Oh, no doubt. Anyone that practices can be very good at it. In fact, I know 3-Gun shooters that can hand-load 8 shells into a standard tube faster than I can swap a pre-loaded magazine. However, not everyone has the time or intent to practice that much, and that is the value.
Semi-auto lets you get a second round out a lot faster for the 99% of people that don't practice that much. Heck, even Jerry Miculik competes with a semi-auto instead of pump (and even has his own JM 930 Pro model), and you don't get much better than him.
a 7-shot pump is perfectly fine, nothing wrong with it at all.. that doesn't mean that better options don't have value.
Just like I'd rather have the shotgun and never need it, I'd rather have the ability to reload faster and have it never matter.... especially if I can do so at the same price point.
I can get by driving to the store in an old body-on-frame, naturally aspirated carbuerated car that has a distributor cap.. it will absolutely work. That doesn't mean I should never consider getting a more modern design that will run smoother and simpler.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
There's also simpler > complex. While I would practice and keep my firearm clean and in good working order, I'm also not an enthusiast, and don't have gobs of free time to devote to basically what would be a new hobby. A simpler firearm (pump shotty or small revolver) is preferable for me.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I would certainly agree that a semi auto would work better for most people. I use a combination of my pump shotgun and a 15 shot 9mm. for home defense. It's just what I've gotten used to and find comfortable over time.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
My wife and I have been talking about a firearm for home protection. She's very much anti-guns, I'm actually pretty meh (despite my support for 2nd). If we did, it would be either a handgun or shotgun. The handgun has the benefit of size, while a pump shotty has the benefit of the sound it makes when you rack it. Shouldn't ever have to fire it at someone with that sound.
That mentality in a home defense situation could get you killed. The sound of racking a shotgun may scare some teenage burglars, but it won't scare a dedicated committed criminal or someone on drugs. The racking of the shotgun will however give away your element of surprise and your general location in your house.
Just last week I saw a story some methed out idiot tunneled his way into this guy apartment from a floor above him and fell through the floor of his kitchen landing on his refrigerator and attacked him with a knife...the gun did nothing to deter this deranged psychopath.
Pistols and revolvers take a good bit of range time to become adept with them. I have thousands of rounds though my 2 most commonly used pistols.
My Neighbor just bought one off my FFL a few weeks ago. Gun is easy-peasey to use, recoil is hardly anything, you got a nice big doube stack magazine that can hold 15 rounds of 12 Gauge and a spare Mag that can hold 10 rounds. This thing can be reloaded fast....this gun is a house clearer plain and simple.
If your looking for home defense and don't have a lot of experience nor time/money to spend a bunch of time at the range training with a pistol or a rifle, that there is the shotgun to get.
Get a flash light attachment for it, and if you want to go all out a laser sight and your good...
You don't want a tube shotgun as it will take to long to reload. Always assume multiple attackers, the 25 rounds of 12G on tap in a moments notice will be a life saver.
If you need 25 rounds from a shotgun to protect yourself from a few burglars, you need to practice.
Its not about that.
Ever hear the saying:
"Its always better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it"
You can get a 12g with a 15 rd mag and a 10 round spare mag for not a lot of money...no reason to not get one...
Unless you really like revolvers, why carry a 5 or 6 shot .38/.357 mag when you can carry something like a Springfield hell cat that is the same size or smaller, lighter, and can carry 11+1 with a spare mag for about the same price?
That Mossberg 590M is a much better home defense tool then your standard pump or semi-auto tube shotguns...since the costs are similar, if your in the market to buy one, might as well buy the best tool for the job...after all, your trusting your life to it.
One could argue if you need 15 rds in a 9mm you need practice. I don't think that statement is accurate either.
You know how many shots you need in a self defense scenario? More than your gun holds is always the answer...so get the highest capacity you can afford.
"Its always better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it"
Actually I use that saying myself quite a bit.
I understand everything you're saying. I just simply do not envision a situation where I can not handle it with a seven shot pump shotgun and a 15 shot 9mm semi auto in combination.
