DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jury still out on Frye, Savage in same boat

Why is this thread starting to sound like the end of an eposode of GI Joe?

We suck. (I'm drunk as [censored], FYI)

And your talking to a homer who thought we'd be 9-7 this year. To me, we're [censored] sideways. Moreso than Savage or Romeo can fix.

What turned Brees into a decent QB to a pro-bowl QB was improved OL play.

I was here.. he did not change in a phone booth, nor the selection of Rivers did not push him. 5 new starters on the OL made a difference.

QB coach says he's certain Frye's got `it'
Browns' Rip Scherer happy with progress but says he knows what needs to happen
By Patrick McManamon
BEREA - Trent Dilfer had spent two weeks with Charlie Frye a year ago when he went to Browns quarterback coach Rip Scherer.

``This guy has got it,'' Dilfer told Scherer.

A year and eight games later, Scherer sees the same things in Frye that Dilfer did. In an interview Friday, Scherer said that Frye has progressed well this season and that he has no doubt that the Browns will win with Frye at quarterback.

Scherer's confidence in Frye was unwavering.

Q: Can you asses Frye's progress this season?

all part of the growing process with him.

But you couldn't ask for a more anxious, amenable guy who wants to learn, who's trying to get better, who is coachable, is teachable.

Q: Is there any way you look at him and say he's not far enough along in this area, that he's behind in some ways?

A: Probably in most ways he's further ahead. Again, I can only compare him to him. His vision, his understanding of the offense, his command with our offensive players, his leadership... he grows every week.

He sees more. He sees things well. He sees the field. It's just a matter of being in those situations and doing it and being successful doing it and gaining more confidence.

Q: People will say they don't see that when they watch the games.

A: There's 11 guys playing at one time. I think that's a factor. Obviously the quarterback always gets more credit than he deserves when things go well and he gets more blame than he deserves. You understand that. That's the nature of the position.

You look at him statistically; obviously we've thrown too many interceptions, but how many of those have hit our guys first? Or have been deflection interceptions? His percentage is not where we want it to be, but it's above 61 percent.

Q: Where would you want it to be?

A: He wants it to be at 70 (percent). Obviously we have to get the touchdown-interception ratio reversed. We try hard to do that, but at times some things happen out of your control. Very few of his interceptions -- the one against Oakland, there was one against New Orleans -- have been bad-decision interceptions. For the most part they have either been a deflected ball or a poor throw.

If he was making a lot of poor-decision interceptions, I'd really be concerned. But he's not.

Q: Does he run too much? Is he comfortable in the pocket?

A: I think he's comfortable in the pocket. A percentage of the time he's out of the pocket, he's flushed. He's doing it for a reason. What I would like to see him do, and what he'd like to do better himself, is once he's out not take the sack. We've talked about that. He realizes that.

He's trying so hard to make a play and to keep a play alive. Sometimes, as competitive as he is, it's hard to say, `Hey it's time to throw this one out of bounds and live to line up again.' Again, it's part of the maturity process.

Yet you don't want to take that competitiveness away, that same thing that everybody loved early on. It's still there. And sometimes it creates and fuels a lot of those problems.

Q: He gets hit a lot. How much more can he take?

A: He and I have talked about that. That's why he's got to ditch some of those balls. He understands that, too. The wear and tear on his body over a long period of time, it becomes a cumulative thing. It starts to affect your technique, your delivery. Again, it's part of his learning process.

And you balance that out with his fight, his desire to make a play. You don't want to take that away from him either. Because that's part of his personality. That's part of his persona as a quarterback.

Q: Are the receivers helping him in terms of precision of routes?

A: Yeah, I think they are. I don't think that's an issue. People are looking to create things, but that's not an issue. Everybody is fighting to help him.

Q: What's his next step?

A: First of all, we have to win. Second, I'd like to see him put a couple of turnover-free games back to back to back. Until last week, knock on wood, we haven't had many sack-fumbles, which we had last year. And that one (against San Diego) was kind of a fluke. His knee hit the ball.

