DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Rioters, Looters, Antifa, Continued...

Thinking out loud.... I wonder how many folks heads would explode if somebody started saying *Oh gee 93 percent of all cops are good cops, only 7 percent beat and kill people for no reason.

I believe that the 93 percent number is misleading. For example, I have a feeling that widespread incidents such as the following are not even being considered.

I agree.


Shouldn't the 93 percent of protesters also do the same with the 7 percent who are rioting, and looting???

So you support vigilantes?

We in Gotham now?

I think most would say good job 93%. Now let's figure out a good way to address that 7%

I agree to an extent but by framing the discussion this way its trying to associate the 7% with the 93%.... I don't think that's accurate

Oh, that's not it at all. It's about perspective. 93% of the protests are peaceful yet 100% of everything those on the right concentrate on is the 7%.

And let's break it down even further. Of those 7% that are not peaceful, what percentage of the people in those are violent?

When you break it all down, 100% of those on the right focus only on less than 1% of the people that actually are creating the violence. They make it the entire focus of everything while ignoring the other 99% of the people involved in the protests.

So yeah, it's about perspective. But as you can see, some people think that's funny. Those are the exact people I'm talking about. People who use 1% of anything to try and make a point while ignoring the other 99%.

Prove it. Do share how you know there are "tons" of these people.

pssst.... Let me give you a clue here. 7% of the protests turn violent. But it's a small percentage of those at the 7% of protests who are actually being violent. So it's far, far less than 7% of people surrounding the protests that are actually being violent. Even if it's 20% of the protestors that become violent at that 7% of protests? Well you do the math on just what a small percentage that is.

Yet Trump and his cronies will focus on that to change the actual narrative.

And as you can see from their posts, they'll laugh about it.

I support protesters taking photo's and video's of those who start rioting and looting, then hand those pics and video's over to the police. Just like I expect those good cops to speak up and blow the whistle on bad cops.

We agree on that. Do you agree with me that the same should be said about the protesters/rioters. Good job to the 93 percent, and we have to find away to throw the book at those 7 percent guilty of rioting and looting.

I certainly agree with this. Now if we could all band together in an effort to establish policies and punishments to stop it things could get better.



But we do all agree with that. Biden agrees with that. Innocent people on both sides are being unfairly treated. I mean nobody gets shot in the back seven times or strangled for eight minutes by having their dinner interrupted but it's still wrong.

In both cases, we can all use excuses to blame either side if we use the most extreme cases to base our opinion on. If we take the most extreme subset in either direction it looks horrible. Or we can look at things from a big picture point of view. We can look at what the vast majority involved are trying to accomplish and their method of going about it.

In this case, the vast, vast majority of those trying to end police brutality are doing it via peaceful protests. They are doing it the right way.

So your choice is a simple one. You cal allow yourself to be led by a small minority on the most extreme side to rule your thoughts, or you can look at the vast majority and see they are doing it the right way and support them.

You see, that's what I've chosen to do. I have and will continue to speak out against those who are engaging in criminal acts. They should be arrested and prosecuted. They aren't protesting. They are engaging in criminal activity.

At the very same time I will support well over 95% of the people doing it the right way by peacefully protesting. Those who are supporting a change for the better. Those who are supporting equal justice for all Americans.

It's exactly the same example you used with the police. Are there bad cops? Yes there are. Are the vast majority of the police good cops? I believe they are. So I support good cops while wanting the system to change which will ensure the bad cops pay the price.

You see, your example isn't the only one that applies here. You also have the choice to support those protesting the right way while speaking out against those doing it the wrong way. Exactly as you suggest we do that when it comes to the cops. Perspective should be something that works in both directions.

Absolutely! 100%!

Absolutely.
I think most people support the protestors right to protest.
I think everyone agrees looting and rioting is wrong.

There's lots of documents examples. AS many as there are documented examples of Left leaning activists being involved. Just because in you head you seem to have associated the 97% with the 7% doesn't make it so.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/a...f9-c5f45d57a795

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/...k-lives-matter/

https://www.businessinsider.com/3-boogal...nspiracy-2020-6

And then as for who the 7% are ??

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

Jones reviewed protests in more than 140 cities and spoke with U.S. officials within the joint terrorism task force. Most of the violence, Jones said, was committed by “local hooligans, sometimes gangs, sometimes just individuals that are trying to take advantage of an opportunity.”

“There were reports of some antifa at different protests,” he concluded. “But they stood back, did not engage, certainly not in a violent way.”

Officials have arrested more than 14,000 people across 49 cities nationwide since May 27, according to a Washington Post tally of data provided by police departments and included in media reports. Thousands were arrested for low-level offenses, including curfew violations and failure to disperse.

Roughly 80 federal charges, including murder and throwing molotov cocktails at police vehicles, reveal no evidence of an antifa plot. Four people who identify with the far-right extremist “boogaloo” movement are among those facing the most serious federal charges. Asked whether anyone who identifies as antifa had been charged, Department of Justice spokesman Matt Lloyd said via email, “We do not collect statistics based on potential inspiration but on unlawful acts according to statute.”

