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In typing out my previous replies, I was actually thinking about the exact same thing you just posted there.
I think we have policies and procedures in place, and they normally work well enough. The difference here is that there is a person with the temperament of an over-tired toddler, and the system has not been exposed to that before, much less designed with that in mind.
I think if someone alleges this massive fraud, it's on them to prove it... but I think there also needs to be some sort of timeline requirement to keep this train moving along. I think Trump is simply trying to stretch this out as long as possible for no other reason than to be a pita.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
-Ballpeen
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I will say this, since you are now about 450 posts in... I'm a progressive verging on socialist. My politics are based on what I think is the right and decent thing to do more often than not. I want to see everyone be fed, housed, clothed, have access to medical care and education as a basic right. We have to get over profits and bottom lines long enough to take care of the basic needs of every american that needs help first. In some cases, that might be government programs, and in other cases it might mean regulations. But in all cases, we should put people first and profits later IMHO. There are many other issues, but in my opinion, until we treat each of our citizens with the same basic dignity and respect that money buys those who can afford it now, we are going to continue to slowly disintegrate as a nation.
That all said, reading your posts from an opposition perspective, has been a welcome change to the non-rational posts of most of the boards Trump supporters. You seem to be very intelligent, put a lot of thought and detail in your posts, and have made some damn good points a time or two. Thanks for all of that. And when we inevitably disagree, I'll try to remember feeling this way before I lash out viciously to eviscerate your talking points in the future. Verging on socialist? More like hardcore socialist. All he needs to know is the liberals on this forum are hysterical and lose their poo at the mere sight of the word "Trump". Yall are incapable of debate. Yall are shaking in your boots at the thought of a recount.
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I think if someone alleges this massive fraud, it's on them to prove it... but I think there also needs to be some sort of timeline requirement to keep this train moving along. I think Trump is simply trying to stretch this out as long as possible for no other reason than to be a pita.
Right - but this is only because we (media, republicans, etc.) humor it. Somehow half of republicans now think there is unprecedented fraud -- despite literally no evidence. I'm tired of "present both sides" media, when one side is clearly acting in bad faith.
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Verging on socialist? More like hardcore socialist. All he needs to know is the liberals on this forum are hysterical and lose their poo at the mere sight of the word "Trump". Yall are incapable of debate.
I'm not sure if you know what a socialist is?
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Verging on socialist? More like hardcore socialist. All he needs to know is the liberals on this forum are hysterical and lose their poo at the mere sight of the word "Trump". Yall are incapable of debate.
I'm not sure if you know what a socialist is? Have you not ever read any of OCD's posts.
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Have you not ever read any of OCD's posts.
He is not a socialist -- except in the fake-republican definition where "every Democrat is a socialist".
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Have you not ever read any of OCD's posts.
He is not a socialist -- except in the fake-republican definition where "every Democrat is a socialist". He has humped Bernie Sanders for years.
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Have you not ever read any of OCD's posts.
He is not a socialist -- except in the fake-republican definition where "every Democrat is a socialist". He has humped Bernie Sanders for years. Now now ..... validated voter fraud cases only. We’re at 2 and counting, Is that all we have? Really? Anyone?
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Georgia Secretary of State Announces a ‘Full, By-Hand Recount in Each County’ C-SPAN Hannah Bleau 11 Nov 2020 Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) on Wednesday announced that the state will conduct a “by-hand recount in each county” in the Peach State. “At 1 p.m. today, I will make the official designation of which race will be the subject of the RLA [risk-limiting audit]. At that time, I will designate that the RLA will be the presidential race,” Raffensperger announced, emphasizing that the RLA, in this case, will require a by-hand recount. Typically, an RLA involves officials examining “a statistically meaningful sample of ballots.” “The audit is mathematically designed to catch anomalies that would arise from misconfigured machines, procedural errors, or intentional attack,” as NBC News reported. However, due to the narrow margins, Raffensperger is requiring a “by-hand” recount in all 159 counties. “With the margin being so close, it will require a full, by-hand recount in each county. This will help build confidence,” he said, adding that it will be “an audit, a recount, and a recanvass all at once.” “It will be a heavy lift, but we will work with the counties to get this done in time for our state certification,” he continued. “We have all worked hard to bring fair and accurate counts to ensure that the will of the voters is reflected in the final count and that every voter will have confidence in the outcome whether their candidate won or lost,” he added. Raffensperger’s announcement follows a request from Rep. Doug Collins (R-GA), who is leading the Trump campaign’s recount team in the Peach State. In a November 10 statement, Collins formally requested a “full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county,” attributing the request to “widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access.” His statement reads: As we begin the recount process, there are three things we are formally requesting today from Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. First, there must be a full comparison of absentee ballots cast and in-person and provisional ballots cast throughout the state. Second, there must be a check for felons and other ineligible persons who may have cast a ballot. Third, and most importantly, the Secretary of State should announce a full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county due to widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access. We can — and we will — petition for this in court after statewide certification is completed if the Secretary of State fails to act, but we are hopeful he will preemptively take this action today to ensure every Georgian has confidence in our electoral process.” President Donald Trump trailed former Vice President Joe Biden by roughly 14,110 votes as of Wednesday morning https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/...nt-each-county/
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Third, and most importantly, the Secretary of State should announce a full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county due to widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access.
