DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus COVID 19: The Beginning of the End of this Scourge

I fixed that for him.

100% BS. Let’s see the data Mr. 100%

Actually, no. What he's saying is actually happening. How much and is it significant is the real argument.

Really? BS..... 100% BS with no collaborating evidence to back it up. All BS. Fake. Stop making crap up.

If anything more people are dying of Covid 19 that haven’t been diagnosed and gone unreported.

Well as discussed - based on the statistics and total deaths in more than 27 countries - CV-19 deaths align with the higher numbers of total deaths. Based on the statistics, if anything the CV-19 death count is being slightly under counted. So in the grand scheme of things, I'd say it's insignificant. but I am sure much mileage will be had by those that think this is politically motivated to oust Trump.

Considering that Trump has taken total control of the dissemination of covid data in effort to continue hiding the truth, none of us can trust any of the numbers at this point and we definitely can't point at anything as 100% without pondering rather we have accurate data and facts to base our opinions upon.

We’re saying the same thing right?

Changed my post to make it read more clearly.

Buddy of mine I play hockey with is a nurse at local hospital. He has personally seen where a death that (in his opinion) was something other than COVID was attributed to COVID. He has seen it more than once, and said that colleagues have seen the same thing. He followed this up by stating that if a person is tested multiple times during the same infection (ex. a positive test followed up by a confirmatory test), that those tests are all counted equally towards the daily case total. Put another way, a person who is tested 3 times during the same infection is counted as 3 cases of COVID. I know him somewhat well, and I have no reason to doubt what he's telling me.

I wouldn't bother typing this out if only you were reading... but since there are others that haven't done the message board equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears and yelling loudly, I'll explain my point more clearly. I said deaths are absolutely being misreported. I also said I don't know how much this is happening on the larger scale, and whether or not it's significantly biasing the totals. I did NOT mention the opposite, which is the underreporting of COVID cases (and potentially deaths) that we all know is going on. I just feel that the latter is being talked about much more than the former.

Didn't that decision get reversed?

Not that I'm aware of...

First you say:


Then you say:


See the irony?

I believe it's been discussed on here before, but I think the conversation of 'at what point do you attribute a death to COVID and not all the other comorbidities going on' is a thought-provoking one.



I just take umbrage when someone is screaming and yelling about not backing up their claims, and then turn around in the same post and proclaim it's 100% BS knowing full well it's been reported that this is going on. I'm sitting here laughing and shaking my head at the same time.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-...tion-2020-08-20

I thought I saw this, but after a couple weeks this is all I could find. I don't think it's actually happened yet.

Thank you for putting that more clearly than I did.

So much fallacy in what I’m reading here regarding clinical staff making claims about how covid diagnoses and deaths are reported. Those people have no idea how the final diagnoses and cause of death are reported. Unless they are the physician recording the cause of death or primary diagnosis, and if they were, and lying, they would be reporting about themselves.

I travel the country working in hospitals, and I work closely with those making the decisions on what diagnoses and causes of death are attributed to patients. The people I have worked with in every facility are extremely ethical and will not be moved by politics or money. They do not profit nor are they pressed by an administration who might profit. They would all turn any pressure over to Compliance authorities who would bring anyone up on charges who would try anything unethical.

I’ve seen these types of complaints from clinical folks who have no clue, but do have an agenda. They have NO idea what final diagnoses are reported. It’s disappointing that so much disinformation is reported as fact by people just assuming they know.

You are either misunderstanding or are misinformed.

Oh, please enlighten me as to how you are more informed on this area of expertise than I am. I can’t wait.

So, obviously it’s not AIDS.

But similar to it, can you tell us if it’s mostly true that COVID operates sort of like AIDS? If you know what I mean.

I'd be glad to if you want to have an honest discussion. However, your tone sounds snarky.

Want to PM about it? I'm assuming you misinterpreted my original point. If we do it on here, the gestapo will jump in and it will turn into yet another name-calling and labeling contest.

PM me if you want to discuss it fairly. I don't claim to be an expert and perhaps you can change my mind, but I have talked to quite a few people who are doctors, nurses, and my own wife...who is a Nurse Anesthetist.