But first of all, the whole thing is about winning. That's how the quarterback position is evaluated and he understands that.

Q: He was criticized a lot after the San Diego Chargers game. Did that catch you off guard?

A: You know, I wasn't really aware of it. I asked him about it and he wasn't aware of it. He's a mature guy and he's really even-keeled. I think he understands that's the nature of the business. When you sign on to play this position, you take that. Because when we're winning, when we start to win like we will and like he will lead us to, then he's going to get way more of the credit than he deserves. You understand that's part of it, too.

I think it's a poem by Rudyard Kipling that says you treat those two impostors both the same. That's what I try to remind him of all the time. Criticism and applause, if you get sucked into either one of them, you're going to be ruined.

Q: I noticed you say `when he wins,' not if.

A: No, no if. And I am not giving you the party line. I truly believe he will be successful. Some guys got `it' and some guys don't. He has got `it.' And he will win.''

Brownies . . .

? Cornerback continues to be a tough position for the Browns. Daylon McCutcheon had microfracture surgery on his left knee Oct. 25 in California. That surgery is delicate, but McCutcheon said doctors told him all went well.

? To match last season's 6-10 record, the Browns have to split their final eight games. Those games include trips to Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Baltimore, and home games against Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Kansas City.

? If Reuben Droughns is going to get going, this is his month. Droughns has averaged 104 yards per game for the Denver Broncos and the Browns the past two Novembers.

? The Chargers honored past stars last Sunday in San Diego, but Kellen Winslow Sr. was not among those wearing powder blue jerseys on the field. Apparently Winslow did not leave on great terms. He's in the hall of fame, but his number is still being worn by Malcolm Floyd.

? Braylon Edwards on the criticism of Frye this week: ``It's the NFL. Guys take criticism every day. It's how you respond to that criticism.''


[img]http://[image]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/thepitdog/topdawg.jpg[/img][/image]

Good Read...



If this is what these guys are really seeing on film Frye should be fine...It's all a matter of adjusting to the speed of the game...Which is what's happening here after so few starts...The lights just need to come on...



Jeezuz...Good flippin' luck...How bout 65???...That folks is a short ball control passing attack...

And by the way...This along with Manuwai and Long will help immensely...

1. Arizona Cardinals
2. Detroit Lions
3. Miami Dolphins
4. Cleveland Browns
5. Houston Texans
6. Oakland Raiders
7. Pittsburgh Steelers
8. Tampa Bay Bucs
9. Tennessee Titans
10. Green Bay Packers
11. San Francisco 49ers

4) Cleveland Browns- Adrian Peterson- RB, Oklahoma

Analysis: I got to say I like the mentality of the new Cleveland Browns. Run the ball until it gets boring. Ruben Droughns is a great down hill runner, but he lacks homerun threat ability. Adrian Peterson can still run hard, between the tackles, but gives Cleveland a threat to take it to the house on every play.

Adrian Peterson is a game breaker. He has great vision, great awareness and insane cutting ability. He has the speed to turn the corner but the toughness to gain the hard 3 and shorts.

Droughns could be an elite fullback and help give the Browns a 1-2 punch that would make it very difficult for teams to stop. Adrian can provide the presence that Cleveland has been missing since Jim Brown.

http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/mock_draft.htm

I thought the article was suspect as I kept reading , then I hit this !
.......................................................................................................
: Are the receivers helping him in terms of precision of routes?

A: Yeah, I think they are. I don't think that's an issue. People are looking to create things, but that's not an issue. "

.......................................................................................................

.. Thats when it becme Berea PR. & nothing more !

Dude, can you do us a favor?

Please quit starting so many new threads on Charlie Frye. There are several Frye threads on the board. You have started at least three separate Frye threads. It's pushing good threads down the board.

Would you please add new articles to existing Frye threads? Thanks.

Charger--------there is a lot of truth in what you say, but nothing is ever so simplistic.

There were other factors involved:

---Brees was entering his third year and he matured.

