DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns new look defense

PPE knows how much I really don't like Romeo, but the team is winning. Barring a meltdown, his job is safe

I don't think Grantham is the guy who should lose his job.
WHY?
U want to discredit Rac when he designed and ran Bellyache's scheme yet TG is running Rac's scheme and not having success and it's not all in part to a lack of talent.
But he shouldn't be axed..Rac should..
Your fire Rac agenda has taken a new low..

I don't think Romeo is going anywhere either....he has made some adjustments.

Some of those adjustment were IMO made by other people, but RAC is the winner.

Unless we fall apart, he will be back next year...and really, I don't have a problem with that. It is all about winning...I fully admit...winning is everything to me....if we win, all is good...and it doesn't have to be the Superbowl...at least until we come up just short a time or two.

Here's where I differ from the reports..I watched both play quite a bit...and saw where they lined up and what they did.
Now this is where you shot your foot off..U convientantly left off the rest of the report...


Overview:
If Tapp can continue the steady improvement that he's shown the past few years, he could be something special in the NFL, if only as a passing-downs guy and special teamer, like the Colts' Robert Mathis. Teams adjusting to the 3-4 may look at him as a guy to convert into a 3-4 OLB, as he has shown ample coverage skills in the zone blitzes that VT tends to use.


Thats a NO NO... THAT in itself ruins your objection..
Sometimes a good evaluator looks at a player and sees if he can play another position as well..testing him at the WILL spot wouldn't harm the kid..I actually think he's be a improvement because of being a more physical force against the run..


agree that there could be the potential for both of them to bulk up at LBs, but both Dumervil and Tapp's best attribute is their SPEED. Why you would want to take that away by making both of them gain 20+ pounds is beyond me.

This is what I really can't stand a lot of times..where did I say I wanted these guys to add weight????
For what reason? They're heavy enough..they're big enough..
Niether one is a DE in a 34..they're OLB's..but I said I would have put them in the WILB spot IF the Browns hadn't taken DQ....they wouldn't be matched up against a OT..the DT would be..
As far as size goes DQ had to gain 12pds just to get up to 240 and he's still lightweight..
Since you highlighted ED's report lets look at it..

Dumervil is an undersized pass rushing specialist who relies on speed and explosive quickness off the ball to get upfield and pressure the quarterback. He must stay away from the middle of blockers as he can be swallowed up by most tackles if they get a good shot at him. He plays with a good sense of angles and has good hand use when he gets on the edge of a blocker, and has a good burst on escape to close on the quarterback. He is not strong against the run and has to pick a side and hope he does not give up run lanes to the ball carrier. He is very active and can make plays to either sideline as well as downfield in pursuit. He is pretty much a situational player who is used on passing downs and can hold his own, at best, when teams run at him."

He plays the OLB role in Denvers scheme and comes off the edge and does play all 3 downs..see, thats the benefit of watching certain players..I see if they exceed all the negatives that a report says about them.
In our scheme he could be that OLB ..as far as being a liability against the run...that remains to be seen as I see Wimbley struggle to improve on that ..nor do I see him dropping into coverage that often..
And stop saying MLB...as if that player is only responsible for inside containment...I said I wanted one or either to be tried in ILB..Jackson's spot..we're not a 43 but that WILL spot plays toward the sideline more than AD's spot..
My board was set up something like this :

12-H.Ngata DT
43-M.McNeil OT.I think most of us guessed he wouldn't go first round and he didn't because of the reported back problems...
78-Tapp/Dumervil ...
somewhere I kept flopping Gerris Wilkinson from GT around..I was looking at 34 LB's..

The bottom is going to fall out on Dumervil eventually. Denver is crushing him by making him a full time player. He's a third down rush specialist. Plus, there is 1 (productive)pass rusher in the NFL who is under 6'0...him. There's a reason there isn't more.

Tapp is okay, but he is not a guy who was going to drop back into coverage, seal off the edge, etc. He's a great, high effort guy who just wears out opponents, but I'm not sure he has the first step, or the size to be a 3-4 backer.

Yet thats what Wimbley is supposed to be doing..how often does he drop back , even into a short zone?

As far as sealing the edges he doesn't do that at all..he gets pinned inside or over pursues..

