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I've been waiting to hear the usual our D line sucks remarks ( I usually make them) but can't seem to find them. The reason I have been waiting is because for probably close to 75% of the plays we did not have 3 D lineman in the game.
For most of the game we only had two, and on many plays only one. I saw a bunch of lineups that had Peek, McGinnest, Davis and Wimbley all with a hand down. This happened when we had Williams and DQ in the game as well.
Another observation I made is that S. Smith didn't line up over the center for at least 3 quarters. Kelley played nose when we had a three man front with R. Smith and Roye played over center with two lineman in.
I want to know what you guys think this means. I have my own opinions but want to see what others think. I did not put this in the looking back forum because I would like to compare what happened last week to what we will see Sunday.
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Good post. I have been contemplating the same thing.
No time to get into a long response but it does say two main things to me:
1. We are really suffering from a talent deficiency on the defensive line.
2. We at least recognize this fault and are being creative in trying to solve the issue.
The only other thing I'll add is that we've seen plenty of McGinest at LDE and Wimbley on that side as a rushing OLB for the past two games in this "floating 3-4" (my term for it) with little success.
More to come later.
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Thats what I see too. And i think give it time we'll see an improvement. And HOPEFULLY especially after our bye week we see even more improvement. I hope i hope i hope.
I like the new look D. I wonder why we didnt move around more against NE like we did against Baltimore. I know Brady is better than McNair, but, I kinda just expected more pre-snap movement from the D.
I think the new look D is better because we're really confusing QBs. Brady had all day to throw, but the fact that he took all day to throw says something to me.
I think its better. We kept the RB out of the endzone, but i just wish we could keep em under 100 yards rushing.
I see Ronnie Brown getting 100, but after that. I hope to see Jackson (or Leonard) under 100, Alexander, Parker, and McGahee under 100, because theyve all been struggling this year. McGahee beng the most steady.
I also hope to see us force a few more mistakes from the opposing offenses.
In all, I like the new look, because its helping make up for our deficiency of talent. I just wish the new look D would involve Purcell and Pittman. We need young, quick bodies and thats what these guys are.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I think that it was sad. We tried to play a 4-3 defense with a base 3-4 and we got blown off the ball every time.
We need DL BADLY!!!
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I want to look at some of that other stuff still because, like you, I was intrigued by the fronts.
On the subject of Shawn Smith not playing nose, I think what the reason for that is because he never really got to work at nose. In training camp he had to immediately step in and play in Roye's spot.
I dunno.
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I've always wanted McGinnest as a DE.. I do it on Madden ALL the time...  He's too slow to play LB..
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Unless we draft a low round starter for nose tackle, I see Shaun Smith as our starter there next year. JMHO
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I guess they figured since we weren't stopping the run with the 'fatties" in the game, we might as well put more guys on the field who can chase after the runner and possibly apply more pass pressure(though that hasn't happend as of this point)
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
I want to look at some of that other stuff still because, like you, I was intrigued by the fronts.
I wasn't intrigued at all...I was repulsed. Morg and I were in the chatroom talking about how bad it didn't work. We had absolutely no pressure because the two tackles we had in the middle got absolutely no push and we already know guys like Peek and Wimbley can't survive all that well in a 4-3 when they put their hands down.
When we used it there wasn't even a pocket. It's was just a straight line.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I've been waiting to hear the usual our D line sucks remarks They suck.. They blow.. They tread mud... They're weak...  I saw a bunch of lineups that had Peek, McGinnest, Davis and Wimbley all with a hand down. This happened when we had Williams and DQ in the game as well.
That is really what Rac would like to do if he had the talent..but it's realy in our case a scheme to compensate for poor pass rush and horrible run defense. I said this in the How do we fix this defense thread, they need to give some looks where they imploy 5 LB's...create confusion. Another observation I made is that S. Smith didn't line up over the center for at least 3 quarters. Kelley played nose when we had a three man front with R. Smith and Roye played over center with two lineman in.
Heres what I said in weeks ago: The interior Dline are not very athletic. Roye is the best of the bunch, but he's getting oldish and isn't a speed guy anyway.
R. Smith is solid, but he and Roye aren't going to cover much ground.
Obviously S. Smith isn't either, and Ted is a huge liability. So....they need the LBs to make plays.
I'd stunt, angle, and pinch these big guys as much as possible to create havoc, along with run blitzing the LBs frequently.
We seem to be jumping into a 4-2-5 nickel look in passing situations with Wimbley and Peek at DE, and Simon Frasier/Robaire Smith/Orpheus Roye manning the weak side A and strong side B gaps. I don't like it.