---Marty told Brees that he would not play if he turned the ball over. Brees himself, credits that mindset for his improved play.

---I think Brees is a natural leader and a gritty competitor. Think about what he does in the weight room. You know what I'm talking about, right? Anyway, drafting Rivers probably did provide added incentive to Brees. That is only natural.

I do agree w/you about the OL, and I think you know by now how I feel about OL play, but there are other factors involved in Brees play.

No problem , i guess it does kinda clutter it up when theres a new article every day about the same person .

[img][image]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/thepitdog/topdawg.jpg[/img][/image]

What would we expect the QB coach to say <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Honestly, the problem with this offense doesn't rest entirely on Fryes shoulders. Everyone of us know that he's young and still learning and that there is NO DOUBT mistakes will be made.. Lack of a running game, receivers that can't catch on a consistent basis, pass protection etc etc,,, all play a part in the mess we call our Offense.

Until all of that addressed, we won't be a juggernaut on O!

Your right racer. Everybody knows Charlie does not have great overall QB skills. Hell I would be upset and worried if RAC had come out and said Charlie's got a laser rocker arm, accuracy like kosar, and scrambling abilty like vick <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

I think it's more important the coaches see the problem so they can coach it out of t
him.

Everyone is missing the big picture. Romeo has completely changed his philosophy of not allowing the coaches to talk to the press. Seeing the davidson interview and now this interview is huge!!!!!!!!!!

I think Romeo is stepping off being a Belliache clone and becoming his own man. I like it.

Now for the article. When it clicks it clicks. It took Peyton a year and a half of starting before u saw him lose that hectic, got to do it now look. Big Ben has made everyone forget that it does take time.

It simply has not clicked for Frye. When it does then we will know. When you see him show that patience and he is still struggling, then we have problems. Whenwe see him show that patience and he is completing passes, then we know he is an NFL quarterback. For now it is still a wait and see and we may not see it till next year.

Unfortunately, this is the single biggest difference between a good QB and a guy who winds up on the bench for a few years before finding his "life's work" in another field.

Some succeed, and other don't. Which one will Frye be? Who knows. I will say that the FO better find a veteran guy to bring in for next year just in case. Members of other units on the team will only buck up an ineffective QB for so long before they start to resent being "the problem". I think this happened with Couch .... and judging from the sheer number of former OL still starting in the NFL tody, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't entirely their fault.

You may be right, but I think you're reading to much into it.

Davidson Interview = what RAC did with his other Coordinators last season.... each got one interview.

This interview = shut the media up about the QB by letting them talk to the QB coach to dispel all the B.S. the media is trying to spew.

Very true.

I was sold on Charlie earlier in the year. However, I have recognized some problems in his game recently.

I will not blame Charlie for all the problems on offense. We have many problems. However, I think it would be wise for the Browns to have a backup plan.

One thing I noticed about Brees was that entering year three it seems as if his arm strength significantly improved. I don't know if he improved his mechanics in the offseason, if he just felt more comfortable stepping up to throw with the improved o-line, hit the weight room hard or if he hit the juice hard. I hoping for similar improvement from year 2 to year 3 for Frye.

As for the NFLDraftBlitz.com Mock draft article, I like the comments about our run the ball mentality. Not sure if it is true or not but I like the idea of runnung over people game after game.

As for drafting Peterson, has he ever had an injury free season? If he can't do it at Oklahoma how can we think he will do it hear playing 4 games a year against Pitt and Balt?

[color:"red"]"why we advocated signing Vinny Testaverde. Testaverde could tell Frye how to counter what defenses are doing, but Savage decided to stick with Ken Dorsey and Derek Anderson."

[color:"orange"]I see this as a basic - we are smarter than Savage article regarding why Testeverde would have been a brilliant move as they suggested but Savage instead opted not to pursue that venue <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Of course Frye is a QB in review. There are many things I like about him...many things I don't.

But there are few QBs who will do well in this league without a running game - even the great ones - even the great ones with a great OL still need a running game to get it to championship level.