The Richmond stuff has also been addressed in a previous post. Essentially the Government threw out White Supremacy on misinformation. BLM protesters even claimed the people they were referring to were not supremacists. Further, it was also stated, this group left before the rioting even began.

Secondly, I would do a lot more research on the Boogaloo Boys. There was an article mentioned about Boogaloo Boys being arrested for working with Hamas and names were provided. The Boogaloo member was a self- described "left anarchist". The Boogaloo Boys ARE a problem. But I think calling them white supremacist is not entirely accurate.

So a small handful are white supremacists? Thats not "tons"

The majority are BLM. Their organaization publically supports looting and violence.

Anyone saying different is in total denial.

BLM are a textbook terrorist organization.

I heard one of the 'Boogaloo boys' was claiming he wasn't or some such ... but there have been 4 arrests of 'Boogaloo Boys' ...

My point being that in answer to what Eve posted - as many people associated with 'Alt Right' have been associated with the violence as there has been 'Alt Left' or whatever you want to call them. I will maintain - as reported - the vast majority of the violence is opportunistic hoodlums and thugs. I said that when it first happened, I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

See - this is flat wrong. and to echo your own post and word - prove it.

Do I need to get out the video of the BLM leader supporting looting as reparations, or can you google it for yourself?

It fits the narrative of Trumplandia.

Wow.

But would those violent protesters "spawn" if they didn't have "peaceful" protests as cover?

Many want to "defund/abolish the police" to get rid of bad police. Why is there no "defund"/"abolish" the protesters to get rid of bad protesters or how is that thinking really different?

Any idea of the percentage of police that have killed someone? I've been looking, but I've not been able to track something along those lines down. How do you think it would compare to 7%? I'm curious to see someone do the math and "see just what a small percentage that is."


I think both can and should do better. I think using arguments that could be directed the other way fairly easily is hypocritical.

I'm really getting tired of the change the narrative complaint/defense. There is no single right/true/pure narrative. It's like you're writing a book with a first person limited narrator who thinks he's omniscient. In reality, more voices/perspectives leads to a more complete picture. Sometimes (or perhaps it's really always) those perspectives are flawed, but it's on both sides. Everyone has their blind spots.

edit: I've come across 1099 civilians killed in 2019 here

and more than 800,000 "police" officers here

If we treat it as if there were no officers that were responsible for multiple deaths and went 1099/800000 the percentage would be around .13% (assuming my brain is functioning at the moment)

I'm not trying to wipe away that wrongness of killing unarmed men by police (and those numbers were all civilian casualties...I think... does seem kinda low), but your 7% argument is pretty weak in comparison.

The following response is not directed at you, mgh, but a general point to this simplistic, binary thinking when it comes to these groups being either right or left, politically. Namely, Antifa and the Boogaloo Boys. Although I firmly believe we've seen more "left" leaning individuals if we want to call them that for the sake of what has been discussed in this thread, which are terms I have fallen victim to at times. And I say left because a group like Antifa is calling anything "right" as fascist, which is both ironic and hypocritical. But within the current climate I would say align more left than right at this point....meaning "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" for the time being. I'll explain what I mean more about this below.

From what I've been looking at regarding the Boogaloo Boys, which has its roots as an alt-right/supremacist group, no doubt, has evolved into more of a libertarian, anti-government/police establishment. The predominant libertarian angle of this group is frustrating to me, as it aligns with my personal political beliefs as a self-described libertarian. These people are latching onto protests (good intentioned ones or nefarious ones) with the mindset of promoting anti-police rhetoric, protection against perceived systemic violence and aggression, and to encourage rioting. There is no doubt about it in my mind. I think I've said as much in these discussions. The same goes for Antifa, but I submit, have been more active in the organization, spreading, marketing, of these anti- government, anti-police, anti-capitalism actions and rhetoric. People in cities are beginning to replicate their actions and tactics they've worked on long before 2020 and what we've seen recently.

Again, the funny thing is people think Antifa is some left group promoting the liberal/progressive/democratic agenda and "protecting" us from fascism. They are not. They are extreme radicals and anarchists that want to eliminate the current status quo, of yes, even liberal democracy. That's where these two groups converge and have been, to some degree, working together to an extent during some, but not all, of these riots/protests. Sorta like....the enemy of my enemy is my friend again. These two organizations believe the solution is to burn the entire government to ashes and start all over with some utopian Marxist environment in mind. Kinda like a phoenix bird rising from the ashes metaphor.

So I suppose considering the current binary political climate, and people's trained minds today, is to say Antifa is considered far-left, but I don't necessarily see the Boogaloo Boys, also anarchists like Antifa, as a collective far-right group. Not sure if alt-center or far-center is a used term but I see them more like that at this point in time. And they are aligned for the same cause mentioned above.

Now, are there alt-right individuals joining in on some of these things? Sure, it would be silly to say these people are sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. But again, I think the vast majority fall in-line with the destructive thinking mentioned earlier of a complete government upheaval and they are the MUCH bigger issue.

