DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons

Stats never tell the entire story. I don't think there is much doubt that PFF's grades are far more comprehensive than other raw stats. I posted a link earlier in how they grade QBs. Check it out for yourself and see. I am not saying they are full proof, but again, they are far more comprehensive than raw stats.

His performance seems to go down in the 3rd and 4th quarters, what is still not clear is that because we are running 1st and 2nd down, and then when he does have to pass, it tends to be 3rd and long?

4 of his 7 sacks have been in the 3nd half, and 3 of his 4 INTs.

What's different you ask?

How about having the lead in the second half? We've had the lead starting the 3rd quarter in the past 4 games, and not just the lead, we've been up 2 scores.

Up 21-13 vs the Bengals. (1 score)
Up 17-7 vs the Football Team.
Up 31-14 vs the Cowboys.
Up 20-10 vs the Colts.

I read the gameday thread and saw everyone wanted to run run run. I'm screaming at the tv that we need to keep the throttle down.

In each of those games, we let the other team back in the game, coming within one score to lead or tie.

Keep scoring points!! Late in the games it's been run run run/pass to try to kill clock and its burned us. I'd imagine ToP in second half is skewed toward our opponent. But I don't know for sure, haven't looked it up.

"Baker holding us back" and Baker is the "weak link" is the most ridiculous thing on this board right now. It's always going to be something until Baker falters and someone can say, "I told ya so."

Please enjoy these times, stop the hate.

Thanks.

I hold a lot of store in the way PFF grades players performance. But I will agree that these numbers do not seem to reflect what we saw last year from Baker and what we are seeing this year from Baker.

I will mention something I have alluded to before - Baker is clearly being coached to change what he does. [1] We know they wanted to change his footwork. [2] I believe it is clear to most that he is being asked to be way more conservative with throwing the ball - not only by scheme and play calling, but with decisions on where/when to throw [3] I also believe most would agree his decision to stay, climb or run from the pocket is also an area that's being worked on . . . . As a result I think we have seen some progress in terms of games without turnovers and the appearance of Baker being a "game manager" - I think we've seen some plays where he has stayed in rather than run from the pocket ... but I also think we've seen that he's probably not playing loose or instinctively. These changes are going to take time to adopt so they are second nature.

In short the changes and coaching is going to make some aspects of his game worse before it all gets better. jmo. The things that everyone is concerned with - reading what the D does after the snap - speed of progression - has to be hampered by having to think about some of these other things. It doesn't mean he's going to definitely speed up or improve in these areas by quantum leaps. But it also means the book isn't written yet.

Precisely.
If Baker was holding us back, we wouldn't have the electric plays we see in the first half of games.
The player hasn't changed in the second half, the offense has.

I am not surprised at all by the grade.

The Browns have had leads in the games and are working to run out the clock and secure the win.

A touchdown means you give the ball back to the other team. Ask the Chargers about what scoring a Touchdown means when you then have to give the ball back to Brees.

The sample size decreases. There are few plays within 7. The Browns have been up by more than 7 for most of the 4th quarter.

Statistics like this are useful, but have to be understood in context. The games are being won early.

Lights out for Baker in the second quarter.

They call it garbage time stats when a lot a yards are put up at the end of the game when the outcome has been determined. We are not in garbage time except for the Baltimore fiasco.

A solid game plan in the fourth quarter has been labeled a trust issue.

The fact we have this thread as a "should we cut or keep Baker?" is absolutely preposterous. I know mgh didn't intend this, but some individuals just can't help themselves...

It feels like some people in here are ready to anoint him as the greatest QB ever as a 1st ballot HoFer...

Then we also have others in here circling the wagons saying he needs to be on a short leash and we should consider shopping him.

Some of you just don't know how to enjoy a surprise season, do you?

Would like to see some of you during the Kosar years. He's no HOF QB but he got the job done. I wish some of you could just enjoy that, but I guess some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

I'm not sure where I stand on Baker. I know he's winning us games but he's also showing signs of needing improvement. Keep him and focus our scouting on LBs and CBs for the future. QB is truly the least of our worries.

That's a good point ... can you imagine how quickly 4th Q stats would be trounced if we were losing but had good 4th Q stats?