Nah cuz, why PM? I wanna read this convo. You can’t pop off like that, then go “yo come to the hallway lemme talk to you.”

This kind of question I will leave for Jester. I don’t pretend to be an expert on everything, like some here.

You tell me I’m misinformed regarding a subject I’m obviously not, and call me snarky. That’s odd, on its own, but I’m always willing to discuss anything with someone who is willing to actually discuss any topic.

I'd rather do it in a PM, Jules. I'm tired of being called a fascist, racist, etc. You won't do that, but the usual suspects will.

One thing before we proceed...........I am NOT an expert. You have way more knowledge about this than I do. You work in hospitals. I don't.

If you don't want to talk in a PM, I might give it a try, but it will just bring me grief because someone will bring up Tom Hanks again and another will say I am a racist and another will say something about a fascist and the victim word will be repeated over and over again. And if I try and fight back, I will be suspended.

lmao and ! This is quoted for truth:



She literally just described you! lmao

and you want to handle it in a PM? lmao:



Swish nailed that though.

Yes, because if we talk about it on the public forum, folks like you will be involved and it will deteriorate into insults and accusations. Of course, it already has thanks to the likes of you.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11...covid-19-412809


Trump officials interfered with CDC reports on Covid-19
The politically appointed HHS spokesperson and his team demanded and received the right to review CDC’s scientific reports to health professionals.
Former Trump campaign official Michael Caputo arrives at the Hart Senate Office building to be interviewed by Senate Intelligence Committee staffers, on May 1, 2018, in Washington, D.C.
Former Trump campaign official Michael Caputo and his team have attempted to add caveats to the CDC's findings, including an effort to retroactively change agency reports that they said wrongly inflated the risks of Covid-19. | Mark Wilson/Getty Images

By DAN DIAMOND
09/11/2020 10:25 PM EDT

The health department’s politically appointed communications aides have demanded the right to review and seek changes to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s weekly scientific reports charting the progress of the coronavirus pandemic, in what officials characterized as an attempt to intimidate the reports’ authors and water down their communications to health professionals.

In some cases, emails from communications aides to CDC Director Robert Redfield and other senior officials openly complained that the agency’s reports would undermine President Donald Trump's optimistic messages about the outbreak, according to emails reviewed by POLITICO and three people familiar with the situation.



CDC officials have fought back against the most sweeping changes, but have increasingly agreed to allow the political officials to review the reports and, in a few cases, compromised on the wording, according to three people familiar with the exchanges. The communications aides’ efforts to change the language in the CDC’s reports have been constant across the summer and continued as recently as Friday afternoon.

The CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports are authored by career scientists and serve as the main vehicle for the agency to inform doctors, researchers and the general public about how Covid-19 is spreading and who is at risk. Such reports have historically been published with little fanfare and no political interference, said several longtime health department officials, and have been viewed as a cornerstone of the nation's public health work for decades.

But since Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign official with no medical or scientific background, was installed in April as the health department's new spokesperson, there have been substantial efforts to align the reports with Trump's statements, including the president's claims that fears about the outbreak are overstated, or stop the reports altogether.

Caputo and his team have attempted to add caveats to the CDC's findings, including an effort to retroactively change agency reports that they said wrongly inflated the risks of Covid-19 and should have made clear that Americans sickened by the virus may have been infected because of their own behavior, according to the individuals familiar with the situation and emails reviewed by POLITICO.

Caputo's team also has tried to halt the release of some CDC reports, including delaying a report that addressed how doctors were prescribing hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug favored by Trump as a coronavirus treatment despite scant evidence. The report, which was held for about a month after Caputo’s team raised questions about its authors’ political leanings, was finally published last week. It said that "the potential benefits of these drugs do not outweigh their risks."




In one clash, an aide to Caputo berated CDC scientists for attempting to use the reports to "hurt the President" in an Aug. 8 email sent to CDC Director Robert Redfield and other officials that was widely circulated inside the department and obtained by POLITICO.


"CDC to me appears to be writing hit pieces on the administration," appointee Paul Alexander wrote, calling on Redfield to modify two already published reports that Alexander claimed wrongly inflated the risks of coronavirus to children and undermined Trump's push to reopen schools. "CDC tried to report as if once kids get together, there will be spread and this will impact school re-opening . . . Very misleading by CDC and shame on them. Their aim is clear."