Bull. if this isnt in the standard recount protocol it is not necessary.
Joe Thomas #73
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Third, and most importantly, the Secretary of State should announce a full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county due to widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access.
Bull. if this isnt in the standard recount protocol it is not necessary. What are you frightened of? If there was no rampant voter fraud then the result wont change. Allegations aside, the voting machines were down/broken for hours in several counties. It seems prudent to make sure they recorded the votes correctly. Also, if poll watchers were not present then the GOP has a legitimate gripe.
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Im not afraid of anything just dont base it on "wide spread allegations" when there were none. There was one moron trying to sell that crap why do we need to waste time babying him? That statement shouldn't be in the discussion. .
Joe Thomas #73
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Im not afraid of anything just dont base it on "wide spread allegations" when there were none. There was one moron trying to sell that crap why do we need to waste time babying him? That statement shouldn't be in the discussion. . One person cant be "widespread". "Widespread" implies that numerous people made allegations. In the State of Georgia. I dont know who these numerous people are, but clearly they exist.
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Wide spread based on nothing but a whining president.
Joe Thomas #73
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Wide spread based on nothing but a whining president. How would you know? They dont report to you.
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The people of the United States have decided this election.
trump was defeated twice in the popular election.
All the bogus calls of fraud will go nowhere. All britfart news will not change the outcome.
All the votes by the American people were counted by Americans doing their job all across the country. People of good intent doing what is right for their country.
The only fraud is trump. The guy behind the fraud of trump university. The guy who's life has been based upon fraud and quid pro quo. Karma can be a bitch.
And now she has laid her claim on one who was overdue.
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Thanks for the kind words, its appreciated.
I think you are right that Trump has not earned peoples trust and I understand that.
But Lyuokdea and oobernoober both expanded on that thought with the idea that the responsibility lies with the accuser to prove that fraud occurred. I think that is only partially true and depends on your point of view, because we are not only trying to prove a crime for the typical purpose of catching the guilty and punishing them. The people have a vested interest in being assured that the electoral process is secure and fair even if we are not specifically aware of any fraud. There is definitely a responsibility for the government to be able to provide some level of assurance that the system is trustworthy. We can't take it on blind faith. Here's why:
Contrast the election system with a financial system. If we wanted to prove that the fraud rate among 100 million transactions is acceptable, we would audit just a small subset of that transaction list. So we would take 1000 transactions, contact the vendor, contact the purchaser, verify receipts and check that the products/services were received. We could never accomplish the same thing with ballots because they have to remain secret, so we could never pull a ballot, call the voter, verify that they voted and verify their selections. Large parts of the election system are unauditable, untraceable. and unverifiable.
So if we want people to have faith in their election systems, then we have to do a lot upfront to prevent the system from being insecure in the first place and uphold strict rules and processes in order to make sure that everything is fair. It would make me feel more at ease if the government could provide information that showed that fraud was impossible or nearly impossible.
Since ballot fraud is nearly undetectable and untraceable, I suspect that if people believe that vote fraud is rare (say 1 in 100,000) and the government has historically done little to prevent it, then it is probably much more prevalent than most people believe. 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100 would not shock me, especially with people feeling so passionate about this election.
