Right. He got injured and the Chargers let him walk because they had Rivers waiting. Brees didn’t start his first season and then got really good his fourth season (third season starting). He’s been a MVP candidate basically every year since then until now.
Drew Brees was not traded. He struggled a bit early on and started to come on later under Marty. Brees credited Marty for turning his career around.
Then, another former Brown by the name Gerard Warren hit Brees in the last game of 2005. Brees suffered a shoulder injury. The Chargers had drafed Eli Manning and then made the exchange of draft picks and ended up w/Phillip Rivers a year or two earlier. The Chargers did offer Brees an incentive laden contract to remain w/the team.
Nick Saban was the HC in Miami at that time and desperately wanted Brees. The Dolphins' FO went w/Duante Culpepper instead and that led to Saban quitting because he said he was promised control of those types of decisions and realized the tam wasn't giving it to them.
The Saints then offered Brees a big contract. Something like $10 million guaranteed for the first year and over $60 million over 6 years. The Chargers would not improve their incentive laden offer and their 5 year $50 million offer.
None of those numbers were peanuts at the time. Quite the contrary. I think people have a false perception of actually went down w/Brees and why/how he changed teams.
This is all from memory, but we can look for links if y'all really want to argue who is closer to the truth. I'm betting on my memory over yours.
I heard a blurb of an article that said Stefanski stated Baker would continue to start, if healthy.
I think this is the right move. Baker is obviously not where he needs to be right now. Dude is providing evidence that he's not a fQB. He has, however, shown the ability to change/improve, so I'm putting my hope in that. All of those videos have pointed out that his footwork is a mess. That is something that can be improved, and once it does I wonder if other parts of his game start to drop into place.
He's shown before that he's a accurate QB, but right now he's not. He's shown before that he's a confident QB, but right now he's not. Something is broken that needs to be fixed.
Not sure why, but I am confident Stefanski will make the right decision with Baker, long-term. Not sure which way it'll go, but I just have a feeling that he knows what he's doing with this.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
For those of you who like to be educated, the following video is a very good demonstration of how pre and post-snap reads are different and an example of what I am talking about when I say that Baker doesn't have good eyes when reading post-snap coverages.
You can watch the entire video, or skip to around the 2:15 mark to see Orlovsky break down two pre and post-snap reads and why Baker is failing in this area.
I'll just add that if you want to see a perfect example of what NOT to do, re-watch that pick6, and listen to what the talking heads say. How he didn't see the safety is a little egregious. One of the talking heads (don't remember which one, but they were in agreement and 1 of them was Romo) said it's probably that Baker saw the safety retreating pre-snap and assumed he wouldn't be there.
Similarly, on the 2nd INT Baker just kinda chucked it. That kinda play is not going to win games on any team, much less this one.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I don't know about anyone else but I didn't see a marked change once Keenum went in - he had one seam route that was wide open that I am sure Baker would have connected with also - though maybe others will disagree?
Think we saw the worst of Baker during a terrible team performance yesterday. Bitterly disappointing. I think we will see much better in the next 3 weeks and we could easily be 6-3 ... heck we might be 8-3 when we face a really good Titans team. We can argue if it's despite Baker all along the way if that happens. We can argue if Baker can only perform against moderate opposition and other fun stuff. But hopefully we will see progress with his areas of weakness.
When we play teams that don't have the ability to constantly get pressure - will Baker continue to improve in all areas he needs to? Will his confidence be shot? Will KS get find a way to elevate him. When we play Titans, Ravens and Steelers in the last 4 weeks of the season I think that might be when the book is written on Baker. Is he making others better like he seemed to his rookie season - or is he holding them back? .... I'm certainly discouraged after the Ravens and Pittsburgh games - not ready to give up on seeing Baker rise to the challenge and show more of his Rookie year ability coupled with improvement in reading D and going through progressions etc.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I don't know about anyone else but I didn't see a marked change once Keenum went in - he had one seam route that was wide open that I am sure Baker would have connected with also - though maybe others will disagree?
Think we saw the worst of Baker during a terrible team performance yesterday. Bitterly disappointing. I think we will see much better in the next 3 weeks and we could easily be 6-3 ... heck we might be 8-3 when we face a really good Titans team. We can argue if it's despite Baker all along the way if that happens. We can argue if Baker can only perform against moderate opposition and other fun stuff. But hopefully we will see progress with his areas of weakness.
When we play teams that don't have the ability to constantly get pressure - will Baker continue to improve in all areas he needs to? Will his confidence be shot? Will KS get find a way to elevate him. When we play Titans, Ravens and Steelers in the last 4 weeks of the season I think that might be when the book is written on Baker. Is he making others better like he seemed to his rookie season - or is he holding them back? .... I'm certainly discouraged after the Ravens and Pittsburgh games - not ready to give up on seeing Baker rise to the challenge and show more of his Rookie year ability coupled with improvement in reading D and going through progressions etc.
