of the story (or "fact" as they seem to use interchangeably), and act like it's the entire story. There is always more to every story.

Then they come up with/use ideas they only partially understand so they never have to question anything. An avoidance of questions inevitably leads to ignorance in the areas they refuse to examine.

I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm trying to get people to thoughtfully consider what they believe. Consider that there may be more complexity than you've been led to/come to believe.

People use real world examples that illustrate the opposite of what they are trying to relate like Pit's repeated reference to the Cuban Missile Crisis. "Kennedy blockaded because the Russians were bringing missiles, Kennedy blockaded because the Russians were bringing missiles...Kennedy blockaded...." The Russians brought missiles because Castro asked for them because the CIA was trying to kill him with Kennedy's approval. I've posted links to that elsewhere.

I've never said you have to be nicer to racist idiots. I've said perhaps you should stop treating people indiscriminately like they are racist idiots and consider that there might be a better way to effect the change you want to see, if not in those words.

Instead of considering that maybe there could be a better way, "you" seem intent on picking fights and insisting that it is impossible that there could be a better way.

Instead of immediately sending back a defensive retort, could you take a day or two to think about? Read what I've said a few times? Try to take the emotion out of it?

I never claimed anyone was "evil or bad people". The Bay of Pigs is what in my opinion caused Russia to place missiles in Cuba. Would you like to keep playing games like, "And why did the Bay of Pigs happen"?

You did however enforce the point I was making. Thanks.

Finally something we agree on.

Eww boy ..blind in one eye and can’t see out of the other. Moving on.

You're a politician aren't you?

My statement was referring to the incongruity of the definitions:

force: make (someone) do something against their will.
civil: courteous and polite
(definitions per Google)

It was kind of tongue in cheek word play. Maybe I should have put it in purple.

You seem to have taken something completely different from it than the statement's intention.

I was in no way trying to say there was something wrong with movements, or any any way referencing methods of their creation.

It was a half-hearted joke directed at his word choice.

Invalidating

Source

Raised by one, and thus, definitely not one now.

I can actually do things and keep thinking. I can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, too.

I can be doing something, be told new information, think about it and adapt on the fly if it makes sense. It does have to make sense, though.

You're allowed to have them. They aren't wrong. You will undoubtedly feel something.

However, they don't help rational thought. I was asking you to wait for them to pass before responding, which you didn't do.

I'd never make it as a politician. People seem to prefer voting for idiots (i.e, Trump.)

I think the reality is subjective and you have a personal bias baked into your opinion.

Bull, it doesn't take me long to process most things. If we're talking Calculus...well that's an arduous process for another lifetime.

For you to tell me "take some more time to think" is incredibly dismissive without any sort of factual basis to back your pseudo-parental attitude. It makes me think "huh, apparently my thoughts don't matter and that if I only thought longer by some arbitrary measure that people will listen."

Your main argument across threads has been "this isn't authentics, BLM is doing it wrong, and we can't call people out even if the definition fits because it sows division." If someone is using Nazi iconography, you call it what it is. If someone is endorsing views of racists, you call it for what it is.

Minority groups don't have time to waste for the majority to not be offended. Step out of the way and let minority groups lead.

I wonder if you would be telling MLK Jr, Gandhi, Elizabeth Jean Peratrovich, Rose Parks, or anyone else their methods aren't worth it as they sowed this "division" you keep preaching about.

I guess Trump could be a super genius posing as an idiot.

Hey, here you go again trying to point out how smart you are again.

I was speaking in terms of the qualifier you mentioned. ie the type of people voters elect. Sometimes people overvalue their self worth.