Your designated rush linebacker in a 3-4 is supposed to play containment on the run, pin it back inside, and let the ILB's clean it up. Wimbley either gets too far upfield, or he doesn't properly seal outside. When you have corners in off man, and neither really plays the run that well, it's an issue. Ronnie Brown kept cutting on Wimbley.

And before someone proclaims he a hater, I'm ripping on Wimbley, blah blah, go watch DeMarcus Ware. Ware is playing nearly the exact same position scheme wise, and he doesn't get smoked on the run like Wimbley does. I love Wimbley, just pointing out a fact.

The Browns don't drop Wimbley back a lot, mostly because they get no pressure up the middle. It's a problem.

YOU'RE A HATER!!!
Actually that would make me one also..
And don't mention Ware's name..I had him on my mock ..saw that kid play several times and knew he was player..

I drink my Hater-ade every morning...

I think that was a year where grabbing Ware or Merriman at 3 was a bit out of the question, and that was not a year that anyone wanted to trade up. Both got drafted right about where they were supposed to. Funny story, I heard pre draft the Lions were a lock to take Merriman or Derrick Johnson. We know how that pick worked out.

I drink a bigger glass than U..

Phil said the trade offers were weak but I tell you, when you see the production of these players, sometimes ya have to throw the book out..
I know Botch did

The only issue that I have with DQ is that he is too small to be a protoypical 3-4 ILB. This forces him to be a coverage LB ala Donnie Edwards.

In the ideal 3-4, you want to be able to send any of the 4 LB's and when you perform a zone blitz, you send the OLB and ILB from the same side.

Having an ineffective rush ILB limits the defensive options.

You're argument is to draft him and try him at WILL? If you can show me a scout saying that Tapp would make a good ILB, I'd be willing to listen more. We all know that Wimbley switched positions, but again, you're talking about sticking both of these guys at MLB, not OLB. As for being more physical against the run, our LBs will constantly look like they are beat with such a terrible D-line ahead of them.


Knowing how Rac likes to run his scheme(in NE) , DE/LB's and DB's are interchangable ..well if they're talented enough..
Initially , I thought of drafting either and havin them play OLB..then after discussing those thoughts with a guy who actually scouted both and presented my thought about using them inside he actually saw the possiblity of that happening..for one due to their mobility..

I'm confused - do paid NFL scouts not watch players? Seriously, you're making yourself sound above paid scouts.
Not making myself sound more important than anyone..I do know something about evaluating talent and I'm not gonna act like I don't

If we did draft them, no way Dumervil or Tapp would be dropping back into coverage
U have yet to explain why they wouldn't or couldn't.. ..and Thats a paradox because a OLB in a 34 does have pass coverage responsibilites..

Or you indicating that we would be starting Tapp or Dumervil by now at ILB? Just curious, because I have to imagine the learning curve in switching from DE to ILB is quite high.
Are U saying it's impossible?
Seems we've been moving Thompson around since he's been here...
Wimbley is having to learn to be a OLB...
Other small DE's learn how to...
Why is Cleveland the place where something can't happen?

We need a NOSE TACKLE and not TED. WE can not move ahead with our present DL. Our offense will keep us in games. Our defense will not let us win division.

Attack, most college DE's who get moved to ILB do so later on their career. Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi, Monty Beisel are the three that come to mind. The thing the ILB in a 3-4 is pretty complicated position, and it's usually a veteran position. I'm not saying the Browns are doing it wrong, just that the DE move to ILB in a 3-4 can take years.

If you wanted to know one guy who might be able to do it is Casper Brinkley of South Carolina, Jasper's twin brother.

This idea wasn't about the Browns doing it wrong, this was just something I speculated on and ran by a guy who scouts..he knows who he is if he ever chimes in this thread..

My bias in a 34 are that I like my backers to have enough weight/mass to take the pounding that comes..250 -270 is the range I like and I saw few natural OLB's in that draft that fit that bill..
I didn't see that many insiders that fit the bill either, plus I remember Phil saying he felt Tapp was more of a insider backer than a outside one which was interesting..

No, I understand your point.

Tapp has a similar build, playing style, and skills to Vrabel at parallel points in their careers, so maybe. With him playing on the line in Seattle though (and Seattle never uses the zone blitz) we'll probably never know.