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Georgia Secretary of State Announces a ‘Full, By-Hand Recount in Each County’ C-SPAN Hannah Bleau 11 Nov 2020 Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) on Wednesday announced that the state will conduct a “by-hand recount in each county” in the Peach State. “At 1 p.m. today, I will make the official designation of which race will be the subject of the RLA [risk-limiting audit]. At that time, I will designate that the RLA will be the presidential race,” Raffensperger announced, emphasizing that the RLA, in this case, will require a by-hand recount. Typically, an RLA involves officials examining “a statistically meaningful sample of ballots.” “The audit is mathematically designed to catch anomalies that would arise from misconfigured machines, procedural errors, or intentional attack,” as NBC News reported. However, due to the narrow margins, Raffensperger is requiring a “by-hand” recount in all 159 counties. “With the margin being so close, it will require a full, by-hand recount in each county. This will help build confidence,” he said, adding that it will be “an audit, a recount, and a recanvass all at once.” “It will be a heavy lift, but we will work with the counties to get this done in time for our state certification,” he continued. “We have all worked hard to bring fair and accurate counts to ensure that the will of the voters is reflected in the final count and that every voter will have confidence in the outcome whether their candidate won or lost,” he added. Raffensperger’s announcement follows a request from Rep. Doug Collins (R-GA), who is leading the Trump campaign’s recount team in the Peach State. In a November 10 statement, Collins formally requested a “full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county,” attributing the request to “widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access.” His statement reads: As we begin the recount process, there are three things we are formally requesting today from Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. First, there must be a full comparison of absentee ballots cast and in-person and provisional ballots cast throughout the state. Second, there must be a check for felons and other ineligible persons who may have cast a ballot. Third, and most importantly, the Secretary of State should announce a full hand-count of every ballot cast in each and every county due to widespread allegations of voter irregularities, issues with voting machines, and poll watcher access. We can — and we will — petition for this in court after statewide certification is completed if the Secretary of State fails to act, but we are hopeful he will preemptively take this action today to ensure every Georgian has confidence in our electoral process.” President Donald Trump trailed former Vice President Joe Biden by roughly 14,110 votes as of Wednesday morning https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/...nt-each-county/ I actually believe that there is a greater chance of error with a human recount. The only saving grace is that true errors will not favor either candidate.
Last edited by ChargerDawg; 11/11/20 10:11 PM. Reason: Comment
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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The liberals have been trying to get rid of trump since the day he was elected... I wouldn't be surprised if there was proof the far left helped with systemic voter fraud... but unless there's proof (and I've yet to see any) let's move on...
<><
#gmstrong
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I will say this, since you are now about 450 posts in... I'm a progressive verging on socialist. My politics are based on what I think is the right and decent thing to do more often than not. I want to see everyone be fed, housed, clothed, have access to medical care and education as a basic right. We have to get over profits and bottom lines long enough to take care of the basic needs of every american that needs help first. In some cases, that might be government programs, and in other cases it might mean regulations. But in all cases, we should put people first and profits later IMHO. There are many other issues, but in my opinion, until we treat each of our citizens with the same basic dignity and respect that money buys those who can afford it now, we are going to continue to slowly disintegrate as a nation.
That all said, reading your posts from an opposition perspective, has been a welcome change to the non-rational posts of most of the boards Trump supporters. You seem to be very intelligent, put a lot of thought and detail in your posts, and have made some damn good points a time or two. Thanks for all of that. And when we inevitably disagree, I'll try to remember feeling this way before I lash out viciously to eviscerate your talking points in the future. Verging on socialist? More like hardcore socialist. All he needs to know is the liberals on this forum are hysterical and lose their poo at the mere sight of the word "Trump". Yall are incapable of debate. Yall are shaking in your boots at the thought of a recount. You must be at the bar, because I'm not afraid of anything.
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But they won’t move on. Conservative tears and the trump fear tactics worked on them.
Btw... A lot of right wing republicans wanted trump gone since day one as well.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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That's why I said that there is a line, and it's somewhere. But beyond that, saying that these one-off instances of illegitimate ballot(s) are widespread enough to impact the election is totally absurd, and so stopping everything to investigate doesn't make sense. Is it ok that this is going on? No. Does it impact the integrity of the election process? Not really.
What would impact integrity is an intentional instance of systemic fraud. Single attempt(s) to introduce a massive amount of fraudulent/illegitimate ballots into the system. This is what is being alleged and (so far) of which there is no proof. Well, I don't know all the reasons behind the lawsuits and whether they are saying their is some instances of mass vote tampering or not. If they have evidence, they only have to give that evidence to the judge. But I am still concerned that people are okay with voter fraud. I don't see anyway of knowing the proportion of illegal votes. If it is possible for 1 out of 1 million ballots to be illegal, then what measures are in place that would prevent it from being 1 in 100 ballots? I am not being facetious here either. I am ignorant on the internal controls used to protect the election process and legitimately curious how so many people can be so certain that there are not a large number of illegal votes. There is nobody OK with Voter Fraud... NOBODY As for if there is anything to Trumps assertions, just show the proof.... Trumps lawyers were asked by a Judge in PA,,, something like 500 or so Ballots in question. The judge asked, are you saying these ballots are fraudulent.. Trumps lawyers said no... If I'm the judge, I ask what the hell are you doing here. EDIT By the way, with Arizona going for Biden, that leaves Trump with only one way to win. PA must be turned around....AND Nevada and Arizona all need turned toward Trump. Do you see how that is not even close to likely? This is just a waste of time.