I know some people like to prepare for an end of days scenario. I have plenty of other weapons at my disposal. But the odds of me needing more than 22 rounds for an immediate response before I could secure access to some of my other weapons when someone breaks into my home I consider extremely remote.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
"Its always better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it"
Actually I use that saying myself quite a bit.
I understand everything you're saying. I just simply do not envision a situation where I can not handle it with a seven shot pump shotgun and a 15 shot 9mm semi auto in combination.
I know some people like to prepare for an end of days scenario. I have plenty of other weapons at my disposal. But the odds of me needing more than 22 rounds for an immediate response before I could secure access to some of my other weapons when someone breaks into my home I consider extremely remote.
Agree'd...At that point, it would be more of a professional job, and chances are they have you outgunned and outnumbered in that scenario.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
"Its always better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it"
Actually I use that saying myself quite a bit.
I understand everything you're saying. I just simply do not envision a situation where I can not handle it with a seven shot pump shotgun and a 15 shot 9mm semi auto in combination.
I know some people like to prepare for an end of days scenario. I have plenty of other weapons at my disposal. But the odds of me needing more than 22 rounds for an immediate response before I could secure access to some of my other weapons when someone breaks into my home I consider extremely remote.
Right on! I am in the same boat. I see my pistols are merely a tool to get to my rifle. That's what my 50's military father taught me.
I was speaking to Ober being it was going to be his first and maybe only home defense gun, the 25 rounds makes sense as unlike us, he won't have other weapons to fall back on, at least not initially. All of us bought our weapons over time and they were much more affordable before COVID.
Federal appeals court strikes down California's ban on high-capacity magazines, says restrictions violate 2nd Amendment 'It criminalizes the possession of half of all magazines in America today,' court majority says in ruling
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday struck down California’s ban on high-capacity magazines on the basis that its restrictions violate the Second Amendment -- noting that it would criminalize half the magazines in the U.S.
The state’s law bans possession of large-capacity magazines (LCMs) that hold more than 10 rounds. The court’s three-judge panel said that while the law has a “laudable goal of reducing gun violence,” it must also comply with the Constitution.
“It makes unlawful magazines that are commonly used in handguns by law abiding citizens for self-defense. And it substantially burdens the core right of self-defense guaranteed to the people under the Second Amendment,” Judge Kenneth Lee wrote in the majority opinion. “It cannot stand.”
That's why we have concealed carry. I was active in the debates prior to getting this legistation. All the warnings about road rage shootouts, drunken family squabbles resulting in murder, settling minor disputes with handgun duals, etc. Despite this, it's proven to be a huge success.....and it wasn't a small minority that pushed this through. It had a LOT of support.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
That's why we have concealed carry. I was active in the debates prior to getting this legistation. All the warnings about road rage shootouts, drunken family squabbles resulting in murder, settling minor disputes with handgun duals, etc. Despite this, it's proven to be a huge success.....and it wasn't a small minority that pushed this through. It had a LOT of support.
If you were that involved, thank you.
I've had my CCW permit since a bit(6-9mos) after the initial mass rush was over. The Sheriffs offices were INUNDATED for quite some time after it was legally passed.
I again renew in 2022.
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123. On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
I'm on my 3rd renewal this year (2020). It actually expired in July, but due to covid there's a 90 day grace period and you have to make an appointment. They couldn't get me in until September 30th.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
A whole lotta info. Where your CC is honored, etc, etc. Reciprocity with which states and not, etc.
Mine is icon'd on my phone.
handgunlaw.us
That's a really good site. The Ohioans for Concealed Carry site https://ohioccw.org/ is another awesome site loaded with info for Ohio folks. It has an excellent resource section as well as an active message forum where real concerns and questions are discussed. This site was the go-to place when the concealed carry movement started. It's not quite as active as it once was, but it is still fairly active and kept up to date with the latest issues and legislation proposals. It's worth a check in once a week or so.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
It's why we need gun rights. Criminals don't care about laws.
If you think they are going to follow the law, you are out of your mind.