Alexander also called on Redfield to halt all future MMWR reports until the agency modified its years-old publication process so he could personally review the entire report prior to publication, rather than a brief synopsis. Alexander, an assistant professor of health research at Toronto's McMaster University whom Caputo recruited this spring to be his scientific adviser, added that CDC needed to allow him to make line edits — and demanded an "immediate stop" to the reports in the meantime.

"The reports must be read by someone outside of CDC like myself, and we cannot allow the reporting to go on as it has been, for it is outrageous. Its lunacy," Alexander told Redfield and other officials. "Nothing to go out unless I read and agree with the findings how they CDC, wrote it and I tweak it to ensure it is fair and balanced and 'complete.'"

CDC officials have fought the efforts to retroactively change reports but have increasingly allowed Caputo and his team to review them before publication, according to the three individuals with knowledge of the situation. Caputo also helped install CDC’s interim chief of staff last month, two individuals added, ensuring that Caputo himself would have more visibility into an agency that has often been at odds with HHS political officials during the pandemic.

Email
Paul Alexander uses red type to call for inserting text and accuses CDC officials of trying to use the reports to undermine President Donald Trump. | Screenshot
Asked by POLITICO about why he and his team were demanding changes to CDC reports, Caputo praised Alexander as "an Oxford-educated epidemiologist" who specializes "in analyzing the work of other scientists," although he did not make him available for an interview.



"Dr. Alexander advises me on pandemic policy and he has been encouraged to share his opinions with other scientists. Like all scientists, his advice is heard and taken or rejected by his peers," Caputo said in a statement.

Caputo also said that HHS was appropriately reviewing the CDC's reports. “Our intention is to make sure that evidence, science-based data drives policy through this pandemic—not ulterior deep state motives in the bowels of CDC," he said.

Caputo's team has spent months clashing with scientific experts across the administration. Alexander this week tried to muzzle infectious-disease expert Anthony Fauci from speaking about the risks of the coronavirus to children, and The Washington Post reported in July that Alexander had criticized the CDC's methods and findings.

But public health experts told POLITICO that they were particularly alarmed that the CDC's reports could face political interference, praising the MMWRs as essential to fighting the pandemic.

"It's the go-to place for the public health community to get information that's scientifically vetted," said Jennifer Kates, who leads the Kaiser Family Foundation's global health work. In an interview with POLITICO, Kates rattled off nearly a dozen examples of MMWR reports that she and other researchers have relied on to determine how Covid-19 has spread and who's at highest risk, including reports on how the virus has been transmitted in nursing homes, at churches and among children.

"They're so important, and CDC has done so many," Kates said.

The efforts to modify the CDC reports began in earnest after a May report authored by senior CDC official Anne Schuchat, which reviewed the spread of Covid-19 in the United States and caused significant strife within the health department. HHS officials, including Secretary Alex Azar, believed that Schuchat was implying that the Trump administration moved too slowly to respond to the outbreak, said two individuals familiar with the situation.


The HHS criticism was mystifying to CDC officials, who believed that Schuchat was merely recounting the state of affairs and not rendering judgment on the response, the individuals familiar with the situation said. Schuchat has made few public appearances since authoring the report.

CDC did not respond to a request for comment about Schuchat’s report and the response within the department.

The close scrutiny continued across the summer with numerous flashpoints, the individuals added, with Caputo and other HHS officials particularly bristling about a CDC report that found the coronavirus spread among young attendees at an overnight camp in Georgia. Caputo, Alexander and others claimed that the timing of the August report was a deliberate effort to undermine the president's push on children returning to schools in the fall.

Most recently, Alexander on Friday asked CDC to change its definition of “pediatric population” for a report on coronavirus-related deaths among young Americans slated for next week, according to an email that Caputo shared with POLITICO.

“[D]esignating persons aged 18-20 as ‘pediatric’ by the CDC is misleading,” Alexander wrote, arguing that the report needed to better distinguish between Americans of different ages. “These are legal adults, albeit young.”