Last edited by Damanshot; 11/12/20 09:37 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
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There is nobody OK with Voter Fraud... NOBODY
Depends on what you mean by OK. Well certainly people who commit voter fraud are okay with voter fraud and I believe that there are a large number of people that are okay with illegal acts when they feel that the ends justify the means, and I think there are individuals, politicians for example, that are anxious to look the other way when it is to their benefit. I think a lot of people are okay with tolerating some small level of negligible fraud getting through the cracks as long as it remains negligible. The fact that we cannot provide reasonable assurance that it is negligible is worrying. It seems to me that we are headed for a 2024 election that will likely have increased fraud because right now, people are observing the media and Washington and getting the subliminal messaging that tells them 'this is okay'.
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This kinda goes with what Charger was saying before...
It's an understanding that, with a process as large as voting in the United States (all the millions of people involved over so many states, when there are slightly different rules/processes in each area/state and for people with different situations), you're going to have a certain amount of individual instances of illegitimate or even fraudulent ballots. You understand that that is a reality, so you don't allow a single or a couple bad ballot(s) taint the results of the overall election. It's not tolerating, because where irregularities are found they are investigated and prosecuted, if necessary.
Understanding vs tolerating
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
-Ballpeen
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I think a lot of people are okay with tolerating some small level of negligible fraud getting through the cracks as long as it remains negligible. The fact that we cannot provide reasonable assurance that it is negligible is worrying.
Serious question - what level of assurance would be enough for you?
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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That's a fair assessment. I think you have to look into materiality, too. As in, was the suspected fraud statistic enough to actually have any sort of meaningful impact on the election? If an election is decided by one state by a margin of 1,000 votes where statistics show that the fraud margin could have affected 2,000 votes in that state (these are all hypothetical), then it may be something that needs to be dug into.
By an opposing hypothetical, if an election is decided by millions of votes across a wide margin of states and is lopsided, and the fraud margin is very miniscule, then the margin of fraud commission is not impactful.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Kayleigh McEnany held up a bunch of papers on TV! Case closed long live the dictator! 
Joe Thomas #73
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I will give her the fact that she sometimes catches certain reporters dead in their tracks with their agenda. As a whole, however, her disposition and gaslighting infuriates me.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Audio recording shows Pa. postal worker recanting ballot-tampering claim https://www.washingtonpost.com/investiga...1b8e_story.html
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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I think a lot of people are okay with tolerating some small level of negligible fraud getting through the cracks as long as it remains negligible. The fact that we cannot provide reasonable assurance that it is negligible is worrying.
Serious question - what level of assurance would be enough for you? I would say that fraud exceeding 1 in 1000 ballots is too high. That is way more than enough to flip an election. 1 in 10,000 is still higher than you would like to see because when combined with other errors and election issues it can have an effect on the election. Ideally, you would like to feel that the ratio of fraudulent ballots is below 1 in 100,000.
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I would say that fraud exceeding 1 in 1000 ballots is too high. That is way more than enough to flip an election. 1 in 10,000 is still higher than you would like to see because when combined with other errors and election issues it can have an effect on the election. Ideally, you would like to feel that the ratio of fraudulent ballots is below 1 in 100,000.
Ok - that makes sense. I could agree that 1/1000 would be concerning (though, I think it is worth noting that this seems unlikely to flip any of the states in this election). But more to the point of my question -- What would make you confident that there was no fraud at the level of 1/1000?
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Now Trump is firing them...
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Hey fish, they are lying to you. I know that's hard for you to grasp, but they are lying to you bro. Trump's own people came out and said it was a fair election. And I suspect somebody is now paying people to lie for Trump. Also, Lou Dobbs is a fool.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 11/13/20 12:04 AM.
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I refuse to believe people are gullible enough to truly believe this nonsense. Her attorney practices out of a house. He's just digging a little free publicity.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438 |
Hey fish, they are lying to you. I know that's hard for you to grasp, but they are lying to you bro. Do you want to know how stupid it gets? GA has whole heartedly thrown themselves into this recount "to end any and all questions people had about the election." My quote, not theirs. But they have went above and beyond, with recounts of everything, public video of recounts, allowing sides into recounts, being transparent on all levels. Having public press conferences about it every day. And you know what, the republicans are still complaining about it.  Like stfu already. We are doing what you want. The stupid gets too stupid after a while.
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