J/C

We seem to go into a shell in the 2nd half. Perhaps it’s a result of being ahead by so much (can you imagine us saying this haha) .. or us not being able to adjust to their defensive changes. Who knows.

When we are scripted it seems to be when we’re at our best still

I'm not really sure what you guys are saying here. The Dallas game should've had a large stretch of garbage time, but wasn't because the Browns, by not being able to move the ball and not slowing down (much less stopping) the Cowboys, almost allowed a record-breaking comeback. The Cowboys pulled to within 3 at one point (iirc).

Not doing a good enough job of putting away games is an issue (one that hasn't bitten us yet, but still an issue). Baker must and should be able to hit his throws when we're up late in games. Defenses are focused on our run game.

I'm not saying he should be replaced or anything. I've seen improvement within his currently limited role in this offense. I'm just saying his 4th quarter performance has generally yielded more criticisms than complements.

I don't think anyone is saying he should be replaced. It's just another false narrative to help win a stupid board argument.

I hope so too Bone. KS still has a lot to teach Baker. KS has done more for us on offense in the short time hes been here than anyone else in the last 20 years and it might be only the tip of the iceberg!! Baker can and should benefit greatly from him.

Interesting perspective.

In the game day thread I have made the same comment a couple of times ... this week's game against Pit is going to be interesting / telling. Pit have seen him 3 times. I am sure if they will prep hard and well for Cleveland and Baker. Hoping to see more growth.

Relevant for this thread:

Looks like he's trying to get the ball out quicker this year, trying to read quicker, but he might not be taking enough time. There's some footwork stuff where it looks like he's trying to get back to Kansas from Oz, but my guess is he's trying to be quicker but this actually hurts him.

It's good to see he's moved beyond the 2 second throw one read from the first two seasons but now he's struggling to read everything quick enough. I think he'll continue to grow.

Absolutely this^

I emboldened and highlighted the part that I think a lot of people seem to be overlooking.

One thing we do know about Baker is that good or bad, he's willing to trust his coaches. In 2018 we heard almost every week from guys when asked about specific plays "the coaches told us they'd line up, or they told us it would be there, and it was". In 2019, yes Baker could have done more in terms of developing himself, but I don't believe there was anything his coaches told him he should be doing that he wasn't. This year its obvious he's been working on his footwork. Its obvious he's working on staying in and stepping up in the pocket.

To me it's obvious that he is working on re-programming himself. He's also still in the early stages of running this offense. Between deciphering the defense, staying true to the play called, fighting off those old tendencies...

Baker was successful because he had a confidence in and mastery of his knowledge base, a knowledge base that was admittedly very limited.

Provided he can remain in this system, I do think he's likely to get back to that level of confidence and looseness and swagger that we saw in '18. Will we see that this year? I don't know. My hope is that we'll see it by the end of the season but I wouldn't expect it prior to the Bye.

My inexpert prediction is that as we see Baker get more comfortable and play a little more loose, we'll also see these over throws decrease.

As with everyone else, I agree Baker has a ways to improve. Stefanski seems to have a pretty good read on his players and what they can contribute. I think he's got a good handle on how he wants to bring him along.

j/c:

There are several videos out there that highlight the things I have been saying about Baker. They never get any run on here, but some off-the-cuff tweet by someone named DawgPoundDrunk or something like that ignores every other player on the team is the post that people like. LOL...………….that pretty much tells the story about objectivity.

Weren't you trying to chastise Bone the other day for "football" content?

Look - despite your claims that no-one else sees what you see, everyone (or the vast majority) see that Baker has issues and areas where he needs to improve. Like you everyone (or the vast majority) see he needs to get better at reading the D and going through his progressions ... you saying that people don't agree with that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't mean your a victim. Just me - but I think posters notice how virtually every single topic you try to bring back to some Baker deficiency or other. When others want to take into account 4 HC's in 2 1/2 years - and you use that to mock them by quoting it for WR struggles or whatever, it gets noticed. I think posters know you can't stand Baker and will remember #cantwaittillheisgone which you have never tried to rescind .... hard to claim you want the guy to succeed when you also can't wait till he is no longer a Brown. jmo

I think you pretty much nailed it highlighting that post coupled with this one here.