Cleveland Browns' porous defense a concern for coaches

Saturday, October 20, 2007

Mary Kay Cabot
Plain Dealer Reporter

Lost in the euphoria of the Browns' offensive jubilee is the fact the defense is frighteningly bad in almost every statistical category.

It's a good thing the offense is scoring 32 points per game with quarterback Derek Anderson at the helm, because the defense is giving up 30.5, third-worst in the NFL. But that's only one of the many horrible defensive rankings plaguing coach Romeo Crennel during this bye week. The unit is also:

Ranked next-to-last in the NFL in total defense with an average of 413 yards per game.

Last in the NFL with 183 points allowed.

Last in the NFL with 17 touchdown passes allowed.

Last in the NFL with 21 TDs allowed.

Last in the NFL with 25 passes of 20 yards or more given up.

Ranked 29th in pass defense, surrendering 263.5 yards per game.

Ranked 30th in run defense with an average of 149.5 yards allowed.

What's more, it's allowed a 100-yard rusher in each of the first six games and is on pace to surrender 6,608 yards, which would shatter the club record of 6,046 set in 1999.

And those 17 touchdown passes? They're just three shy of the 20 the Browns gave up all last season. And it's not just New England's Tom Brady and Cincinnati's Carson Palmer feasting at this table. Newbie Cleo Lemon, making his second NFL start last week for the Miami Dolphins, completed passes of 14, 15, 23, 25 and 32 yards en route to a 31-point day.

"We're not doing good enough, that's the bottom line," Crennel said. "We've got to get the guys' techniques tightened up . . . tackling, all of it. It's a combination of things we have to do better.

"I am [surprised] to a degree," he said. "I expected better."

But he'll resist the temptation to take over the defensive play-calling. After all, he comes from the Bill Parcells tree, where, for the most part, coordinators coordinate.

"[Defensive coordinator] Todd [Grantham] is calling the plays," Crennel said. "We talk every week on what we think needs to be done and what we can improve. We'll continue to do that."

A goal of the bye week, he said, is defensive consistency.

"When you look at the games, we go through stretches where we do decent and then we hit stretches where we have lulls," Crennel said. "We have to improve that. If we improve our tackling, we have a chance to be in better position overall. Sometimes you're not exactly where you need to be and you try to make an arm tackle. Most times in this league, arm tackles aren't good enough. Then we have to get more guys to the football."

A look at what else has gone wrong and what can be done about it:

No. 1. Big Ted and Big O: The Browns knew they were long in the tooth on the defensive line heading into the season, but it's been worse than feared. Nose tackle Ted Washington has lost his starting job to Ethan Kelley, and defensive end Orpheus Roye has given way to Shaun Smith because of nagging knee injuries. Smith was supposed to rotate with Washington, but is now needed at end, not his natural position. The Browns can only hope that Kelley and Smith improve each week in their new roles and that Roye regains his health.

No. 2. What's the rush? The Browns are tied for 28th in the league with only six sacks. Part of the problem is that linebacker Willie McGinest missed the first three games with a back injury and is still rounding into shape. His replacement, Antwan Peek, has been limited much of the season with a foot injury. So instead of a healthy McGinest with a healthy Peek to keep him fresh, the Browns have had only one edge-rusher in linebacker Kamerion Wimbley, who has consistently drawn double teams. But there's reason for optimism here: If McGinest and Peek get back to 100 percent, Wimbley will have help.

No. 3. Browns 'Backers: Linebacker Andra Davis began the season with a foot injury and didn't always seem himself in the early going, although he denies it was a factor. Leon Williams started ahead of him in the Miami game and that might continue, although Williams made only three tackles against the Dolphins compared to D'Qwell Jackson's nine. Jackson, in fact, is off to a fine start, ranking fourth in the NFL with 51 tackles.

No. 4. Safety net: The Browns underestimated Brian Russell's ability to get the defensive backs in the right spots and teams have exposed the weakness of strong safety Sean Jones singled up on a tight end. The Browns will try to fix it. One possibility is swapping Jones with free safety Brodney Pool, Crennel said. Of the 17 touchdown passes the Browns have given up, seven have gone to tight ends, including two in each of the past two games.