Actually if you've been reading the thread, I and many others you seem to be referencing agree that it's a small percentage of police that are the biggest issue here. I do not think you should just be dismissing that. Peaceful protests are guaranteed under the constitution. So no, you will not see those who believe in the constitution calling for an end to something that the constitution plainly says is a right of all Americans.

And while if you only look at people being killed by the police, maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. There is also the disparity in sentencing. Blacks being pulled over for no reason. Blacks being three times more likely to be killed by the police. The bigger picture is equal justice for every American.

As for "defunding the police". There are those on the fringe that actually believe this in is its literal sense. But as has been covered over and over and over again, that is more poor messaging than anything else.

Let me explain what the vast majority actually mean....

A city is not the federal government. As such they simply can not just print money to spend. They have budget constraints with which they must work within. As such, those resources must be spread about to confront their issues.

As of now, the police are burdened with doing things they were never intended to, nor are well equipped to deal with. Things such as the homeless problem, addiction and the mentally ill. In many cases they have no choice because the resources simply are not there for those issues.

What that creates is a large part of the police budget going to things they are neither equipped to deal with nor do they wish to be burdened dealing with. Locally in the Nashville area where i live, the county sheriff said that about 30% of his jail was filled with mentally ill prisoners. Prisoners he wish had other places to go. He also mentioned the addiction issue and the homeless issue he is spending money on.

So "defunding the police" actually means to take the budget police are spending on such issues and diverting those funds to places that can and should be dealing with them. In Nashville about 2.4 million dollars of the police budget was diverted to a new mental health facility where the police can take the mentally ill and get them the treatment they need. That did not pay the entire bill for the new facility, but it certainly helped.

The process time when the police drop patients off to this facility they said takes about 10 minutes. Can you imagine the money the police and the jail are saving by this?

So if we take the extremists out of the debate and look at a reasonable middle ground, it all makes sense. It's what the vast majority are actually looking for. We could take extremists from both sides and paint a very ugly portrait. Or, we could look at what the vast majority are saying and have a reasonable conversation.

One idiot.

That wasn't the discussion.

You stated all the violence was perpetrated by BLM ... not that you could find one moron advocating violence.

It's good - I'll wait for the proof.

That one idiot is a leader who organizes the protests/riots.

But by all means continue to be in denial.

Sure. She must be the most influencial person in the world. Amazing.

Vers pointed out that BLM has a 'Marxist' web site and has an "Official" website that is whack. And I think most realize that 99% of people who support "BLM" as an idea/ideology/protest to help protect a segment of society who are killed at the hands of cops disproportionately have absolutely nothing to do with this lady or what she thinks she represents. . . . She most certainly is not organizing all the protests. She most certainly isn't organizing all the riots.

But feel free to believe what you will. I'll wait for proof that the BLM are being arrested in larger numbers than the Alt Right in these riots & violence.

She is the organizer for Chicago protests/riots. But denial is your thing so have at it.

https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-chicago-defends-looting-reparations-1524502

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/blm-organizer-who-called-looting-reparations-doubles-down/

Also Vers is correct. BLM was founded by 3 self admitted marxists. That is a matter of fact. By definition they want to overthrow the country and become a communist country.

So, 99% of the followers look past the stance and viewpoints of the founders, leaders and organizers to something better? Maybe the same could be said of Trump supporters.

There is no denial. This was the issue I was contending. I said the majority of violence was opportunistic thugs. I said of those caught and prosecuted for that violence, there have been as significant number reported as having Alt Right affiliation as Left affiliations. As was stated in the report I linked.

I also said the overwhelming majority who showed support for BLM and still do have no connection or affiliation to the whacko you showed being interviewed or the 'Official' BLM website.

I have not denied that there is a BLM website with claims of being Marxist. Or that some on there (including the woman interviewed) might want to support violence. . . . . what I think is silly is the idea that the website or that woman can organize all the protests and all the violence.

Back to your claim - where is the proof that the majority are BLM as opposed to just opportunistic criminals?

Weird how that works, isn't it? I'm called racist because I voted for trump over hillary, and I'm also told since I did that, I support and follow everything trump does and says.

Yet a leader of blm calls for continued looting and rioting, yet "99% of blm" don't support that leader, supposedly.

Odd, isn't it?

Sorry - there are 10's of Millions of people in support of BLM. All over the world. In virtually every 1st world country. . . .

Because this site on the internet made a claim of being the "Official" BLM website and the "founders ..... suddenly it's true.

Got it. Y'all think those 10's of millions follow a "leader. Got it.

Fit's nicely into your agenda I guess.

So a leader of blm calls for looting and rioting and youre in denial that its happening. Despite endless videos showing black people rioting and looting in the name of blm. At blm organized "protests" lead by blm leaders who support looting?

You might need meds for your kind of delusional.

At best that women was middle management

Fair enough. There's a few logical people on here.

But no, it wasn't just 1. Plus, even ocd said I'd hand my wife and daughter to trump..........insinuating I support........eh, not getting into it.