DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Defense...Where do we go from here?

the part where he had to move seemed to be the problem.

ie , 8 men up front with strict containment on the edges . Shoot you could have put the rookie Elliot over the tackle as you 5th man for example . Kid is pretty quick for a big guy.

Try putting two men up at the line on Andrews and never let him get five yards down field .. So many ways to use what you have.

Not necessarily responding to you Waterdawg.

The defense has made incremental progress. Even the LB play has gotten better over the course of the season. Goodson's pass defense has been better than expected. I've read and seen recently on Building the Browns that he's been excellent at getting the plays in and helping the front get the proper alignment. Malcolm Smith has been the best LB, IMO. He seems to be able to diagnose plays down-for-down better than others.

Still, that doesn't substitute for talent. I think the secondary needs much more attention than the LB corp tho. I really have a man-crush on Tulsa LB, Zaven Collins. I think he might be worth a first-round selection.

No worries Dawg .. Let me be clear , I am not dropping the D problems totally on Woods .. He had help from the FO . At this stage of the season I am looking to the Draft and FA. PERIOD. I just dont want Vernon dropping back in coverage ..lol

I don't claim to know a thing about who is worthy of draft consideration. However, as a strategy, with the offense we have for only another year or two (even with a little regression), I'd be looking to trade some of those mid round picks to move up and ensure you are getting 2 quality starters on defense. Of course, Berry has to hit on talent eval, but the point is there is not a position we could NOT use more talent, and we are not longer a team that is in need of guys all over the place.

If we could come away from the draft with ONLY 2 BDPA, at the end of round 1 and again early-mid round 2, resign a couple of our mid-level players, and get healthier, we can be a top half defense, minimum, and really be a SB contender.

Well, we will get a good bit of talent back from IR and opt-outs, then we will definitely be pulling in some talent from free agency.

If last offseason predictions are true, the salary cap will actually DECREASE next year. This is where all of that extra carryover we've had going for years will be mega-valuable. We should be a VERY attractive team for talent to come to, and we should be positioned to spend quite well. As always, don't expect us to make "shock the world" type signings, but expect us to bring in some young talent entering their 2nd contract that will be here long term. We will likely have a decent handful of signings to go along with the ones we decide to retain.

Then, you can bet that almost the entire draft will focus on defense; depending upon what players fall to our picks, of course. If a Megatron type WR falls to us at pick #32 and our choice is him or the 6th DT on the board, we will probably take that WR. Just sayin'.
Aside from that, we'll be going all D.

Tampa Bay has 2 very good LB's that could hit FA.

Also, do we know what we're getting back from IR? Delpit and Greedy are big ? at this point.

Counting on Delpit or Greedy is a bad strategy ..

I want us to be able to, but I agree that it is probably a bad move strategically.

We should sign a CB or two in free agency, then probably draft a CB/S hybrid fairly high... someone that can play FS if Delpit doesn't make it back, but who can also shift to CB if he does make it back and can claim the starting job. Since we roll with 5 DBs anyway, it still covers the bases and puts the best five out there.

I think we go LB in first (Tulsa kid) and bolster DL. I know the secondary has been problematic, but unlike other position groups, we DO have potential there on the roster. Delpit, Greedy and Ward could make that a strong unit, and while you need depth, you can’t just write them off over injuries.

Tulsa plays Cincinnatti tonight. There are interesting prospects on each defense. Tulsa's defense is supposedly loaded. Cinci is undefeated. Here are the guys I'll be looking at closely.

Tulsa: Zaven Collins LB, #23 and Allie Green IV. CB, #12

Cinci: Ja'Von Hicks S, #3 and Mychal Keys, DE #98

...but it would be foolish to think they're going be available and not address the issue. The healthiest of the 3, Ward in his third season has yet to play a full slate of games. Greedy and Delpit have serious injuries with a more than minute possibility of never being 100%.

With Greedy, nerve damage can be permanent. We've not heard a whole lot regarding the seriousness, but due to the games he's missed it's not a minor issue. Delpit's torn achilles has ended the careers of a lot of players. Today's technology has improved the success rate of this injury, but will he ever be 100%? We can't bank on it.