By signing up you agree to receive email newsletters or alerts from POLITICO. You can unsubscribe at any time. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
Caputo defended his team’s interventions as necessary to the coronavirus response. “Buried in this good [CDC] work are sometimes stories which seem to purposefully mislead and undermine the President’s Covid response with what some scientists label as poor scholarship — and others call politics disguised in science,” Caputo told POLITICO.

The battles over delaying or modifying the reports have weighed on CDC officials and been a distraction in the middle of the pandemic response, said three individuals familiar with the situation. "Dr. Redfield has pushed back on this," said one individual. "These are scientifically driven articles. He's worked to shake some of them loose."

Kates, the Kaiser Family Foundation's global health expert, defended the CDC's process as rigorous and said that there was no reason for politically appointed officials to review the work of scientists. “MMWRs are famously known for being very clear about their limitations as well as being clear for what they've found," she said.

Kates also said that the CDC reports have played an essential role in combating epidemics for decades, pointing to an MMWR posted in 1981 — the first published report on what became the HIV epidemic.

“Physicians recognized there was some kind of pattern and disseminated it around the country and the world,” Kates said. “We can now see how important it was to have that publication, in that moment.”

I'll hit him up again (next game is Monday). I don't know much about the inner workings a hospital system, so I presented my evidence as it is (take-it-for-what-it's-worth type thing).

Like I said, he seems like a good dude that's sharp. I have no reason to doubt what he's saying.

1. I wasn't trying to insinuate that docs are exercising political agenda via cause of death. My apologies if I sounded like that. My issue is with the process of taking what's going on in the hospitals and how that gets translated to the COVID related #s we see reported. I think, in terms of accuracy, the process leaves a lot to be desired. I can't (and don't) speak to which way that inaccuracy leans, all I'm pointing out is that it exists.

3. So it was happening, but now it's not? He left that last part out. This also jives with quite a few people I know that have the same story that they went to get tested, and for whatever reason didn't take the test and were informed that they had tested positive (via the test they didn't take). I know what you're going to say, and if this were an isolated incident or was isolated to a certain 'sect' of my friends then I would be saying the same thing. But it wasn't.

I don't want to give the wrong impression here. COVID is real. It's not a hoax. It needs to be taken seriously. There exists a line, however, between seriousness and hysteria, and these issues in our various processes seem to push us (as a citizenship) to the wrong side of that line.

Jules is a healthcare expert in the administrative end of things. If anyone knows how the deaths are determined, it would be her. She is not misinformed and certainly doesn't lean to the left in her political views.

If there is actually someone on this board who would be best informed on how the cause of death is determined, the procedures involved in that determination and the circumstances behind it, it would be her.

As if this isn't a sly insult and accusation.



Pot meet kettle.

62% of Americans are worried that 'political pressure' from the Trump administration will rush a coronavirus vaccine, new poll shows

Business Insider
ichoi@businessinsider.com (Inyoung Choi)
,Business Insider•September 12, 2020

62% of adults in the US worry that "political pressure from the Trump administration lead the FDA to rush to approve a coronavirus vaccine without making sure that it is safe and effective," according to a new poll from Kaiser Family Foundation.

President Donald Trump has claimed that a vaccine for coronavirus may be ready in time for the November presidential election.

However, a number of public health experts have called this timeline unrealistic, and CEOs of top drug companies signed a pledge promising to prioritize safety over speed amid uneasy public confidence in the vaccine.


62% of adults in the US fear that President Donald Trump's politics will lead to a rushed vaccine, according to a new poll from the Kaiser Family Foundation.

In KFF's telephone survey conducted between late August and early September, 62% of adults responded that they are "worried that the political pressure from the Trump administration will lead the FDA to rush to approve a coronavirus vaccine without making sure that it is safe and effective."

Like the polarized views on national issues surrounding racial discrimination and immigration, Democrats and Republicans split on this matter as well, with 85% of Democrats and only 35% expressing concern for a rushed vaccine, according to the new poll.

Trump has signaled that a new vaccine may be ready by early November, a few days ahead of the presidential election. In August, Trump claimed that a vaccine could be ready "right around" the time of the upcoming election.