This is the worst thing you can say about a QB, than in order to be a starter you must have bad backup QB's.
And no, I do not think Case is has bad has Baker, he can do more than 1 read, and he can change the snap count. Baker was awful against PIT, he has almost no awareness and he is very slow to react. He's backup material at most, not a starter in this league, game is too fast for him.
Ha! Well that's good to know. Thank you for posting both.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
That wasn't my point. But that's fine if you want to take it that way.
It looked like your point, looked like you were dissing Case to make a point for Baker...
I'm almost sure the Stefanski game plan for CK is much better than what he has to do for Mayfield, because CK is a better QB than Baker, and we are dumming down our offense because Baker is a very limited QB.
He is slow,he has no awareness, and clearly players don't believe in him, he is making everybody worst, you can see that on how our D played after the Int, its was like game over, lets try not to get injured because our QB sucks, and there is no point on playing this game to the end.
In the end its not the kid's fault we picked him number one... but its time to move on.
Baker will need to improve and play better against Pittsburgh. They've had a strong defense, with very few short drop offs, for a very long time. They're in our division. Playing poorly against a good D only works as an excuse for so long. Baltimore and Pittsburgh are simply teams we have to beat. We're in a very good division, and that's not going to change.
IMO, the "they were getting pressure" is a lame excuse (that's how I hear it anyway).
... and before anyone says it, yes... the whole team played poorly. I'd argue the Oline was a bigger disappointment than Baker, but this is the Baker thread, though.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Baker will need to improve and play better against Pittsburgh. They've had a strong defense, with very few short drop offs, for a very long time. They're in our division. Playing poorly against a good D only works as an excuse for so long. Baltimore and Pittsburgh are simply teams we have to beat. We're in a very good division, and that's not going to change.
IMO, the "they were getting pressure" is a lame excuse (that's how I hear it anyway).
... and before anyone says it, yes... the whole team played poorly. I'd argue the Oline was a bigger disappointment than Baker, but this is the Baker thread, though.
No they don't have a superstar D, Baker made it easy... just go back and look at the plays and see how many plays did Baker not do... Stefankski called a good game, but Baker can't see the field and he is too slow to react.
Pit can't do that with almost any other QB in the league. D's only have to play half the field, they can stack the box defend the run and wait for Baker to make a mistake... Yes he is that bad.
Ben looked like Super Bowl Ben yesterday. The Steelers are playing in championship form right now and we (the whole team) were exposed as still not there.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Umm, didn't Pitt come in as the #1 rated defense? I'm not making excuses for Baker, but Pitt absolutely DOES have a very strong D. They have Watt as part of a very strong front, and Fitz on the back end with 'glue' guys throughout in a well-established scheme.
Pitt has and will do well on vs the league.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Keenum is a proven starting QB in the NFL, You can argue he was average. He's not a bad QB and coming in when a team has NOT game planned for you is normally an advantage. You just implied that yourself that Keenum is better than Baker. My point was we put a different QB in there and the results looked the same. It wasn't that Keenum is bad so Baker should start.
You claiming KS called a good game and this was all or mostly on Baker simply does not stack up to what we watched yesterday. You made your mind up on Baker a long long time ago ... and maybe you'll end up being right. But you don't get to re-write what most of us witnessed to support your claim.
Last edited by mgh888; 10/19/2010:46 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I have a feeling Indy's overall rank dropped after we beat them.
I just looked at ESPN's stats. Pitt is #2 defense in yards/game, pts/game, and rushing/game (with different teams beating them in those categories). Interestingly, they're further down in passing/game.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Not sure if anyone is going to comment on the video I posted earlier this morning, but I am going to comment on it. The video was a great example of how a defense can give one look pre-snap and then change it post-snap. It was very obvious that Baker was confused on those plays and did not make the right reads. This has been something that I have seen over and over.
The bad part is that I am not sure if it is correctable. We've seen other qbs who were recent high draft choices lose their jobs for pretty much the same reason.
The Browns don't have a lot of options right now because I don't think Case Keenum is the answer. But folks are wondering aloud if Baker is losing -- or going to lose-- his teammates, especially the skill guys who are dependent upon him to get them the ball.
For those of you who like to be educated, the following video is a very good demonstration of how pre and post-snap reads are different and an example of what I am talking about when I say that Baker doesn't have good eyes when reading post-snap coverages.
You can watch the entire video, or skip to around the 2:15 mark to see Orlovsky break down two pre and post-snap reads and why Baker is failing in this area.
Great video with an excellent breakdown of Baker's flaws. If he cannot read and react to a Defense at this point in his career, it is going to be hard to say that he ever will be able to.