If none of that works, the offense will have to start scoring 36 per game instead of 32.

Zastudil honored:

Browns punter Dave Zastudil recently was inducted into Ohio University's Kermit Blosser Ohio Athletics Hall of Fame. Zastudil, a Westlake native, graduated from Ohio in 2002.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

mcabot@plaind.com, 216-999-4670

Good read.

On the NT deal.....if Smith is weakened at the end slot, just play him at NT and forget about playing him at end.

I would also make room for one of the PS ends by dumpimg Ted. Give Pittman or the other kid some time to see what they have

I have no earthly idea why Ted is still here.

None.

The defense is not lacking talent. There are no holes that need filled in experience or talent on this defense. The defense needs to use different technique and a gameplan adjustment.

The defense has looked better in the 3 losses so far than the wins

The Line appeared to be locking up with O-linemen in the Miami game instead of driving past them or fighting off the blocks. The line need to get off the snap faster. The Miami game should have been played with the defense giving up short passes and keeping the game in front of the linebackers and db's which the Dolphins were apt to do. The tight front the Browns played is something I've argued for before, and I agree with it most of the time, but against the Dolphins who were so often passing for very short yardage it seems beating them by giving them what they wanted to do would have been easier.

This next point goes back years. This goes back to 99 and before and over many coaches.
The Browns gave up all but two yards on 3rd and 25 and when the Dolphins went for it on 4th down they converted. This has been going on for years, that the Browns can't get off the field on defense when the play is 3rd and forever, (see helmut throwing play vs KC in 02).

Quote:

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The defense is not lacking talent. There are no holes that need filled in experience or talent on this defense. The defense needs to use different technique and a gameplan adjustment.

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As a boss he needs to be able to make those decisions and be able to explain to the rest of the squad why the decision was made. (and that would be easy, they know Ted is playing on a sub-par level)

No disagreement here.

He also needs to be able to explain it to the player so a player of tenure like Ted can call a PC and make his own call.

I hope that happens any day now.

Giving CT more time probably couldn't hurt, all things considered. Other seemingly -knowledgable posters over the years have said he lacks instincts, however.

I hear ya, if our LBs aren't going to stop the run other guys should start getting more looks.

Some changes need to be made to this defense because that's more important than a DA vs Quinn debate. We got a shot at being pretty good if our D somehow finds a way to go from bad to average. I like the way D'Qwell is playing and I think our secondary is getting better. Eric Wright has improved immensely since the beginning of the season. He's gonna be good enough to be a number one cornerback. Our D-Line and linebackers have to improve their play. Everyone sees it, we get no rush on the QB and we can't stop the run. It's not just the D-Line's fault, but they're definitely a big part of the blame. Some guys have to come in and step up because our team can be good if our defense can get their act together. Someone really needs to light a fire under their butts. So we should start taking out Andra and playing Chaun or taking out Peek/McGinnest and giving Chaun some reps.

He always played pretty well against the run and his pass coverage has really improved. He's not a bad player IMO by any means. I always liked his play whether he has bad instincts or not.

I'm bumping this thread, because I feel there are some inner issues that need to be brought out..

What I've seen the past couple of games is that the run defense is primarily getting torch on cutback runs. Also, every end around has been successful against our D.

My question to those of you who have paying close attention, is it by design or just running backs using their vision?

It's our linemen overpursuing and NOT staying in their gaps..
Case in point I've seen R.Smith start out to his side of the ball then cut inside only to get tapped at the hole..
Andre is often overpursing and just isn't instinctive enough to know where the ball is coming..but thats nothing new for him
Dq just gets handled when he isn't freed up..

I think teams plan to do that.....with Ted in they know he won't get down the line for any cutbacks.

Guys down the line shouldn't look to sprint to the furthest point...they all need to aim for a point down the line similar to how they lined up....if not, we will continue to see backs head for the sideline to draw people outside, then cut back into the middle.

Anytime a end around is successful it's the guys are that side have left their gaps and gotten baited into pursing and THEY cannot recover...

I don't remember many end arounds be run on us.....but yes, tradition holds the off side end needs to trail the play behind the LOS a bit to maintain some degree of backside containment.

There has been at least three.