I'd rather go to more of a true 3-4 look and play an odd front. This means a NT over the center, guys over the tackles, and an OLB/rush LB sometimes called an elephant standing up and bringing it. Better yet, a 3-3 look with only one true DL at NT, rushing one or two LBs every play.
My wrinkle would be to put Wimbley and Thompson over the OTs, with Peek at the elephant position. Acnhor the line with Roye at the NT position, and let him attack. For a stronger front, PUT R. Smith or even McGinest (when he comes back) at one DE spot over a tackle and rotate an OLB out.
Having multiple OLBs rushing allows you to zone blitz, and bring Dra/Leon/DQ and drop the OLB into coverage.
Sometimes a 34 is run like that..
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Quote:
I've been waiting to hear the usual our D line sucks remarks ( I usually make them) but can't seem to find them.
I've posted at least 3 times in the last 3 weeks about how our DL sucks major ass.
We need a line, and we need 2 LBers.
We should be set on the O side of the ball going into next year (yes, the Cleveland mantra of "next year") but we need some dire help on the D side of the ball. A great stride was made this week when the fat ass Ted Washington was made inactive...give me some 1st day draft and a FA or two in these areas and we can kick some ass. This will free up Wimbley and DQ to do what they can do.....
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Most of the D-line could have been inactive last week, since three of our linebackers lined up on the line with one lone D-lineman for much of the second half of the game.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Just clicking...
What is the difference between the Browns defensive line and other teams defensive lines?
Answer: speed and athleticism
The Browns D-linemen are slow and easy to block as they lack the speed and athletic ability to do much more than bull rush or slant.
It's easy to identify the problem but seems to much harder for our defensive coaches to make the necessary changes.
Last edited by mac; 10/11/07 12:17 PM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Quote:
Most of the D-line could have been inactive last week, since three of our linebackers lined up on the line with one lone D-lineman for much of the second half of the game.
It didnt look pretty but it was effective, wasnt it? The Pats scored 7 off.points in the 2nd half...was that the main difference between 1st and 2nd half D?
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I credit Romeo with recognizing the lack of talent on the D-line and making adjustments. It may not look the best and we may five up some yards, but if it prevents scoring it worked.
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Don't look for the LB'ers to be lined up on the D-line this week. That was a one week experiment against NE, and from what I hear you won't see it again this week.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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With NE they ran more of a spread offense. so TED is inmobile and hardly creates havoc...this week they'll probably have him in there..but what they need to do is work LL the new guy in there..he couldn't be any worse than Ted is..
I would still like to see Shaun Smith get reps at NT.and put Kelly who is weak. at DE..
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The Browns last week tried to imitate some of the old Pats looks from 2003 and 2004. So that meant maybe two DT's covering the OG's, an ILB in the gap over center, and some other odd allignments with the LB's. I was not a fan, but it looked like they were trying to pressure the interior of the Pats OL, who aren't as good of pass protectors as the tackles.
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Quote:
Just clicking...
What is the difference between the Browns defensive line and other teams defensive lines?
Answer: speed and athleticism
The Browns D-linemen are slow and easy to block as they lack the speed and athletic ability to do much more than bull rush or slant.
It's easy to identify the problem but seems to much harder for our defensive coaches to make the necessary changes.
i dissagree, in a 3-4 typically you want 3 guys that need doubleteamed to free up the linebackers, a young ted washington was never fast, but he could push 1 guy all over the field. now the LBs arent staying clean, that is the problem. Ask arguably the best middle linebacker in the league in Ray lewis who has commented plenty of times that he looks good because the men in front of him are tying up the blockers.
why do we need 2 LB's? imo wimbley, jackson and davis are plenty good. migginest is servicable and makes some plays but i think this is the end of the line for him. and i'm not sold on peak. . . .
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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I think that Heldawg pretty much summed it up in 2 sentences. Quote:
1. We are really suffering from a talent deficiency on the defensive line.
2. We at least recognize this fault and are being creative in trying to solve the issue.
Solve may be too strong a word though...perhaps 'combat' the issue.
At least they're TRYING something.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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I was at the game yesterday...and the defense is pretty depressing. With an even moderately successful defense we'd have blown them out. My question is how much do we need to turn it around? Optimistically I'd like to think that we could improve things with 2 or 3 new D line and a DB or two, but I'm not sure. Eric Wright seems to have serious issues in covering guys, but hopefully that's because he's a rookie. But our D-line gets constantly blown right off the line. I'd have thought we'd do better but even our "good" DB's are not playing as well as I expected.