I don't think Savage is on the hot seat for this decision at all...especially when Randy was more than gaga over Frye. I don't think Savage will stand still and let Frye be the QB in 07 if he isn't deserved of the position. But the jury is not out.

Stats are stats...no you can't blame it all on the OL but having a running game sure would be nice!!! Frye had a bad game against SD - who btw are the 2nd best D in the NFL - and for that matter Frye has faced a good to very good NFL D every week this year. Thats with an OL that wasn't firing on all cylinders (for whatever the reasons) and a running game that was non-existant. But these so called experts already know they are so smart cause the wind isn't blowing CF's way after this last game and like the pariah that they are , are ready to pounce on him and Savage too. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
JMHO

So the thought is to Sign Vinny so he can teach Fryeon how to counter defenses. Well what is the Qb coach doing? Instead of paying Vinny $500,000/year to be a backup Qb why not pay him $150,000/year to be the Qb coach?

[color:"orange"]exactly...and guess what? after 18 years or so at QB Vinny still wasn't the brightest wick on the candle - he ain't no Steve DeBerg <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

As for Savage his master plan was to have Dilfer there for Frye - so these bozo's should get off his case regarding this matter. He had a plan, but Dilfer couldn't find himself as the Mentor role not with his differences with Mo apparently but that wasn't Savage's plan and dealt with it the way he could.

And Savage isn't blind and stuck on Frye come hell or high water as the media thinks. If something better was out there for us he would have went and got it. Vinny and Collins simply weren't it - He did try to obtain Harrington though as a viable alternative. So he isn't locked with Frye in stone...just playing it out and will rationally review all the variables after the season is over with.

JMHO

Why has the Frye bashing stopped?

Come on Frye haters let's hear it.

Just an FYI

I have yet to see one single Frye hater post on this board. What I have seen is a few posters getting their panties in a bunch whenever somebody does not drool all over him.

I think its more of the opposite. Whenever Frye has a bad game everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

Frye got a pass the 1st part of the season, unlike everybody else on the team. He still needs more time to prove himself one way or the other, but he has been playing long enough now that he is not immune to being discussed.

My answer was simplistic

... Brees sat on the Bench in 01. Brees showed good progression in year 02 when the Chargers were 8-8. In 03, Brees and the Chargers struggled with OL play, and Brees tried to do too much, hence the int's and fumbles that resulted in his benching.

I never saw the maturity that you speak of .. I always thought that Brees did a pretty credible job as a QB, even when he was put in Martys doghouse. As a QB he is a good decision maker, with decent mobility and high accuracy. He is a fierce competitor. The only complaint against him is that he does not have the canon for an arm. But, he is a QB that improves a team.

The strength thing happend after his breakout year of 04. His attempt to better himself.

To me this has parallels to the current Frye situation, although to be honest, the scrutiny is much greater on Frye than it ever was on Brees. Brees was sat for a year. Frye is playing now. Oh and by the way, Frye does not have LT.

I think that until the OL play improves and the running game improves, Frye will contiue to stuggle because he is a competitor.

[color:"white"]

It hasn't, but has continued to this point because it's warranted.

Now, did we win the game today? Yes. Did Frye make some good throws? Yes.

But Frye made a bad play with the fumble at the half, he made a very poor decision to try and force the ball into Winslow after he'd made that amazing long catch and run, and he still locked onto receivers, and held onto the ball too long which could have been a safety. In fact, while it wasn't a safety, he pinned the team at the 1, causing Z to have to rush his kick, resulting in an easy Rossum return that setup a TD. So while Frye made some good plays, he also made some very bad ones, and if he doesn't stop being a turnover machine he's not going to be starting here much longer.