This is a very condescending post.

Even your attempts to promote opposing opinions belittles the opposing views. It's almost as if you're saying, "It's fine if you want to hold the wrong opinion, but I'm still correct." Stop telling everyone how they should think.


And this post isn't "making it personal." It's simply explaining to you how the rest of the board may be thinking because you obviously don't get it.


For the record, and in all aspects, Baker isn't as bad as you think.

The tweet is simply facts. Obviously the team got better in the mean time as well. You obviously look up videos to support what you think too. It still just opinion all the way around. To be truly objective, you would be posting videos of differing opinions than yours too.

In the past, it hasn't mattered who was on the team, we sucked. Baker has improved that. He also has a long way to go to be a great QB, but he is taking steps to get there, and we are winning in the mean time. As a TEAM, not only because of any one or two players.

Remember to consider the team part as well, maybe even first. Dissecting an individual has its place, at least it does for QB, because this sets the bar for performance. One metric that I believe demands consideration and it offers reliable proof is simply this: Does he make other players around him better? Do they play for him or quit on him?

BM has helped others IMO. May not show up on video, but I am certain we are not where we are without him.

j/c:

Not sure anyone is interested, but here is another very good breakdown by Jake Burns. This time, it's breaking down the Indy game.

Before I post the link, I see others are speaking for me again. I don't want to get into it w/them, but a few things that come from me......not them speaking for me.

I did write a post about Baker the person. It was three years ago. LOL. Anyway, I have actually praised Baker for his behavior this year. He is doing a much better job in that area in my opinion.

I have never said that Baker can't improve. In fact, I have pointed out areas where he has improved.

I do not think he should be benched or cut.

I do not think he stinks.

My personal feelings have nothing to do w/the analysis of how others break down Baker's film. My opinions do not influence Baker being the worst ranked qb in the 4th quarter of the NFL. My opinions have no bearing on Baker holding the ball longer than any qb in the league. Etc, etc.

Anyway...………..here is the video if anyone wants to educate themselves. I'll gladly discuss what Burns is pointing out w/anyone who wants to talk football. Btw---------there are both good and bad plays, as well as some that were hard to nail down for sure. It is NOT just a negative video. At all.


https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...day--152981317/

One thing I should add to the last post. That video shows a lot of what Stefanski is doing in regards to scheme.

Did you get a chance to watch the video I posted? It's lengthy but it's probably of the same vein of the one you shared.

Yes, I did. Very similar.

I love breaking down tape. Diam and I got together years ago and he had me break down several game tapes that he had when DA was the QB and also a couple of BQ's college games. I love that stuff. I wish I had the tech knowledge to break down tape on here to demonstrate what I am seeing.

I agreed and disagreed w/some of what both guys were saying. I thought both missed some things. Burns is really good and I'm not knocking either guy.

Both guys highlighted Baker's first throw to Landry where he rolled left and threw against the grain for a long completion. It was an incredible throw. I mean...…...incredible! The arm talent jumped off the screen on that one. Not many guys make that throw. I was just wondering if anyone else saw what I saw on that play? Neither guy mentioned it when breaking down the play. Did anyone else something else on that play? Let me give you a clue since we all can't have an quick dialogue. Is that the throw you would have made if you were the qb? Or, would you have went somewhere else w/the ball?

OBJ has beat his man and is running across the middle. Baker would have to lead him, while also giving enough touch on the ball to miss the 3 underneath guys. From the way you framed the question it would seem you think that's an easier throw ... if thrown well it could be a bigger play, but I don't know if throwing the ball with touch while running to his left is Baker's forte.

I thought the throw was actually inaccurate but I'm a tough critic. He threw it slightly behind him. LOL

His best pass was the Higgins TD. He actually looked like a top 10 QB on that pass. You can see his head swivel slightly reading very quickly what was happening then threw a perfect ball to Higgins, who looked like his third or so read.

I point out the head swivel to demonstrate that Baker normally goes through his progressions with his body. None of the great QBs do that. That tells me he's too slow to recognize his first read isn't going to be there but he's already getting himself into position to throw that pass. By the time he realizes it's not happening he's not in position to throw to his next reads and using his body to get through his progressions. This is very common for Baker.