Take guns from them, don't take them from me. I am not shooting at anybody unless they deserve it. I am going to protect my person, family, or property.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Just stay away and all is good. I will say I will defend a neighbor in need. I like to consider myself a good neighbor.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
A whole lotta info. Where your CC is honored, etc, etc. Reciprocity with which states and not, etc.
handgunlaw.us
That's a really good site. The Ohioans for Concealed Carry site https://ohioccw.org/ is another awesome site loaded with info for Ohio folks. It has an excellent resource section as well as an active message forum where real concerns and questions are discussed. This site was the go-to place when the concealed carry movement started. It's not quite as active as it once was, but it is still fairly active and kept up to date with the latest issues and legislation proposals. It's worth a check in once a week or so.
I have that one as well. Great stuff. I've actually asked questions and given answers there.
Lotta knowledge, experiences, etc.
Last edited by TTTDawg; 08/15/2009:52 PM.
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123. On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
I just have a question for everyone. I'm a firm proponent of gun rights. But I guess I must ask how far is too far? I mean, would you be comfortable with people being able to carry a concealed weapon with NO training and no background check? Anyone, without having ANY documented training or background check just buying a gun, loading it and sticking it in their pocket? See, I'm pretty happy with the way things are set up. You must go through classes to establish at least a minimum level of understanding and knowing how to handle a gun safely to get a permit to carry. You must undergo a background check to qualify. But how would you feel about this?
Tennessee Gov. Lee embraces controversial permitless handgun carry proposal
NASHVILLE — Flanked by fellow Republicans, Gov. Bill Lee on Thursday announced he will push legislation to allow most adult Tennesseans to carry handguns without having to undergo training or criminal background checks.
"The Second Amendment's clear and concise and secures the uninfringed right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms," Lee said during a news conference at the state Capitol, a building that bars current handgun-permit holders from bringing in their firearms. "Today, I'm announcing that we will be joining 16 other states in this nation by introducing a constitutional carry law in the state of Tennessee."
Lee, who has given nuanced comments on permitless and so-called "constitutional carry" both during his 2018 campaign for governor and his first year in office, said the effort is "about increasing freedom for Tennesseans" while also increasing jail time for criminals who misuse guns, as well as steal the weapons from vehicles and other places.
He said the latter is an increasing problem in the state and there are bills to require higher minimum sentences for gun theft as well as providing guns to minors and possession of guns by felons. The governor did not provide copies of the legislation to reporters. But estimates are it could cost the state some $20 million.
The governor's "permitless carry" measure, also known as "constitutional carry," will allow gun owners to carry their firearms openly or concealed and go anywhere guns are allowed. But the same prohibitions against carrying weapons at schools and parks, as well as businesses, churches and the like that post signs stating no guns are allowed, will remain in effect, the governor said.
The state also will maintain its existing bifurcated handgun-permit program, which passed in 2019. Obtaining a permit requires training — the type and length depends on whether gun owners seek a concealed or open carry permit — as well as background checks and a permit fee.
Permitless carry costs nothing and requires no training. However, those who choose that option won't be able to carry their firearms in other states unless those states have reciprocal agreements pertaining to permitless carry.
Lee's announcement came in a packed room with several dozen Republican lawmakers on hand. Given the GOP's super majority in both the House and Senate, the legislation likely will pass.
Also present at Lee's announcement were members of the group Moms Demand Action, which opposes permitless carry.
"When people have easy access to guns, unfortunately many people are going to die because of that," said Kristi Cornett, a Portland, Tennessee, member of Moms Demand Action.
Cornett said she believes friends in the "gun safety community," including arms intructors, will oppose the legislation. Cornett noted she is in the process of obtaining a carry permit. "I think it's very important, because you go through the background check system. — It helps people know how to use their gun responsibly and safely."
Rep. Bo Mitchell, D-Nashville, called it a "sad day" when five people died Wednesday in a workplace shooting in Missouri "and we follow it up by creating the Wild West in Tennessee. You know, 2017 was the first year in this country where more people died in gun deaths than they did automobile deaths. And our answer is to create open carry, Wild West permitless carry in this state?"