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The Browns last week tried to imitate some of the old Pats looks from 2003 and 2004. So that meant maybe two DT's covering the OG's, an ILB in the gap over center, and some other odd allignments with the LB's. I was not a fan, but it looked like they were trying to pressure the interior of the Pats OL, who aren't as good of pass protectors as the tackles. More of the same this week..in fact I saw McGinest line up over center several times...and once he got through.. But now it's really annoying me..I saw too many times Brown bounced off defenders or broke tackles..I don't care how powerful he is, we aren't hitting with force and U don't have to have super talent to hit hard.  Savage is going to have to do something in the offseason..at least 75% of his attention should be on upgrading all three units..Dline/LB/DB's... Once I saw Robaire Smith in a contain alignment actually go INSIDE  the block of the OT on a run to the Fins' left side. Wimbley was walked off against 2 or 3 WRs, and we had no contain at all. Smith should be pistol-whipped for that. It's time to get a stud NT/MLB...
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/15/07 09:03 AM.
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This defense needs several players to be good.
For starters, we need three defensive linemen. We MUST have a real nose tackle. We have guys that can be solid as rotational players, but there isn't a true starter on this line.
At the linebacker position, Davis is being exposed (Hell, he's been exposed for years) for what he is, and peek is a rusher, not a run stopper. Jackson MUST have defensive linemen to take blockers off of him because he's just too small to do it by himself.
Our corners are actually fine. We have to let our rookie take his lumps (remember, he only started a handful of college games) and Bodden is good. Holly as a nickel is excellent. Our safeties are exposed because every single QB has a pocket about 3 yards around him to sit back and throw.
I believe we need at least 5 new players just in the defensive box to become good. Remember, it took Edwards, Winslow, Thomas, Steinbach, Fraley, Jurevicius, and a QB to make our offense good. Our defense is as bad as our expansion offense was, and that's saying alot.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I have to agree, there will be a few new faces on defence next season, mostly on the DL & LB side Quote:
75 Fraser, Simon DL 6-6 300 03/27/1983 3 Ohio State Good back-up
78 Kelley, Ethan DL 6-2 338 02/12/1980 3 Baylor ?
93 Leonard, Louis DL 6-4 330 07/16/1984 R Fresno State ?
99 Roye, Orpheus DL 6-4 330 01/21/1973 12 Florida State Time to retire
98 Smith, Robaire DL 6-4 320 11/15/1977 8 Michigan St. Will Return
91 Smith, Shaun DL 6-2 325 08/19/1981 4 South Carolina Will Return
92 Washington, Ted DL 6-5 375 04/13/1968 17 Louisville Past Time to retire
2 spots will need replaced due to retirments,
2-3 might be replaced due to upgrading in talent.
Possible 3-5 New FA or Draftees will be on our line next year,
Quote:
54 Davis, Andra LB 6-1 250 12/23/1978 6 Florida Possible last year
53 Griffin, Kris LB 6-3 245 05/27/1981 3 Indiana (Pa.) Back-up
58 Jackson, D'Qwell LB 6-0 240 09/26/1983 2 Maryland starter
55 McGinest, Willie LB 6-5 270 12/11/1971 14 Southern California Retire
90 McMillan, David LB 6-3 250 09/20/1981 3 Kansas ?
56 Peek, Antwan LB 6-3 255 10/29/1979 5 Cincinnati Starter
51 Thompson, Chaun LB 6-2 255 05/22/1980 5 West Texas A&M ?
94 Williams, Leon LB 6-2 250 07/30/1983 2 Miami (Fla.) Starter
95 Wimbley, Kamerion LB 6-3 260 10/13/1983 2 Florida State Starter
Solid at LB but Andra might be past his peak and could still hold some trade value for us leon could step in and we wont miss a beat,
These guys will only be as good as our line is.....
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In my opinion, Williams is living off last years reputation. He's been badly out of position in the passing game, and isn't as stout as Davis is against the run ( and he's not stout at all).
We need help!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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This is a good week to discuss this.. First we need to see Shaun Smith play NT..I know he didn't get the reps due to Roye's knee but his set is NT... Louis Leonard the kid we just brought in..is a big body but he hasn't shown with his other teams he's worth anything.. The real problem seems to be our ends get sealed ...I saw R.Smith go inside and that allowed the tackle to block down..Wimbley sometimes overpursues and gets caught leaving DQ exposed to take on a big blocker... So we need one hulking NT and a DE can actually stuff the run.. My theory has always been to get another big DT in there at DE..One who can actually shoot through gaps thus MAKING two linemen block him..  On to the backers..get rid of em all except DQ.. Mourg knows...I wanted Dumervile or Tapp in the draft to go inside..we need a PHYSICAL player at MLB and one who has INSTINCTS! Andre Davis is showing what he has ..nothing..yet some still luv him  McMillian needs to go , he hasn't shown anything..McGinest while he needs to retire, he need to show these guys how not to overpursue..