I think the very best QBs have a sense in their head before the snap what's going to be there and what isn't. It allows them to process quickly while they are dropping back and get their body in the right position to either make the first read throw or move on.

I think Baker will get better with all of this over time with consistent coaching.

Ehh...I thought it was a marvelous throw. Seriously, I thought it was a great throw. It's not one I would recommend, but damn, that was a very difficult throw and he pulled it off.

Not sure who the receiver was who was running across the formation to the left, but he broke open quicker than Landry did and I would have throw it to that dude. I know it was not as far downfield, but it was an easier and safer throw that would have netted positive yardage.

From Browns app

Andrew Gribble

Baker Mayfield said he's feeling "sore" and was limited at Wednesday's practice as the Browns ramped up their preparations for Sunday's game at Pittsburgh.

The Browns quarterback took a hard shot during the fourth quarter of Sunday's win over Indianapolis. He was slow to get up and spent some time in the medical tent but didn't miss a snap in the 32-23 victory.

Mayfield hopes to do the same in what would be his fourth career start against the Browns' AFC North rival.

"Just one day at a time right now," Mayfield said. "Obviously, a little sore but that is why we have the rest of the week 'til game day."

Mayfield was listed with a chest injury and considered a limited participant at Wednesday's practice, the Browns' first since the team collected its fourth straight win over the Colts. He'll be re-evaluated after the practice and the team will determine how much more to put on his plate for Thursday's session.

"I think we will take it each day at a time here," Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said. "He is sore today. So, we will work through it today and then see where he is tomorrow."

During Wednesday's call with reporters, Mayfield was far more focused on how the Browns can continue their winning ways Sunday as they go for their fifth straight win. A victory over the Steelers in Pittsburgh would not only provide the Browns with a pivotal AFC North win, but also end the team's long winless streak at Heinz Field.

"Obviously, division games are always meaningful for us, but they are undefeated, we are 4-1," Mayfield said. "It is an extremely important game, but it is because it is the next one. We have to handle it that way. We are on the road in somebody else's house."

Mayfield is coming off a performance in which he shined in the first half and struggled in the second. Afterward, Mayfield lamented his two interceptions and called the game his worst of the season.

A review of the film confirmed Mayfield's instant analysis, though it was easier to stomach because it came in a winning effort.

"We are efficient when we need to be," Mayfield said. "I think that consistency can always improve. There are little things you can always improve on, but when we need to be efficient right now we have made the plays, we have made the conversions, and that is why you are seeing this streak of wins. So, we have to continue to do that but also improve on the consistency when it is not just crucial times and just help ourselves out, we do not have to make it close.

"We just need to keep getting better."

I’m going to assume these numbers are correct. They show me that Baker is improving. Now if he can improve his 4th quarter numbers I’ll be thrilled.

Yeah, I saw the underneath guy wide open but Baker went for the moneyball with that pass. It paid off. Definitely not the guy I would’ve thrown to if I was playing Madden but this is why he’s a NFL QB and I’m a school teacher.

I think the underneath guy would’ve got to the same place as Jarvis, but I get why Baker did it. Jarvis and OBJ have magnets in their hands.

I wonder if he can keep fixing his footwork at the season goes on. It seems footwork and reading are his next two hurdles. At least he’s gotten off of throwing to the first read at least. He’s soo close to where he will completely shatter the highest expectations we have of him.

One thing to keep in mind with these types of comparisons is that Baker got off to a HORRENDOUS start last season. He was throwing picks one after another, and then dialed his game way back to cut down on the turnovers. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just something to keep in mind... first half-season Baker was playing very differently than 2nd half-season Baker.

I wonder if Baker considers the "harder" throw the easier one, in this case. Baker has all the arm talent in the world, but he lacks consistency with touch and accuracy. I could see someone more fearful of a touch throw in between defenders, and would rather try to rip it to a sure-handed WR where the defender has less of a chance of getting their hands on it.

ESPN just teased a segment about Baker in the clutch. If you want to watch it, it's on "Get Up" and is on ESPN's main channel. They are at commercial break now.