DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons

P-Dawg, I do think Baker has improved this year. Let me talk about how.

--I think he is in better shape.
--Footwork is better in the pocket.
--Against Indy, he did the best job of going through his progressions since he's arrived. [my opinion.]
--He's keeping his mouth shut and not talking about things that don't need to be addressed.
--He's not bailing from the pocket as early as last year.

I think the coaching has helped Baker. I will also give Baker credit for getting in shape and for accepting the coaching this year.

I think he has quite a ways to go, but I have seen improvement.

Two things ...
1. I agree that he often lacks touch on shorter passes and seems more accurate when he can zip it. He has shown good touch sometimes, but to my mind those occasions have been on deeper balls (20+ yards) where he has to drop the ball over a defender playing a short zone to a receiver who found the soft spot in front of a safety or deep CB. jmo

2. I think this is an example of Baker reading the primary target, seeing that he is going to get open, and not looking anywhere else. He waits a beat for Landry to get the other side of the CB and then whips it in. The ball travels about 30 yards in the air and is a really great throw given Baker is throwing across to the right having sprinted to his left. He has time o set his feet and makes a great throw.

I think one of the more impressive plays is the throw to Hunt for the TD. Hunt is his 4th read - and I know the commentator suggests Baker make the 4th read from the pocket to the receiver on the whip route or whatever he called that, but the pocket is collapsing from the right. For once the pocket awareness was correct for Baker to move. If Baker Makes his 4th read from the pocket to the left and that guy turns out to be covered then Baker can't get rid of the ball instantly, he probably takes a sake. . . . so instead he rolls right and pretty much see Hunt, sees how the coverage is trailing and not looking back and makes an instant and accurate throw. We talk about speed of processing - Baker showed instant understanding of the coverage in that play/throw. jmo

I don't see the video you're talking about at that link.

Did you have an issue with their pass pro? I thought they did great considering they had their rising star go down and they were facing a pretty stout front.

Baker's getting the most time of any QB in the pocket, Mac. Look at the advanced stats.

Diam had the same issue when I was texting w/him last night. Try this one. You will have to scroll down just a bit. I have to warn you that it is over an hour long.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...live-152934049/

He didn't read either play right.

Stop with this Oline is bad nonsense. It's about as productive and based in reality in the "let's get rid of Baker at the end of the season!" nonsense.

So you expect perfection out of the Oline, but won't discuss Baker's shortcomings in a Baker thread?

j/c...

Baker's numbers in the 4th quarter speak for themselves, and they're not good overall.

Baker in the 4th Q with the game on the line? Different story...


Here's Baker in the 4th with the game within 7 pts:

5-8
Five completions resulted in four 1st downs and a one TD

3 INC = 2 blatent DROPS... and one ball fired at the feet of Hooper under extreme pressure (Play where he hit his hand on defenders helmet and stood there shaking his hand)


5-8 took place over 5 drives... Results? Two TDs / Two FGs / 1 punt (that nailed Indy deep and led to Safety)

It's hard to gauge whether Baker is "clutch" with such a small sample size. The biggest reason for the small sample size is a dominant ground game -- hard to be upset about that.

I definitely won't say he is clutch, but I think it's hard to say he's not when most of his 4th quarter snaps (this season) were in anything but clutch situations. It's also true that some of his bad play kept the other team "in the hunt", no argument there. Bottom line? The jury is out and I hope he thrives on the narrative and plays well when it matters most.

The jury is certainly still out, Fate. However, I think he has come up short in several other instances in his first two years when the game was on the line. He seems to get tight when things get tight.

But again, too early to say for sure. I know that you said you trust him when the game was on the line and I respect your opinion. I came up w/my "trust" comment because I didn't trust him and my senses were heightened. Not saying I am right. Like you said, we don't have a large enough sample size. It is something to monitor as we move forward.

One more thing.......where are all the guys who love screaming "agenda" in regards to the negative comments about the OL? LOL

...Didn't think so...

...RUN FOREST, RUN...LOL..

mac,
This comment. Wasn't that far up....

I think I can answer the question that was posed. The OL comment was a one time thing. It was an isolated comment. We don't see it infecting thread after thread. It didn't delve into theories about trusting them and questioning several aspects of the OL.

As such I saw it as a goof. Something we didn't see repeated over and over and over again. Such isn't the case for the other topic that was implicated.