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No problems with you comments , except ( you knew there had to be one ) .. DQ.... . I said he was a reach as a second round draft pick , I still say it .( in a three/four ) He ain't big enough .. You put in a real NT. and a couple of decent LB's in the middle and the whole " D " will look better .. you build inside /out ..
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Quote:
Andre Davis is showing what he has ..nothing..yet some still luv him
Can't say I "love him".. but I respect him for his effort. He was the best player on a bad defense for a long time and he came to play every day. He has represented the Browns pretty well... but with that said, if an upgrade is out there that will make this defense better, then that's just the way it is...
yebat' Putin
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Anybody think we might look to the FA market during the bye week to get some defensive line help in here? There seems to be a few guy's left out there. Don't know if anyone is worth a look but we really need to shore up this line quick if we are going to make a playoff push. http://browns.scout.com/a.z?s=149&p=...c=16&pid=22
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1. That list is not current, look no further than Michael Myers & Ethan Kelley on there.
2. There isn't squat left on there that would help us.
3. We just signed a guy a couple of days ago.
4. The chances of *ever* finding someone this late in the game that will actually be of value in a non-emergency fill-in role is pretty much nil, all of the true talent that is still capable of lacing em up is signed loooong before this.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I know the draft will be about BPA......but you can bet if there are any "ties", the tiebreaker will be if the player is a defensive player.
I also think FA will be all about defense since that is where you really address 'needs"..
We are going to throw some serious cash at box players next year.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I dont think its the players. I really dont. I see some horrible horrible decisions being made by the DC. We got a huge lead against Miami and instead of cranking up the heat on the unproven QB making his 2nd NFL start we went into one of the softest zones i have seen. Now if Romeo is the defensive guru, he has to see this. Fire Grantham now and take over the defense. Seriously if you cant do a better job than this you shouldnt have a job.
This team is being led into bad habits. They lack aggression and discipline and the zone coverages they are playing are just absurd its the stuff Butch did against Pitt. Romeo take charge and show me you are more than Chud's O.
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Quote:
On to the backers..get rid of em all except DQ..
Mourg knows...I wanted Dumervile or Tapp in the draft to go inside..we need a PHYSICAL player at MLB and one who has INSTINCTS!
You wanted Tapp or Dumervil to move to MLB? Are you serious? I admittedly was high on Tapp, but only as a situational OLB pass rusher. What makes you think either would be successful?
Tapp is 270 lb, and Dumervil is 260 lb, they'd both have to lose weight AND learn how to cover RBs and TEs. You're taking away both of their best attributes (pass rushing ability) and asking them to cover more.
Last edited by Nemy10Dawg; 10/15/07 08:34 PM.
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Can't say I "love him".. but I respect him for his effort. He was the best player on a bad defense for a long time I wouldn't say the best player..he was better than the other MLB's we had but not by much..if you closely watched him..he 'd have one good game and disappear the next..he rarely fills a hole early and most often takes the wrong angle to a back thus getting blocked away from the play... He's a part of the problem..he doesn't have to be flashy but he does have to make plays and he's not doing it. Nemy10Dawg
You wanted Tapp or Dumervil to move to MLB? First of all, they are both big enough to play that WILB spot..I watched both closely in their games..Tapp played the run a lot better playing DE than most OLB's did.. If you look at it he's not not much bigger than most ILB's and seems to be more mobile..same with Dumervil... Since they have pass rush abilities thats a plus, Dumervil actually plays a bit of OLB with Denver, I watched their scheme with him in there so its not farfetched.. A bigger body inside who can play the run, put pressure on the QB and drop down in zone coverage wouldn't be that difficult to do, since I've seen both do it in their college days.. Wimbley is learning to do that and he hardly ever had to do that at FSU...so why not complain about him?  U see I had them on my draft list but not Wimbley as I thought we were taking Ngata.. Jackson was not on my list either although I felt the Browns liked his instincts..and against the run with the way our line and Wimbley are getting blocked down DQ's small body can't shed those blocks from huge linemen.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/16/07 08:41 AM.