Nothing said there is an embelishment. We won the game, but that isn't all that counts, and Chuck certainly didn't do enough to silence those who offer legitimate criticism.[/color]

I thought that Frye did somewhat better in some areas ..... like the head fake/pump fake on the deep pass to Winslow ..... but then he reverted to bad habits when he locked dead on JJ. (stared him down before trying the fade in the end zone, which brought the safety over, all but killing that play)

I was encouraged, somewhat, in that we seemed to remember that there is a middle of the field, and it's often been wide open ..... and also that Frye stepped up in the pocket (in the 1st half anyway) instead of running away from plays. In the 2nd half, some of that went away, and he ran backwards to roll out too often for my liking. Frye overpowered the ball on a couple of those early deep throws after stepping up ..... I think because he's so used to trying to throw on the run in a mechanically unsound fashion. I have a hard time telling whether or not he has an NFL arm because his own footwork/mechanics often sabotage him.

Frye did take better care of the ball, as far as interceptions go, and really didn't have those "almost" picks of a week ago .... but fumbles/pocket awareness are still a concern.

[color:"orange"]CF definately showed improvement which is a good thing. He looked like he was trying not to lock onto WRs, gave pump fakes, showed good decisions.

If you notice also the OL did a good job in giving him adequate protection...no not Manning type OL protection. But adequate is enough to provide an environment for CF to grow and learn in.

It wasn't so much that the stats were better. It was how they were better and it was obvious that CF made a concerted effort to get better in areas that were recently lacking. This is good news. There might be little steps back...as long as he makes bigger steps forward that is good.

One other note. I haven't seen one QB in the NFL that looks good with constant pressure and combine that with a sucky running game. Its hard to look good CF is not an exception. What we got to do is see his improvements and make sure he don't retard himself cause of the environment.

JMHO

OverToad, now critique Droughns, like you do Frye.

Oh wait, you can't. Because everything is Frye's fault. It's Frye's fault Droughns fumbled. It's Frye's fault Droughns averages 2 yards a carry. It's Frye's fault Braylon dropped another ball. It's Frye's fault that Frye had a 109 QB Rating against the Falcons, yet Droughns still couldn't run the ball.

Now go blame Frye for Droughns averaging 2 yards a carry again.


OverToad you are why Frye has 3 wins on the road and only 2 at home. It's fans like you why the Browns stink at home.

When we had Peterson, you wanted Couch
When we had Couch, you wanted Holcomb
When we had Holcomb, you wanted Garcia
When we had Garcia, you wanted Dilfer
When we had Dilfer, you wanted Frye
When we have Frye, you want Quinn

It's fans like you why the Browns play better on the road than they do at home.

[color:"white"]I know what you're saying Eo, but Frye needs to continue to develop despite what's around him. Carr grew despite his team and Frye needs to do the same. His line doesn't have anything to do with locking onto receivers, fumbling, or holding onto the ball too long almost causing a safety.

Now, just something that has always caught my eye but I've been hesitant to talk about because how some idiot will inevitably freak out and call it bashing. Is it just me, or does Frye's release seem odd? It's almost as though he's pushing the ball instead of throwing it. I wonder if that's a developed release because of his hands or something else. I may just be seeing things because of how his pads effect his throw. It's less a criticism and more a curiousity.[/color]

But you give Droughns a pass, why?

How many years has Carr been in the league compared to Frye?

My mistake above
When we have Frye, you want Carr



Back to his hands again. The hands that are MUCH bigger than yours, and average size for a NFL QB.


Now go play up Droughns as the second coming of Jim Brown.

[color:"red"] Is it just me, or does Frye's release seem odd? It's almost as though he's pushing the ball instead of throwing it. [/color]

YOU'RE BASHING HIM!!!!!!!!STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!
Actually I notice he pushes it when he doesn't get his feet set or he releases it like a shotput..more of the arm and not the wrist.
When he sets squarely and and snaps the wrist , it travels with more velocity.

I've noticed that too and it really is the only thing that bugs me about Frye.
I just don't get that warm-n-fuzzy feeling when I see him shot-putting the ball... but that's not every pass, so it's not that big a deal.