Baker looked like a QB who had not practiced for a week. I question whether the Browns made a wise decision to start him.
Keenum showed a quick release, getting rid of the ball quickly..BUT, once the Steelers realized the short passing scheme, they adjusted and shut down. Don't know if Keenum has the arm to throw deep, but the Browns might have been better off to start a healthy Keenum.
The flaws that the talent evaluators said Baker had coming out of college are coming to fruition. Whether other posters on this board like him or not Vers has been talking about this for a long time and I now feel he is right. He doesn't see the field, he has trouble with pre and post snap reads, has trouble going through his progressions and has trouble with pressure. I don't know how much of this can be corrected. I feel we finally have a really good HC and coaching staff along with top end talent on O. Our QB at this time I feel is holding us back. Its too early at this time but we should be concerned and this may have to be addressed at the end of the season.
I think that progress is being a good team this year.
We have seen what a championship caliber team looks like - twice this year.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
My only real "argument" (if you can even call it an argument), to what vers has been saying is if Baker will ever be able to improve enough.
While it's not the easiest thing to pick up on to the lay person, vers (and others) have pointed out Baker's flaws plenty of times prove that they're very real and serious. I don't think too many on here can defend his poor play and his role when our offense isn't clicking.
What I (and many others, I suspect) argue is if Baker can ever "get it". Can these issues be fixed/taught/learned? Vers has responded many many times that pre-snap reads can be learned via intense film study, but post-snap reads cannot (it's tied to the brain's processing power such that some brains can handle it, and some can't). I'm a newby to the nitty gritty details of football (which is where the screen name comes from), and saying someone can't do/learn something like this is what I can't wrap my brain around. This area of Baker's game is something that many college programs don't teach young QBs. If Baker hasn't been asked to do this at an advanced level until he got to the NFL, how can we be so sure he CAN'T? That's really the crux of my argument. Also, Baker has shown brief glimpses of going through reads. So it's not that it's impossible for him, he's just extremely inconsistent.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I'll say it this way. Tonight, I'm going to go back and try to find what they were saying about Josh Allen prior to this year. I'm not disagreeing with what they're saying about Baker when they're breaking down film, but the conclusions "who would take this guy over Josh Allen", as if that's some sort of deep argument.
They sound like 'hot-take' machines. Wow... so Josh Allen is playing better right now than Baker Mayfield. Thanks for the blowing my mind, Rex. You think they were saying the same thing back when Baker was setting the rookie TD record and Allen looked like a bust?
I take these guys seriously (Rex Ryan, maybe not so much), but sometimes they make it really hard to do so.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
If by your third year you don't seem to be improving in your post snap reads, the odds are you never will. Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.
It's almost a natural reaction, response type thing. It's like speed processing a situation. It's a very rare attribute to find. Which is why finding someone with the physical ability to play NFL QB combined with the mental processing ability to react so quickly to an NFL defense post snap makes it so rare. The NFL has adapted their defenses to disguising what they plan to do post snap that often time your pre snap reads mean very little. That's why as NFL D's have adapted, it makes those post snap reads even more critical than ever.
IMO, the best QB I've ever seen at doing this was Peyton Manning in his prime. I'm sure there are others. It's just with the limited protection he was given, his career was a work of art.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
How much do you think he worked on improving this last season? Or even his first season?
They're working on his footwork right now.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Just a stray thought: might it be that Baker has a harder time against 3-4 defenses? Both Bal and Pitt run them, and they seem to eat his lunch.
We played well against the 4-3s that Wash, Dal, Cin, and Ind had.
I think it is less to do with the scheme than the amount of pressure he is under, how fast that pressure arrives, and how consistent the pressure is.
Ravens and Pit seemed to put Baker under a lot of pressure - quickly - often ... while ALSO having good coverage on the receivers for the most part.
Someone mentioned the play call (Eo in the 'What I saw' thread) that having been under pressure so much KS said before the half he needed to help Baker - then proceeded to call a long developing screen pass where Baker was under pressure before he was even looking up for a receiver.
I think most QB's would struggle with the pressure Baker was under Sunday and how badly everything the OL did they got bullied and thrown around like rag dolls - look at Rogers yesterday too. And he most definitely had moments when he could have made better plays and a better QB or a more seasoned QB would have made a play - but it would not have changed the outcome of the game. Baker didn't lose this game it was a team loss.
It's going to be a hell of a challenge to figure out *if* Baker does play well against the weaker teams and then struggles again vs Pit, Balti, Tenn. . . . but I'm hopeful that by the end of the season we might still be playing meaningful games while we see if Baker can 'get it'.