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Quote:
I dont think its the players. I really dont. I see some horrible horrible decisions being made by the DC. We got a huge lead against Miami and instead of cranking up the heat on the unproven QB making his 2nd NFL start we went into one of the softest zones i have seen. Now if Romeo is the defensive guru, he has to see this. Fire Grantham now and take over the defense. Seriously if you cant do a better job than this you shouldnt have a job.
This team is being led into bad habits. They lack aggression and discipline and the zone coverages they are playing are just absurd its the stuff Butch did against Pitt. Romeo take charge and show me you are more than Chud's O.
You could be right.
That leads to to wonder if Romeo isn't the guy "helping" the D right now.?????
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't beleive firing Gratham is the answer,...although I could understand if they did.....I just think he needs a little guidance from Romeo over the bye.
We have the time to make some "productive" adjustments to the D,....let's hope they're working day and night to accomplish SOMETHING.
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682 |
I don't think Grantham is the guy who should lose his job.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
I dont think its the players. I really dont. I see some horrible horrible decisions being made by the DC. We got a huge lead against Miami and instead of cranking up the heat on the unproven QB making his 2nd NFL start we went into one of the softest zones i have seen. Now if Romeo is the defensive guru, he has to see this. Fire Grantham now and take over the defense. Seriously if you cant do a better job than this you shouldnt have a job.
This team is being led into bad habits. They lack aggression and discipline and the zone coverages they are playing are just absurd its the stuff Butch did against Pitt. Romeo take charge and show me you are more than Chud's O.
That´s what I saw too...I was so mad about that... we had the fish at 3rd and long several times with huge lead and then we "rush" with 3 or 4 DL (or Wimb/McG with hands down whcih isnt a great idea without another rusher on that side)....
Grantham needs to mix it up better....when we rushed Lemon he made mistakes (1st INT)....I´ll never get why Coaches change things that are working...if it aint broke...
So, overall I´d say...we do not have great players on D but the play calling isn´t putting those guys in the best position
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
I see some horrible horrible decisions being made by the DC. We got a huge lead against Miami and instead of cranking up the heat on the unproven QB making his 2nd NFL start we went into one of the softest zones i have seen. I never had the confidence in TG..HIS DEFENSES in Houston were how good? Oh I know someone will say he didn't have any talent there and doesn't here but the same things are happening here..poor containment and horrible tackling.. If the Browns won't fire him, then they have to ignore him and the defense should be turned over to Romeo and Tucker should be the co-DC with Romeo. Pass rush is a problem for a couple of reasons. First, there is an obvious talent issue, but not as much as some think. The primary issue is at NT, which is unfortunately the key to the 3-4 defense. Roye is older and having health problems, so Shawn Smith, a player with the potential to develop into a good NT can't be used that way. Instead he is being used as a DE. The primary mistake I see Grantham and Romeo making here is using Smith at DE. While a 3-4 needs good DE, the NT position is absolutely critical. Smith should have been put at NT from day one of camp and never moved anywhere else.  Moving him to DE in preseason was a horrendous mistake for this season. While the kid has the ability to develop into a good DE, he is the only player on the roster that can really belly up to the bar at NT. He needs to develop technique, but he would be well on his way by now if he had been started and kept there. Second curious thing..look at Wimbley...Wimbley is playing like a DE; He's NOT palying a OLB posiiton in any stretch of the 3-4 definition. A 3-4 OLB has multiple responsibilities; rushing the passer, covering a TE or RB on pass routes, and keeping contain on outside runs. Wimbley rushes the QB. Oh and gets contained in the run defense.. When we jumped out to that 24-3 lead we let off the throttle..and no adjustment came in that third quarter ..none.. We can say Phil hasn't brought much talent on this side of the ball there are other factors as well.. Roye..hurt and older, SS playing DE instead of NT...Kelley playing NT , yet he gets shoved everywhere..Smith, not a impact DE but a upgrade who has to learn not to overpursue or take the wronginside gap.. Since Russell isn't here anymore Jones/Pool have to direct the secondary and take on added responsibilities...is it hurting more than we know? I still look at TG , he's running the scheme that RAC wants but how much is he inept? I fear quite a bit and it's showing..I don't feel Rac is running the D(yet).. I'm sure he sits down and goes over the game plan, adding his own insights and such. But he may have to because TG isn't getting it done..or rather we don't see improvement..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
I don't think Grantham is the guy who should lose his job.
no, you think the offenses success is all because of the coordinator, but the defenses failures are all because of the head coach.
Different Day, same story... you just want to find reasons to fire RAC for reasons that I can only describe as irrational.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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