Hope and prayers that they all come back, but I think we need to draft high and/or spend big for the secondary.

At least as far as Delpit is concerned this article suggest a better than 50% chance for him to come back and contribute.


https://www.healio.com/news/orthopedics/...s-tendon-repair

Do whatever Kevin Durant did. There is literally no difference in his athleticism that I’ve seen.

I wonder if there’s a difference in rehab based on how they had to repair it? Strange that some people can fully recover and some cant

That's still pretty terrible odds. It is more than a 1 in 4 chance that his career is over before taking a snap.... and almost a guarantee that his career is shortened.

Also: "Running backs and linebackers had significantly worse postoperative performance scores compared with preoperative scores. "

Significantly worse compared to what?? They don't say, but it suggests that positions that need to run & cut do worse, although it doesn't mention defensive backs.


The degree of the tear, the location of the tear, etc, all likely contributes to how they recover.... not to mention the basica differences in individual biology. Some may also not rehab as well, or try to do too much too early and create setbacks. Tons of variables.


At best, it seems like only a 50/50 shot of him being back and being able to play, and I would not put money on him playing at the same level he would have before the injury. We NEED to plan on not having him, and if we do, then that's a bonus.

All of your points are valid but they niether guarantees success or failure. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. So yes more Safety help is warranted.

That's actually the entire point

What did you see? I was watching Bama and Florida and missed the Tulsa/ Cinncinati game. Collins seems all over the place regarding the draft rankings. Some site have him fringe first round (25-35) and other sites have him in the high 60s overall. It seems hard to get a read this year.

Collins technique is lacking but they weren't kidding about how a man that big really shouldn't be able to move like he does. He is smooth.

I have a feeling a 3-4 team who wants a versatile, outside edge LB may reach for him in the 1st and sacrifice his rookie season on developing his shedding ability, but for me he's more of an early day two guy. He doesn't attack the hole very aggressively and relies too much on being more athletic than the rest to make his plays.

Did learn he was the valedictorian of his high school and a gymnast as well. Crazy God-given gifts and apparently quite intelligent. I'm going to guess pick 38 to the Dolphins to help them rid themselves of that Kyle Van Noy albatross of a contract before 2022.

He looked rather slow to me. Granted, he is 6'4 and 260, but I think we need a sideline to sideline tackling machine. He does not fit that bill, IMO.

Definitely not a off-ball guy in a 2-LB system. You have to be able to roam, shed, and be aggressive for that. I thought he moved well in space, but when you're not pressing the hole and popping guys, it does look a bit..err.. "laissez faire", maybe?

Apparently I'll be using French slang on a football website today.

He is freakishly smooth in his motions, I'll definitely give him that.

C'est la vie.

J/C
I had to work a 12 yesterday and today so I taped the game. Just saw fragments mostly the 2nd quarter live. Doesn't appear this was his best outing. But judging from his whole body of work I feel like he could upgrade us over Mac Wilson.

That's not really saying much.

J.T. O'Sullivan has a great video series called QB School.
Typically he just highlights offensive plays, but in reviewing that same play from the Ravens game he really rips into the Browns defense.
He has some really great insights into this play and what went wrong and again, reinforces that this is not a talent problem, but a discipline/coaching/teamwork problem.

Hard to watch , but very relevant .

With Vernon definitely not being back, we NEED to sign at least one DE in free agency.

I'd like to see us make a run at Trey Hendrickson of the Saints and/or Leonard Williams of the Giants. Both are very solid against the run and can bring big pressure as a pass rusher.

If we only invest in two positions in Free Agency this offseason, I think it has to be DE and CB. I don't think we've played with a 100% healthy secondary in two entire seasons now.... so, if nothing else, that mandates that our depth be a LOT better than it is.

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slick Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 2564
Well we have been working out cornerbacks. Everytime I try to screen shot it and put it on here it never work. It's on mary kay twitter. I'm assuming this means there is a good chance ward and Johnson will not play
_________________________
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"


Slick, I believe that we have been working out big corners. Maybe it's in response to Claypool?