I saw it and chose not to answer it. I'm not getting sucked into these stupid games that some posters play.

Not getting sucked in but instigating. .... consistent from a perspective of telling others what they have to post on. Same old same old ....

OL has played well and done well both run blocking and pass blocking. Baker has contributed to his own issues this season but less than last year regards running from clean pockets ... To Pit's point - Mac made a one time comment about a play that got Baker crushed. I think the OL gets a pass much like Landry gets a pass on his drops ... much like every throw and decision from Baker doesn't need to be perfect.

j/c:

On ESPN this morning, they were talking about the Browns/Steelers game. There was a question about whether or not the analysts trusted Baker to win the game and/or not make mistakes. The analysts were former NFL players. They showed some of the graphics that I have been pointing out. Not one of those guys trusted Baker. It's not just me. It's not an agenda. It's a valid concern based on facts and while I am not saying it is a given, it certainly is something to monitor despite what the Baker Fan Boys have to say.

Maybe. Funny how forever ex-NFL types and reporters have been universally called "Talking Heads" - but now they are NFL Analysts and Ex-NFL players.

I don't know who said what - some are excellent and I'd listen to every word. Some are not. Merril Hoge springs to mind as an example who talked a lot of nonsense over the years.

Baker's 4th Q stats are bad and speak for themselves on one level. It's reasonable to wonder what will happen if the game requires a clutch performance from Baker to come from behind on the last drive or two .... Maybe we'll get to see - or maybe we will have a big 2 score+ lead and the play calling will be conservative and Baker will miss a throw or the receiver will drop a catchable pass and we'll win, but Baker's stats in the 4th Q will still be bad?

Concerns sure - 4-1 despite the QB? Absolutely not.

Here is some context to what I was talking about in regards to Baker and the OL.

After week 4, Baker is ranked 26th at qb by PFF.

I can't find the latest results for offensive lines by PFF, but after week 3, the Browns were ranked 3rd overall. They had allowed just 15 pressures during the three games. For blanks and giggles, compare that w/the NY Giants who people love to talk about in regards to how bad the OBJ trade was. They had allowed 46 pressures through three games and Kevin Zeitler has allowed 8 pressures all by himself.

And there you have it.

Yeah, I agree.

Can't we all just acknowledge the following and move on -

1. We all know Baker is not playing great and needs to improve.

2. We all know Baker holds the ball too long and needs to improve in the 4th quarter.

3. However, we are still winning.

4. Why is this important? Because it buys time for Baker to improve and grow into the position. We cannot be in a better spot. We never develop players. Fans should be doing somersaults over the excitement that we finally have the opportunity to do so.

5. Beating him up every week over all of his weaknesses is pointless. Mentioning them in the post game thread is fine. It's an in the moment analysis of what is going on. But to continue to cite report after report after report and analyst after analyst after analyst bashing on Baker is annoying. They are not saying anything we don't already know and can see with our own eyes.

6. At this point, we want to see improvement and growth. We will know what the FO and coaching staff think about him after the season.

7. Let's enjoy this friggin season without bashing our own (except for Pendejo). We have the biggest game of the weekend tomorrow.

8. The end.

Over all I agree with you. I said it before the season and I'll say it again, what I'm looking for is improvement over the course of the season. That includes Baker. That includes everyone.

I would like to point out one thing that has seemed to be missing from the conversation. When a new system is introduced to a team, each player has to learn what they have to do at their position. WR's have to earn their individual routes and assignments. Each member of the OL has to learn what their responsibility is on each individual call.

A QB has to learn what every WR on the field is doing. Where they are supposed to be, which way they will break on each route. It's a lot more to learn and far more complicated. As such, I would expect it to be a longer process.

I know I will hear rumblings of how that's just an excuse. But that's usually the best someone has to offer when you present them with undeniable facts.

Baker certainly needs to improve. But his first half performances are a lot of the very reason we're winning those games. It's the very reason we have the luxury of running the ball late in games with a substantial lead.

I think it's important that when looking at a coin, you look at both sides of it rather than focus only on one side and pretend the other side does not exist.

I think Baker has played well. In the first half.

I think Baker has shown improvement in terms of not leaving the pocket - and in each game there are examples of him going through progressions. He's cut his interceptions down dramatically.

Baker has made some bad throws - and when he misses he still seems to be missing high. He's still leaving the packet when he doesn't need to sometimes.