Rep. Mike Carter, R-Ooltewah, an attorney and former judge who joined Lee at the announcement, called it the "best bill I've ever seen. It trusts the law-abiding citizen, which, to my knowledge, no one has been murdered by a law-abiding person. But it dramatically increases the penalties for those who misuse guns. And that's exactly what I've always held out for."
"This trusts those who are trustworthy, it punishes those who are not," Carter said.
Sen. Todd Gardenhire, R-Chattanooga, said, "this is the first time we've had a bill on this subject that I could support. Everybody thinks we ought to vote for a concept. And we don't. We vote for bills up here that have specifics."
Gardenhire said in the past he has been "reluctant, very reluctant, and told people I wouldn't be for a constitutional carry [bill] as it's been drafted in the past. This is one — I think I can support wholeheartedly because it's a bill that covers the areas that we need to really focus on. It's not a concept, it's a specific bill."
House Majority Leader William Lamberth, R-Portland, said the legislation would hit thieves who have been stealing guns from vehicles across the state.
"That's fewer guns on the street that are going to be in the hands of murderers," the former prosecutor told reporters.
House Speaker Cameron Sexton, R-Crossville, predicted "the Republican Caucus will be voting for this bill." Republicans account for 73 of the 99 House members.
During his announcement, Lee noted that the theft of guns from vehicles went up 85% over the last two years.
Asked later if gun owners who leave their firearms in unlocked vehicles or in open sight of passersby bear some responsibility and should face legal consequences for negligence, Sexton said, "you're assuming they left it on their [seat], but it could have been in the glove box or somewhere else, it could have been in the trunk."
House Democratic Caucus Chairman Mike Stewart of Nashville called the governor's bill "reckless" and "dangerous."
"In a state where anyone can go into a parking lot and purchase an AK-47 or an AR-15 without a background check, I don't think loosening restrictions and allowing anyone to carry guns into our grocery stores, restaurants and offices is a wise move," Stewart said. "This is obviously a politically motivated maneuver designed to appeal to the more radical members of his party that will ultimately endanger Tennessee families."
Several years ago, Stewart drew attention and harsh criticism from Republicans, including Carter, when he came to a House committee hearing on guns with an unloaded assault-style rifle that he said had been partially dismantled.
According to 2019 state Department of Safety figures, 5,453 Tennesseans that year — out of more than 600,000 — had their licenses revoked, suspended or denied because of issues ranging from misdemeanor or felony arrests or convictions to failure to pay child support, which is linked to various licenses.
I think most people who buy a weapon and carry a weapon know how to use it. And really, some 2 day training course isn't really being trained. The best training happens by firing the weapon in some range or shooting cans off stumps in some open field.
Having some state issued permit doesn't make it any safer. Background checks, I can see keeping that a requirement so convicted felons, or people who have been in and out of mental institutions are restricted.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
In a way it hurts the broke guy who wants to tote a gun if he can't afford to get the permit. But I also want some accountability and training. Maybe we should just issue every 5 year old a chest full of loaded guns and no safeties on their birthdays and let Darwin sort this mess.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
We'll see how that works out. On my part, the bare minimum of training beats no training at all. Shooting a gun on the range teaches people nothing about safely carrying and operating a weapon.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Survey Shows Ongoing Problems with Ohio CHL Renewals by Dean Rieck 7:00AM FRIDAY, AUGUST 21, 2020
About 700,000 Ohioans have a Concealed Handgun License (CHL). Under normal circumstances, sheriffs have little problem processing applications and renewals in a timely fashion. However, beginning in March 2020, that changed.
First, health concerns about coronavirus caused a dozen Ohio Sheriff offices to shut down. Within a few weeks, most reopened, but the closures caused a backlog of license applications and renewals. Second, growing concerns about the broader Ohio "shutdown," coupled with increasingly violent protests and calls to defund police around the country, produced a significant spike in both new applications and renewals.
Many sheriffs have never caught up with the demand, even with the 90-day license expiration extension Buckeye Firearms Association helped pass into law before the end of March.
A few weeks ago, we started talking to legislators about another fix. In order to better quantify and explain the problem, we decided to run a survey.