At a Monday White House news conference, Trump criticized Sen. Kamala Harris's who said she would not trust the president with a coronavirus vaccine as "reckless anti-vaccine rhetoric," and suggested once again that a vaccine could come as early as October. Earlier this month, CDC director Robert Redfield asked state governors to prepare to be able to distribute vaccines by November 1.

Public health experts, however, have repeatedly stressed that Trump's timeline is unrealistic, and instead suggested that a vaccine is more likely to come at the end of this year or 2021. Earlier this month, CDC director Robert Redfield asked state governors to prepare to be able to distribute vaccines by November 1. Dr. Anthony Fauci said Tuesday that it was "unlikely" that a vaccine will be ready by the November election, and stated that a vaccine is more likely to be confirmed towards the end of the year.

Still, around 40% of adults said that the FDA and CDC were "paying 'too much attention" to politics, according to the KFF poll.

This sentiment comes amid, reports that Trump administration officials have sought to water down reports from the CDC, Politico reported Friday night, with one political appointee accusing career scientists of trying to undermine the president's campaign to reopen schools.

To "ensure public confidence," CEOs of top drug companies have jointly pledged to establish the safety and efficacy of vaccines through Phase 3 clinical trials before seeking regulatory approval.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/62-americans-worried-political-pressure-185450133.html

U.S. is not 'rounding the corner' on COVID - Fauci
Reuters •September 12, 2020 0:06 1:19


(TRUMP, Sept 10): And I really do believe we're rounding the corner and the vaccines are right there..."

While President Trump continues to paint a rosy picture of America's grip on the coronavirus, top government infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci disagreed - saying the statistics are disturbing.

The outspoken director of the the National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said the United States was starting the flu season with a high baseline of around 40,000 new daily coronavirus cases with 1,000 Americans still dying every single day.

The president this week argued that he played down the severity of the virus since it emerged early this year so as not to cause a panic.

Speaking on MSNBC, Fauci said on Friday that instead of rounding the corner, the U.S. may be facing new perils, adding:

"If you're talking about getting back to a degree of normality which resembles where we were prior to COVID, it's going to be well into 2021, maybe even towards the end of 2021."

Fauci said he hoped the country did not see a spike in cases after the Labor Day weekend as it did after other long holiday weekends since May.

Fauci said it was important to get those infection rates down before the autumn and winter seasons when people will be spending more time indoors.

Video Transcript

DONALD TRUMP: And I really do believe we're rounding the corner and the vaccines are right there.

- While President Trump continues to paint a rosy picture of America's grip on the coronavirus, top government infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci disagreed on Friday, saying the statistics are disturbing. The outspoken director of the National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said the United States was starting the flu season with a high baseline of around 40,000 new daily coronavirus cases with 1,000 Americans still dying every single day. The president this week argued that he played down the severity of the virus since it emerged early this year so as not to cause a panic.

Speaking on MSNBC, Fauci said on Friday that instead of rounding the corner, the US may be facing new perils. Adding quote, "If you're talking about getting back to a degree of normality which resembles where we were prior to COVID, it's going to be well into 2021, maybe even toward the end of 2021." Fauci said he hoped the country did not see a spike in cases after the Labor Day weekend as it did after other long holiday weekends since May. Fauci said it was important to get those infection rates down before the autumn and winter seasons when people will be spending more time indoors.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-not-rounding-corner-covid-165950939.html

I am on-board with this while recognizing (and hoping) that not one minute will be wasted. With only around half the country willing to be vaccinated, there can be no hiccups that could cause a lack of confidence in the vaccine...

Top HHS official accuses scientists of plotting against Trump, tells supporters to buy ammunition

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/51...nst-trump-tells

but yea, lets not bring panic to the people!

The career scientists "haven’t gotten out of their sweatpants except for meetings at coffee shops” to plot “how they’re going to attack Donald Trump,” Caputo said, according to the Times. “There are scientists who work for this government who do not want America to get well, not until after Joe Biden is president.”
What a POS.

And people wonder why I've been telling liberals to heavily arm themselves.

This BS is what is getting people killed. I hope a trumper does... all I'm going to say on this.

j/c: