DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Defense Wins Championships...

...but offense wins games.

OK. We're not going to win any championships with the team we have right now. Our defense is obviously not good enough for that. But thanks to the addition of some OL tallent we can now win some games.

As opposed to the last bunch of years, it's actually fun to watch our games now...instead of being seriously painful. Yes it's still a bit painful to watch our D at times but at least we watch with the anticipation that our O will get the ball again and could correct what the D allowed to happen.

We're competative in games now. Up until the Bungle game we got and deserved no respect. I remember Chris Berman saying, moments before the Bungle game, 'If Derik Anderson has a bad game is he going to be traded too?'

That joking statement hurt a bit. That's my lifelong favorite, poor pathetic, team being made fun of. I like Chris Berman. His saying that doesn't change the fact that I like him. Heck, if it were the squealers that deserved that quip I'd have laughed.

Well, even though we're only 3 & 3, nobody's laughing at us anymore. We've got a long way to go to earn 'true' respect but we're competative...and many of us have been begging just for that morstle...for years. People are now saying that we're headed in the right direction instead of chasing out tail.

This past offseason was the FIRST offseason that great attention was put into our OL. I'm 99.978% sure that it's no coincidence that our offense is now something to watch with both eyes. I'm sure DA is thanking his lucky stars that he didn't have to walk in Tim Couch's shoes.

I'm not a big fan of the term Defense Wins Championships...because I think it takes offense to win games...but it's certainly true that once you have an offense that can get you into the playoffs, you're going to need a solid defense to accompany that offense in order to win that championship.

We need a RB (boy that Adrian Peterson is coming along ain't he?), we need another WR, we could use another G...and those positions should be looked at over the next offseason but I'm hoping and expecting that Savage will make our D his top priority and work his magic with our DL in the same way he did with the OL this past offseason. Yeah, it seems like we could use an ILB, an OLB, a S...but I'll be happy if he can just wave his wand over our DL and see what kind of difference that makes.

Maann, if our O can play more or less like it has the last couple of games...can you imagine if we actually had a good D?
We'd be hell.

We need a RB (boy that Adrian Peterson is coming along ain't he?), we need another WR, we could use another G...and those positions should be looked at over the next offseason but I'm hoping and expecting that Savage will make our D his top priority and work his magic with our DL in the same way he did with the OL this past offseason. Yeah, it seems like we could use an ILB, an OLB, a S...but I'll be happy if he can just wave his wand over our DL and see what kind of difference that makes.

Yeah Adrian is playing great, but i'm glad we didn't take him because we wouldn't have Thomas and our line wouldn't be as good. We definately need another receiver but I don't think guard is a need at all. We got a guy that can fill that spot and his name is LeCharles Bentley. Our line is set, we got quality starters and now quality depth.

I fully expect Savage to adress the defense next year with a mixture of FA and the draft much like he did this year with the o-line. I wouldn't worrry much about a RB in the draft because I want early picks spent on defense. Good thing there happens to be a guy next year that's going to be a free agent. Michael "the burner" Turner.

I fully agree that we aren't even going to sniff a championship without a solid defense. The best part is that we are only a few guy's shy of having a terrorizing defense. The thing I love the most was when Savage was asked about the defensive line he said "that's next" the guy get's it is doing a fantastic job.

Actually looking at it, this years FA market for RB's is the best I have seen in years. Hell next year alone is just a phenominal year for the running back position. The draft is the deepest I have ever seen it before as well.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2008/nfl/freeagentsRB.html

Michael Turner, UFA, San Diego Chargers
Turner will hit the market at the top of the available running backs list. Many teams will be interested in the services of “The Burner.” Turner would have a chance to start for some NFL teams, but in San Diego he sees limited action behind the stellar LaDainian Tomlinson. He’s just 25 years of age and over the past two seasons combined has averaged more than six yards a carry. With two career runs over 70 yards as a backup, including an 83-yard touchdown in ’05, Turner has shown that he can be a force on the field. He’ll get big dollars from a team looking for a new number one option.

Jamal Lewis, UFA, Cleveland Browns
Lewis will be rushing behind a line that is not as strong as the one he had in Baltimore, but the Browns are an up and coming team with talent scattered throughout the roster. If the team can pull together and Lewis can regain some of his old form, he should have a solid season. Since his 2,000 yard season in 2003, Lewis has struggled to play to that level again. In recent seasons, he’s looked hesitant and slow while rushing, but at 27, he has time to turn things around and start fresh in Cleveland.

Fred Taylor, UFA, Jacksonville Jaguars
The arrival and explosion of Maurice Jones-Drew puts the Jaguars in position to cut ties with the veteran Taylor. At 31, Taylor has hit the age of decline for the position and his history of injuries doesn’t help his cause. He’s rushed for more than 1,100 yards in each season that he has started at least 12 games, but at this point his best bet will be to find a role as a backup in ‘08 unless he can prove this coming season that there’s still some gas in the tank.

Vernand Morency, RFA, Green Bay Packers
Morency is currently listed as the starter in Green Bay, but rookie Brandon Jackson could cut into his playing time and may eventually move past him on the depth chart. Morency needs to run with a sense of urgency to keep his job, but also to ensure that he can earn a contract for next season. Morency is athletic and also has decent receiving skills for a back. Morency must begin to better understand his assignment and work on his patience in finding holes in the middle of the line.

Chris Brown, UFA, Tennessee Titans
Brown has battled injuries throughout his young career, and consistency has been a major issue as well, but after a week in which he ran for 175 yards, there’s a chance he is turning a corner and making progress. If Brown can produce at even half of that week one rate for the rest of the season, he’ll garner some attention on the market. His upright running style is something he has worked to improve, and he was able to rush for over 1,000 yards in 2004, when he was still raw. With running backs typically fading after 30, Brown has just three or four prime seasons left, so he’ll try to land a decent-sized contract.

Julius Jones, UFA, Dallas Cowboys
The more that Marion Barber III shows he can be a successful back in the NFL while shouldering a larger load, the more expendable Jones becomes. Jones has put up decent numbers each of the past two seasons with over 1,000 yards last season and four touchdowns. However, his touchdown totals have fallen each season as Barber has taken away most of his short-yardage carries. The Cowboys could look to keep Jones, but they may move on and the back may look for a new team on which he can get more carries. It’s hard to say which direction the team will go, but Barber seems more and more ready to start.

Other Free Agent Running Backs
Cedric Cobbs RFA Denver Broncos
T.J. Duckett UFA Detroit Lions
Justin Fargas UFA Oakland Raiders
Noah Herron RFA Green Bay Packers
Maurice Hicks UFA San Francisco 49ers
Travis Minor UFA St. Louis Rams
Mewelde Moore UFA Minnesota Vikings
Artose Pinner UFA Minnesota Vikings
Musa Smith UFA Baltimore Ravens
Tyson Thompson RFA Dallas Cowboys
LaBrandon Toefield UFA Jacksonville Jaguars


Turner or Jones would be just fine for me both are young and talented. Rather have Turner though.

Depth helps win championships...

I'm still waiting on a Day 2 pick to blossom..

and adding a Justin Fargas would be sooooo NICE!!!!

Good job.

It takes both. Before the season is over our D is going to have to stiffen if we are going to win a few more of those games.....I suppose we can't expect to score 30-40 points a game every week..

I can't pinpoint what exactly happened to the D.

Along the line, did a drop in Washingtons play have that great a impact?? Not having Alvin?? Did Roye hit the wall??

The backers are about the same except for Peek.....and that is a upgrade isn't it??

Did Russell make that big of a difference??

It just seemed that last year the D is what kind of, sort of kept us in ballgames. We didn't win many, but we seemed to be better defensively.

Maybe other teams turn it up on us a bit more knowing we have the ability to score a few more points than before. ???

I'm kind of getting the impression that perhaps teams knew we were not going to score on them and thus did not need to put forth much effort to beat us before. Therefore our defense may have looked better than it actually was. We did have those periodic 45-3 blowouts where we got absolutely destroyed, at the time we thought that maybe we were flat that week. Is it possible that those are the weeks that opposing teams decided not to play us like a by-week? Now that our offense is actually doing something teams can't take us lightly and our defense looks weaker as a result. /shrug That might be completely crazy, but I can't help but think there might be something there.

clutch

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I wouldn't worrry much about a RB in the draft

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I was telling my son (the Pat's fan) that very thing. I said that we could do what we did this year and get a JL, or what the Pat's did and get a Corey Dillon to hold us over.

peen

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Did Russell make that big of a difference??

Maybe other teams turn it up on us a bit more knowing we have the ability to score a few more points than before. ???

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I don't think that our D is much different from the past. I think we DO miss Russell. And I think that the Colts certainly could've scored more points than they did on us (had they thought we had any O at all) the last time we played. Teams didn't fear us at all in the past. I swear that '02 we made the playoffs partly because teams were sleepwalking against us and when we went into panic mode in the 4th qtr we took them by surprise and stole some games.

Hate to say it guys but our D was never that good to begin with. I know a lot of people thought (wrongly) that the D would be the catalist to the success or failor of this team heading into the season, but that hasn't been the case, and never was going to be. IMHO teams played just good enough to beat the Browns last year, folks had the preception that we would be able to shore up the line with sub par players and all would be well. We were weak in the secondary, and I often tried to point that fact out. Some folks said I was being negative and that we could count on the D, well most of you were wrong, I hate to say it.

If we were playing a team that couldn't stop the run and we got a 10-14 point lead, and they weren't doing much on the offensive side of the ball, what would you do? Me I run the ball and the clock, and that is what teams did to us last year, just enough to nail the lid shut. Yeah a lot of folks thought the D was keeping us in games but the truth is they just toyed with us because we had zero for an offense..

It's more then strange to me tho that to this point in the season most teams haven't abandoned the run even when we have them way down. It hasn't worked so far as them catching us, but one has to wonder at what point do other teams begin to abandon the run, and try to attack us thru the air.

Some how some way we have got to find a way to make teams 1 demensional then we can pin our ears back and go for pay dirt. Sooner or later teams are going to have to abandon the run against us, becasue of how potent our offense is, but when ??

The only question that remains is will we be able to respond to the air attack, becuase to this point we haven't done well. I think will improve tho, or at least I hope like hell we do !!! Seems to me that our secondary is still in the learning process, and hopefully that means they have an upside, will see ??

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Defense Wins Championships...

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Yes...But Offence saves the coachs (RAC) job for another year.....and thats whats happening, were scoring points, winning games and everything is fine in the common football fans eyes,

Behind the sences we know we need to add defence and thats what 2008 FA class & draft is all about....

It is rather amazing,, only a few guys missing from last years team, Russell and McKinley are the two big names and suddenly our D looks horrid,,,

But like you say Peen, it could be that Washington is finally done and the same with Roye. I guess there is something to be said for hanging onto guy too long.. At least in this case, it appears we did.

I'm not sure what the Smith boys are... are they stopgap... I mean Savage has a habit of doing that.. Getting stopgap players until he gets the guy he really wants..... (coleman and Andruzzi until he got Stienbach and Bentley and McKinney or Shaffer until he found Thomas sitting there for the taking)

History says that's what he does which I suppose is something every other team does also.

So to me, that leaves Russell.. you and everyone else would have been hard pressed to convince me that Pool wasn't ready.. he seemed ready, but what I was looking at was his play,, NOT his leadership which is what seems to be missing with Russell gone.

I'm guessing that if Russell were still here, the D would be more effective, but I don't think him not being here is hurting or affecting the Run Stopping ability that we DON'T have! That to me is still the line!

Seems to me their are a lot of underachievers on the Defense this year. Our LBs don't look good besides DQ. Wimbley just hasn't had that fire that he seemed to have last year. He makes several plays a game, but he has definitely let up some big passes and some runs.

Robaire Smith is the only D-Lineman playing well. And Sean Jones has def had an off-year, whether it's because he's covering people's behinds or what.

I hope Romeo starts holding some of these guys accountable and finds a way to get them to pick it up. Some of what we're seeing is just straight garbage.

But yeah, number 1 priority next year, re-sign Jamal and sign a D-Lineman to start (isn't Pat Williams a FA, how old could he be?) as well as draft a D-Lineman good enough to start.

Love our offense though, esp since the O-Line stayhing healthy should lead to better runblocking

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I think management knew we'd struggle some back there, but perhaps they thought it'd be worth it in the short run, expecting them to "get it" next year (2008) when we'd be serious contenders for the playoffs.

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Well if that's the case then I can live with this years mess.. I mean if it was thought out that doing it this way was better for the long term development of the Safeties,, then OK,, I can accept that. Still hurts like hell, but again, we weren't going anywhere this year so maybe if you gotta take a step back to go two forward later, I guess this would be the year.. kinda makes sense

Wasn't it you, Daman, that said the D is young and will get better? Someone said it...not sure who. And, I tend to agree with that. As they get more experience they should improve and gel better. At least one hopes.

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Seems to me their are a lot of underachievers on the Defense this year.

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On the Dline,, yeah, lots of underachievers,, As for Wimbley,, I'm not too worried about him. Take notice on the next game, see how many times he gets held and it's not called.. Happens a few times each game. Sooner or later, some ref somewhere is gonna have the light go on and start calling that.

As for the secondary, Bodden is doing fine, Holly is good, Eric Wright is a rook but seems to be showing potential,,, ya gotta laugh, he's making all the same rookie mistakes that Hanford Dixon did....but not the same spectacular plays that dixon did on a regular basis.

Pool is in his first year as a starter,, no doubt there are going to be some growing pains.. The guy I thought would be ready to lead and isn't is Jones. Kinda surprises me a little.. and disappoints me also.

I like our LB's but with that line, these guys aren't getting to do the job that LB's are supposed to do in the 3-4 based on everything I've read anyway.

So, underachieving,, yeah, in some respects I guess that's true.

People this isn't hard to figure why we're struggling this year..
New players, and young ones learning their roles..seasoned guys who are really showing their liabilities..oh..and old guys who need to retire..
Ted Washington..nothing left in the tank..
WG..older mentor .. smart but not much left..
E.Kelley..not a force inside..needs to be at DE.
Frasier..high motor but not solid against the run, more of a pass rusher..
R.Smith..not a bad upgrade but is showing to be a bit undisciplined..
S.Smith..playing out of position at DE...needs to start at NT.
Roye..digressing and injured...
K.Wimbley..good pass rusher but weak against the run..needs to be moved around more..
A.Peek..one diminsional pass rusher..
A.Davis..uninstinctive MLB..nuff said..
DQ's undersized WILL backer who needs to be freed up..
THATS our front 7 in a nutshell..

I really feel that our defense will look much stronger with a better group on the line. We have NO pass rush. Our linemen don't keep our linebackers free from blockers. Our secondary is having to cover for an awfully long time. We can't stop the run up the middle. Giving up control of the line of scrimmage is costing us big time.

We need a nose tackle. Who's out there in FA for 2008? The only thing I don't like about the 3-4 is the lack of linemen out of college who are ready to play on D. How many mammoth fatties with high motors and great physical condition are coming out of college these days? Not many.

RAC is a defensive guy. I'm sure he's aware of what the problem is. It'll be interesting to see how he and Phil address it in the off-season. Yeah, I'm planning on him being here a couple more years unless something really weird happens after the bye.

J.

jc.

I think what happened last year was we were so poor in run defense, and had no offense to score that teams just ran on us, and it made our pass defense look good because the stats showed we gave up very few passing yards, mainly because teams didn't need to pass and 1 TD and FG was enough to beat us.

We were the team that opponents would let players with minor injuries sit out and rest an extra week against.

Now that we can score, teams know they need to play their good game against us, and our defense is being ransacked and shown for what we all knew it was, poor.

As a Dead horse beater ; The loss of Russell was huge . I just don't see how anyone can down play that Savage Blunder ? He Was the QB. on the " D " and he made plays . Who Knows what Jones & Pool might turn out to be. Most are all a " Gaga" over the the draft of JT & then getting back into round one for BQ . ( Wright too ) . I myself ,was cheering . Then you add Stieny and the proof is in the win/loss already .

Other side of the coin ; Pool was a reach as a number two. Kam. has real problems with the Run at LB. and needs to be taught more moves as a pass rusher ( coaching )

Opinion : DQ. is to small to play in the middle and was a reach in the second round Houston grabbed Savages pick with the first pick in that round. Ryans..
Leon was a prodject when drafted and it is showing this season . Davis would not start on most teams, Mc & Peek are fill ins..At this point it looks like Smith and Smith are stop gap moves.

Phil is going to have to decide where and how to tackle the " D " in the off season . The lack ( as of now ) of a #1 is not going to help. Will he go back and build up front form the inside out ( like he did on" O " , finally ) ? BPA. with what ever draft picks we have . Who will be on the FA. market on the " D " side of the ball ..

Can Phil , Romeo , Grantham agree on what we really have or don't have as far as talent on " D " .. If we don't see some kind of improvement on the " D " by the end of the season will fingers keep pointing at Players ( or poor selection ) , Grantham , or work it's way up to Romeo ???

Will Romeo and Company pull off enough wins to keep the Fans ( and Lerner ) at Bay ! So we will sit back and watch as the rest of the season plays out .. I am so excited about the play and players on the " OL " , I can live with the continued building process ( Finally )

The loss of Russell was huge
It was ...and it has been mentioned..just not by those who focuse too much on the QB spot.


Other side of the coin ; Pool was a reach as a number two
Not considering he was rated very high..he wasn't on my list..but he has athletic ability..toss up IMO..

Opinion : DQ. is to small to play in the middle and was a reach in the second round
Bad opinion.. he was rated as one of the top ILB's to come out that year..the kid has the smarts just doesn't have a big body, thats his downside..


At this point it looks like Smith and Smith are stop gap moves
U evaluated this how?
R.Smith was the only reasonable DE Phil could get..
S.Smith is playing out of position..he needs to go inside to NT and Kelly needs to slide outside..

Can Phil , Romeo , Grantham agree on what we really have or don't have as far as talent on " D
Is there a disagreement between them on that issue?
What they may disagree is on Grantham's ACTUAL WORTH...
I think he's weak as a DC..his defenses in Houston were weak...even though there was a lack of talent there also..

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As a Dead horse beater ; The loss of Russell was huge . I just don't see how anyone can down play that Savage Blunder ?

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Sure looks like that's the case, But what if Ytes is right in his thinking that it was a calculated risk that they hope will pay benefits for years to come., One step back for two forward,,, ya know...

You and I both know that sometimes, while painful, it's gotta be done..

I WANT to believe that's what they are doing.. But I don't KNOW it's what they are doing.....

I think we screwed that up too.

I think we thought Russell wasn't going to get any interest and didn't sign him thinking we could get him back on the cheap a little later.

We guessed wrong.


Poole...I don't know if he will ever be two steps forward...this isn't qb where it can take a guy 2-3-4 years to finally get it....safety is one of those positions you can step in from college and play pretty well...if not better.

Doesn't mean guys won't get better, but it isn't one of the normal positions where you can realistically expect to see a big jump in production after a guy has been in the league 2-3 years.

JMO

It's funny that you say that because didn't it take Jones a couple of years before he showed the abilities he showed last year.

Of course I think he seems to have taken a step back this year, I believe that's a direct result of losing Russel and playing Pool.

That's also a possibility,,, everyone makes mistakes,,,, Savage and his brain trust aren't immune to them any more than you or I..

I've always told my customers,,, don't judge me on the mistakes I make,, I'm human, I'm gonna make them,, Judge me on how I correct them... That's the true measure...

We have fans on this very board that don't allow for error.. Too bad really that all they want to do is assess blame! Yet they rarely applaud effort!

Then theres guys like you Peen.. 5 weeks ago, you wanted RAC fired,,., But the team is now 3-3 and may actually have a chance at being respectable,,, I don't see you calling for his head anymore.. You've tempered your thinking to allow that maybe you might have rushed to judgement.. either that or you are saying, time will tell... either way, we are winning some, and I know you are happy.

That's cool,, I can respect someone like that....

What I can't stand is the ones that jumped on the FIRE RAC bandwagon, see the team is 3-3 and in a position to improve and are still saying he needs fired.

Or the ones that say DA Sucks,,, All evidence to the contrary, but because they want BQ in the game.. Now how odd is that!

Ok,, I'm gettin off the soapbox,,,

Then theres guys like you Peen.. 5 weeks ago, you wanted RAC fired

He still does..and he still posts stuff that eludes to it..U just don't see it.

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In your realm of business...profits make idiot managers tolerable and lack of profit makes good managers look for jobs

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HUH?

If U can't descern it..he's calling Rac a idiot..

Profit covers alot of wrongs in business. Lack of exposes things or send good mgrs to early retirement.

In football, wins are like profit

Water, I wasn´t cool with letting Russel go too...but....ever bothered to look up what he´s (the SEA-D) doing with the Seahawks?

Russell has:

- by far better Front 7 playing in front of him
- by far better pass rush by the front 7
- better run D
- at least as good teammates around him in th secondary as he would have here (Trufant, Lucas, D.Grant)

and....despite all that:

- SEA is giving up 7.0y/PA.....CLE is at 6.9
- SEA is giving up 220yds/game....CLE is at 250 or 260

I mean really....those stats do not look like there is a premium "DB-QB" ourt there...and it´s not like they had a harder schedule...not at all....

So, maybe that busts the "Russell-myth" a little bit....he has better talent around him there and they´re not much better

I honestly start to think, that our problems are much deeper than missing Russell...after all he was NOT re-signed by his last 2 teams (MIN+CLE)....not that it means much, just pointing it out because it is a popular argument to temper optimism when WE sign such a FA....and more often than not, those players turned out to not be all that.......but that´s jmho, now yank me

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Profit covers alot of wrongs in business. Lack of exposes things or send good mgrs to early retirement.

In football, wins are like profit

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Ok if you say so, but it doesn't make any sense as a response to anything I said to you.... But hey,, I can live with it.

I don't really see defense winning more championships than offense. At least not in the last 11 Superbowls.

I guess a balanced team is best.

YEAR CHAMP DEFENSE OFFENSE
2006 COLTS 21 3
2005 STEELERS 4 15
2004 PATRIOTS 9 7
2003 PATRIOTS 7 17
2002 BUCS 1 24
2001 PATRIOTS 24 19
2000 RAVENS 2 16
1999 RAMS 6 1
1998 BRONCOS 11 3
1997 BRONCOS 5 1
1996 PACKERS 1 5

AVG 8 10

Catch,, are the number to the right of the team the defense/offense rankings?

Yeah, total defensive ranking and total offensive ranking.

After looking at it I guess that you could say it's more likely to win with a great defense and a bad offense than it is to win with a great offense and a bad defense.

Even when the Colts won with a bad defense, they were ranked number 1 in postseason defense.

I guess I thought it was interesting that the averages were that close for offensive and defensive rankings.

I understood it.

If the team is winning, Ballpeen can deal with RAC and his deficiencies , if they are losing, then RAC's deficiencies are exposed.