If you had watched the whole game you would have seen an improvement in all phases of his game. Did he hold onto the ball to long and almost get a safety? Yes. He also was very good during the rest of the game at throwing away the ball and getting out of the pocket when he had a chance to avoid a sack.

One game doesn't make it all better but the improvement was there. I think all you have to go by was what you saw of the second half. He was put in very bad situations because of extremely poor field position. We tried to run the ball series after series putting him under a lot of pressure on third downs. In my opinion putting him in the pocket on third in long was a mistake. Frye did have time but he has shown he is not quick enough to make multiple reads. If you roll him out he has no chance of getting hit for a safety and it would make it easier to make a couple of quick reads. If nothing is there he would have had an oppurtunity to make a play with his feet.

You may think he should be making his reads faster, I really don't know. I feel he is still young and we should be helping him by playing to his strengths.

[color:"white"]Your questions are strange. Normally, I wouldn't bother answering, but maybe they are honest if nothing else.

Because Droughns is a proven player having rushed for 1200 yards on two different teams, the 2nd being ours which wasn't good, because Carr developed, and despite your incorrect inference, what I said was that Carr continued to develop which is what Frye needs to do (not comparing the current Carr to the current Frye), and I measured my hands when we drafted Frye, and his were the exact same size as mine, and I have issues with throwing an NFL ball, and I did QB in high school. I had no issues with a college ball. I had issues when I got my hands on an NFL ball a few years ago.[/color]

You got a crush on Charlie or what ? Newsflash..Joe Montana he is not . Nothing wrong with questioning if he can be the Q.B. we need and it is questioning not bashing that is going on . He needs to be smarter player and the question for me at least is he capable of being smarter? I don't know the man personally but seems to me like it is taking a long time to correct seemingly simple mistakes. Could be just me though.

[color:"white"]I watched the botched hail-mary where he failed to get rid of the ball, then watched the 2nd half. The only thing I believe he improved upon was not throwing the pick, but that wasn't because he didn't make a dumb throw to Winslow.

Improvement isn't going to show on a game-to-game basis. It's going to show over several games. Any player can look good one day and bad the next. He needs to show that he won't hold the ball and fumble, or hold the ball at his own goalline.

My issue is personified by his statement in the other forum. To paraphrase, he says he didn't know where he was at, he thought he had more time, and didn't grasp the situation. That isn't improving the issues that matter.

It sounds like I'm taking shots at him. That will depend on where one sits on Frye <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> However, to me, most QB's in this league are cognizent of the fact they are on the goalline, and know not to hold onto the ball. It's constructive criticism, nothing more. Yes, he threw the ball away. I saw that play. But just because he does it once doesn't mean he's learning. He needs to do it every time from here on out to prove that. Besides, he had 2 more fumbles. That's 17 turnovers in 9 games, and that's just plain unacceptable. In terms of developing and progressing, that has to stop.[/color]

j/c

Didn't think this was a "basher" case with Charlie, but now I'm not so sure with the "moving bar" syndrome surfacing. You guys wanted improvement - now its consistency over several games? <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

This thread didn't even have time to drop out of context before the criteria started changing.

Giving the kid a hard time about a performance like yesterday does nothing but undermine the arguments against him that ARE valid.

If I'm being critical of Frye, a growing NFL QB, I give the kid credit for a solid game. I commend him on his showing improvements in some key areas of his game and I officially inform him that the bar has been raised. Regressing is not an option. He needs to maintain that level of play and continue to improve over the next 7 games.

You keep asking for improvement, but when you get it the focus is still on a hand-full of plays he could have done better on. <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

No mention of him using a pump fake to freeze the safety for a long completion.
No mention of him balling up in the 4th to get us into field-goal range.
No mention of him getting rid of the ball under pressure in the 4th to keep us in field goal range.
No mention of him finally having a game with few to no forced balls.
Perfect - heck no. Better - without a doubt.

This whole debate just lost most of its intrigue.

Jury's still out on the kid where most are concerned, but its becoming apparent that some just aren't going to be happy with the kid at QB.