To the posts this morning - I've seen the PFF grade on Baker posted multiple, multiple times to show him in a bad light and where he ranks in their system. It's beating a dead horse to death under the guise of trying to crowbar it into the discussion ..... ESPN has him ranked 8th by their QBR system. I've posted that once before. I think from now on I am simply going to provide that ESPN information every time as a alternative perspective when I see the PFF grade spammed on the board.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/table/passing/sort/adjQBR/dir/desc

I think last weeks game against a good D was the most interesting to date - I chose to completely ignore the Ravens game for multiple reasons, just my choice - I think the Pit game will tell us a whole lot more about the team, about Baker and about the coach. I feel pretty sure we are going to need to see the good Baker in the 4th Q of the game this Sunday ... can he do it? Will he tighten up? Having seen Baker 3 times before what with their D dial up? Can we run it? ... More than ever I think Hooper, Bryant and Njoku will be keys on O. The DL will be the key on D. jmo

Quoted for emphasis.

I'm enjoying the season. I think this team has enough talent to make a lot of noise in the playoffs. However, in order to do that, we need much better qb play and I will continue to honestly evaluate the position and post facts, even if one poster considers PFF numbers spam.

Over and over and over again.

Wow - another blatant lie and attempted manipulation. By your own standards anyway.

What I said was your continued posting of the PFF numbers over and over and over and over is spam.

What I have said about PFF grades is that I regard them highly.

This is one I have a hard time with. We are winning, but that does not excuse everything. With this logic, we should not be complaining about trotting Sandejo out there every game.

That's fair. But all the stable teams are able to develop players. Why? Because they are usually winning while those players are stumbling. That's my only point. Not to say guys can't improve. Sendejo is a just a one year player for us.

I don't think people remember how mediocre Pig Pen was his first few years. Talk about holding the ball for an eternity. But they won. A lot. And look how that turned out.

You know the teams Baker faced only have good stats because Baker is so bad right?

To me, I don't get a feel of confidence when he needs to make a play. I'm in the opinion that his missed passes that sail high, are when he is in the pocket and has defenders with their hands up. I noticed this a few weeks in a row. I think he has trouble putting loft on the ball. He still throws pretty hard and it always seems these balls are not arcing, they are missiles. I think he has a problem throwing over their hands, due to his height.

It also seems to me that when he does get hit, he becomes skittish. What bugs me, is I know there is separation by the WRs,yet his completions always seem to be when the defender seems to catch up. OBJ, and Landry both have a knack of getting separation, I think his throws are late.

As for if he can make the plays to seal a game, I am skeptical. I think he has the talent to do it, but I still think the game is too fast for him still.

I'm agreeing with you. Baker needs to take a step up. If he does, this team could beat anybody.

I see his drawbacks but if Bake plant a flag in Pittsburgh and gets us to 5-1, some folks better start shutting the hell up.

Big game this week, boys!

Be careful or you will be their next target.

Look, when I dared to suggest that Baker needed to work on his footwork, the same folks who are bashing me now were the ones who said his footwork was fine.

When I said he struggled going through his progressions, they were the same guys bashing me back then.

When I said he didn't prepare hard enough last off-season, they bashed me for that. He later came out and said it himself.

When I said he wasn't producing in the clutch, they balked yet again.

When I said he held it too long, they blamed the OL.

They change their tunes when the evidence becomes overwhelming, but it's always the same guys who think their criticisms of me actually makes Baker a better football player. I am amazed that more people haven't seen through their facade.

You act like you're the only one who has ever criticised Baker and said those things. Hell, I was probably saying most of that before you were.

The difference is I don't take any joy in it. I don't pat myself on the back when I'm right. Because at the end of the day I'm a Browns fan and when Baker doesn't play well, it hurts the team. It actually brings me down.

Your posts come across the opposite. You appear to enjoy Baker's fails because you dislike him as a person. You get downright giddy when you find a talking head that supports your position. You post the same thing over and over and over again. Are there Baker fan boys? For sure. But mostly I think people are wondering why you take so much joy in it.

I know you will take this personally. Ultimately, you know I don't care if you do. But if you are truly confused why you are getting pushback (and your confusion is not an act), there's your answer.

Wait...........I'm not falling for this. I am not going to get into the personal crap. Believe what you will.