Don't try and screenshot it. All you have to do is copy the tweet number, click on "enter media tag" and then "twitter post" and paste it into the dialogue box. It won't show on preview, but just submit it and it will be there.

Slick,I looked into the two corners we supposedly tried out today. One was 6'4 and the other was 6'2. The guy we signed, Brian Allen, is 6'3. I'm not saying if Ward will play but I think the reason for the signing is definitely to try and combat those jump balls to Claypool.

If we sign a player they have to sit out six days because of COVID protocol. These guys likely aren’t even playing against the Steelers.

j/c

Going into next year, we really need to do some work on the defense. We've been talking about it all year.

DBs - Ward takes some heat on this board for missing games. And he does. According to Pro-Football-Reference he has missed 11 games over his 3 years. But why do those same people give Greedy Williams a pass? He has missed several more games (20) in one less year. Ward, when on the field, has made a difference. Williams, not so much. Ward has contributed to this playoff run. Williams not at all. Williams is not someone we can count on in the least.

I would put Delpit in there as well. Not a single snap this year, zero contribution to the playoff run. Who knows if he can come back, and if so what will he be? Not to mention the LSU sex scandal where he and Phillips were mentioned.

If either of them contributes to this team it would be a bonus. But we cannot count on it.

The DB room needs a lot of work. Ward is good when he plays. Harrison has played well. Joseph has at at times. Mitchell is good at the slot and for depth. The rest are just guys.

LBs - We had a few (Smith, Takitaki, Goodson) who looked good/capable at times. Phillips has shown speed and flashes of nice play. The rest? Not good.

Mack Wilson is so lost out there. Reminds me of my neighbor's dog when he is in the backyard and there are 5 or 6 squirrels out there running around. There is a lot of action and the dog should be doing something, but he just stands there because he is clueless at what to do. That is Mack Wilson. To top it off he misses a lot of tackles. Played LB at a Power 5 college, I am sure tackling came up from time to time. Should be able to at least do that.

It has been said that the LBs are not a priority in this defensive scheme. That has been made obvious. When I see someone like Myles Jack play I wonder what a LB like that would do for us.

Again, I think the LB room needs a lot of work, but I do not see that happening.

DL - Sucks what happened to Vernon. He really came on as of late while Garrett is still trying to shake the COVID after affects. I think Larry is a free agent. I am sure there will be some turnover here as well. But I think the back of the defense needs more attention.

I agree Cap ... the defense is a big hurdle over the next few months. Our secondary needs overhauled and we need to draft a LB and DE for the front 7, along with acquiring some depth pieces.

Ward’s contract is a tricky situation to me. When he’s on the field he’s worth top 10 money ... but that’s a big when. Not sure how we’ll assess that and how he’ll wanna be paid.

I think we'll switch to really really liking our CB group if we can get 1 more outside CB. Mitchell is a sub/depth guy. He's good as long as he's not consistently slotted as one of your top 2. I thought he was more of a slot corner with some flexibility to play outside, but folks have argued that's not the case and I'm pretty sure I'm getting our corners from the last few years mixed up in my head. Mitchell is valuable so long as you have some talent in front of him on the depth chart. I'm considering Greedy is done for good... and if he comes back healthy then that will just be gravy. We need to acquire 1 starter-caliber CB... I heard that one Patriots dude is an RFA. He's young and the lone bright spot on that Patriots D.

I've liked what I've seen from Takitaki and the rookie. I think we keep hitting LB via the draft unless there's a guy that we really really like (basically all of Tampa Bay's talented LBs are hitting FA). We do need to start worrying about our spending.

DE is a tough one to address. FA means big bucks, and draft is a crapshoot on top of probably requiring our top pick.

We also need a free safety really really bad. This probably should've gone up top of my post.

What I find most confusing is how some fans try and lump Covid into missing games due to injury. Covid is a virus and has been circulating within the team. That's not something a player can prevent. It has now even hit Stefanski and I'm not going to blame him for it either.

It’s almost like there is a pandemic or something.