We published the survey on August 12, 2020, and collected 621 responses over six days, with the majority coming in on the first two days.
Here are the results. Download the complete report here.
Were you able to schedule an appointment?
About 80% said "yes," while about 20% said "no."
What is the wait time for an appointment to renew your CHL?
About 40% indicated a wait time of less than a month. Most others said wait times extended from 1 to 7 months, with a handful having to wait up to 12 months.
Did you schedule the appointment in your home county or an adjacent county?
Nearly 63% answered "home county" while about 37% answered "adjacent county."
Will your CHL expire before you can renew?
This was the crucial question, because those unable to renew in a timely manner are effectively having their rights infringed and are unable to legally carry until their renewal is processed. While about 72% said "no" to this question, nearly 28% said "yes."
How long will you be without a valid Ohio CHL?
Nearly 61% said less than a month, though this may also include those indicating that they will not be without a valid license for any amount of time. However, this also means that 39% will be without a valid license for some period of time, ranging from 1 to 12 months.
Here's a small sampling of comments, most of which were positive:
Wayne County is the best. The facility is clean and convenient. Deputy was very courteous and friendly. No wait time. I was given renewal license while I was there, didn’t have to wait 30 days or come back later.
All things considered, the process here in Shelby County was very seamless and went well with no delays of any sort.
Ended up going to Delaware County. Had license renewed in about 2 weeks.
I called on 8/13 and got an appointment for 8/25. Pretty good. They said they were prioritizing in county renewals over new and out of county applications. Those folks are looking at November and December so still not horrible given the scenario.
My Sheriff's office made a special time for me and my wife to renew when we asked.
Scheduled 2 days out in Ashland. Had license in hand 6 days later. This was back in late June, early july 2020.
Of course, some of the comments were negative:
Summit County wouldn't even return calls had to go to Medina County and now they are four to five months out before having appointments available.
It really is amazing how long appointments are taking. All counties around me and my home county are now closed for taking appointments.
I wasn’t even able to make an appointment they showed book to the end of the year and not scheduling anything until after the first 2021. I actually need my license for my business. I go in very early in the morning and I would have no protection a case something happened.
So what do these numbers mean? They show that while most of Ohio's 88 counties are dealing reasonably well with the increase in demand for CHL applications and renewals, a significant number are not.
And when we consider Ohio's 700,000 license holders, a number that is growing every day, the numbers show that thousands of Ohioans will see their licenses expire through no fault of their own, some for many months, before they are able to renew.
And finally, the numbers show why being "licensed" to exercise a Constitutional right is unacceptable.
We have meetings scheduled with House and Senate leaders to present these survey results and push for a solution and continue our pursuit of Constitutional Carry.
>>> CLICK HERE to contact your elected officials and urge them to fix this problem ASAP. Dean Rieck is Executive Director of Buckeye Firearms Association, a former competitive shooter, NRA Patron Member, #1 NRA Recruiter for 2013, business owner and partner with Second Call Defense.
In Lucas county, I called in July and the earliest appointment was September 30th. They did tell me there was a 90 day grace period due to COVID. I know Wood cty was backed up also.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
In Florida, you also have men who call the cops to report their drugs stolen.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Or women who claim that cocaine flew into their purses when the window was open during a traffic stop.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Ha! Everyone should have to declare and record the serial numbers on every gun they own when renewing their state DL or ID. Then anyone caught with a non-registered gun gets 5 years automatic. Problem solved, everyone gets to keep their guns, they are now responsible for everything that happens with the guns. Hold people accountable, ban loaning guns out or not registering them and the whole thing will take care of itself.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Curious, if you're just renewing, why do you need an appointment?
In Florida, you can renew online or by mail, and as long as no red flags come up, they will send your new license.
In Ohio I/we have always renewed at the Sherrifs office. At times a 45-60 min wait. Ya get there and 6-10 people ahead of me, etc. As a guess, never been more than an hr wait. I? BELIEVE? thats been the only place to renew. In person. Geauga County Sherrifs Office has always been terrific about it. Online/by mail isn't/hasn't? been an option.....I believe???
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123. On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
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