As for the pre-post read defenses .... It's not rocket science. All teams try to disguise what they are doing - when they blitz they try to hide who the extra blitzer is. With coverages it's the same thing: make it look like zone when it's man coverage and vice versa. Make it look like it's 2 deep safeties when it's cover 1 or cover 3. There's a wide range of coverages that can look like one thing pre-snap and something different post snap, often the initial movement of the safeties is the indicator. Some teams do it a lot always, some teams do it to scheme against a specific or inexperienced QB. I think it's safe to say every team from here to the end of the season will be doing it a LOT. We should have the opportunity to see how Baker progresses.
Last edited by mgh888; 10/19/2003:06 PM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I am also sure that no small part of his difficulties is the same thing we have done to most young players who have walked through those doors in Berea: Year 1 coach and system is not like year 2 coach and system which is unlike year 3 coach and system.
I would wager that no team has ruined more players who started out with a ton of promise, with their roller coaster approach, than we have.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
CLEVELAND, Ohio – It was a rough Sunday for Baker Mayfield and the Browns, who lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers 38 to 7. It may be an even rougher Monday for Mayfield as the nation’s sports pundits call for him to be benched.
It didn’t take long for ESPN’s “Get Up!” morning show to dive right into the struggles of Baker Mayfield, who threw two first-half interceptions during Sunday’s game.
“Last year, the Cleveland Browns tried to build their house on the foundation that was Baker Mayfield,” said ESPN analyst and former Steeler Ryan Clark said Monday morning. “This year they tried a new thing. They said we’re going to build a house around Baker Mayfield to protect him. And what he’s done already is lit the fire that’s going to burn the house down. You can’t win with a quarterback who plays football this way.”
Mayfield came into Sunday’s game with bruised ribs. The Browns' two star wide receivers – Odell Beckham Jr. and Jarvis Landry – were also hurting during the week. However, Clark insists Mayfield’s mistakes on Sunday are a clear indication he’s not the guy Cleveland thought he was when they drafted him.
“This team is in trouble,” Clark continued. “Not necessarily in trouble that they won’t win games or that they won’t fight for a wild card spot. When you draft a guy No. 1 overall, that says I believe this guy is our franchise guy who can take us to the promised land. Baker Mayfield cannot. He is no Moses. They are no Israelites. They will be stuck and enslaved to who he is for a long time if he remains the quarterback.”
Clark wasn’t alone in his criticism. Former NFL head coach Rex Ryan, who has been a critic of Mayfield’s for a while of now, agreed.
“Everyone thinks it’s a personal thing with me and Baker. It’s not,” Ryan insisted. “I have a personal thing with every scout that said this was Drew Brees…I knew he wasn’t Drew Brees. Baker Mayfield doesn’t have that ability. When it’s cloudy, he’s just an average guy at best.”
How much do you think he worked on improving this last season? Or even his first season?
They're working on his footwork right now.
They ALWAYS work on that. Please don't pretend that a player can "only work on one thing at a time". If that were the case, he could never work on learning anew playbook while he was trying to improve his footwork.
Every NFL HC knows for a QB to succeed he has to be able to process a defense post snap. But as I said, there's only so much you can teach a QB about that. A lot of it is the speed at which you can do it. That can't be taught.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The system you are playing in has nothing to do with being able to read what and how a defense is reacting and deploying its defense in reaction to it.
Learning what you are supposed to be doing has nothing to do with being able to see what they are doing.
This is why I hate to even get into discussing this topic.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It just seems like the way they're attacking his footwork now (combined with Baker's attitude going into last year) makes it seem like he's really only addressing this for the first time now.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think your argument is fair and genuine. I do want to clarify something, though.
I am not saying he "can't get it" in regards to being good at seeing the field and reading post-snap coverages. I'm saying it's not looking good.
I am sure that you have heard the phrase that "the game is slowing down for him." That phrase is used for a few things, but one of them is seeing the field and reading post-snap coverages. Thus, it is NOT impossible. It's just that he shouldn't be making some of the reads he is right now. Like Orlovsky said, those were two "elementary reads." He should not be so confused. He is predetermining throws.
He has some other issues, too. His pocket presence is poor. He is telegraphing the snap count. He isn't making sight adjustments or recognizing where the blitz is coming from pre-snap, Etc. However, I think he can improve in those areas and has already improved in a couple of them. It's that damn processing information accurately and quickly that is a real b....!
One more thing.........don't worry about the hot air that Rex Ryan and some others are blowing. Just concentrate on the film breakdown like the two examples that Orlovsky provided this morning. Ignore the blowhard statements by some that are meant to be hot takes. Concentrate on the actual plays w/show the routes, coverages, options, etc. That's where you can learn a lot. You might not have experience in those things and most people don't, but you are an intelligent guy who tries to learn and give honest assessments. And if you ever watch the Burns marathon that I provided earlier this week, do it in segments. It's pretty dry even for a guy like me who loves that stuff.
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